Level 1 and Level 2 certs W/O fiberglass

[nukemmcssret]

Is it possible to build a rocket for L1 and L2 certification without using fiberglass? At the annual club meeting they were asking for LCOs to volunteer. I said I would but I was told you have to be certified L2 to run the launch control panel. Well I am very allergic to fiberglass and cannot and do not want to be around it. So how do I certify these levels? Can someone else build the rocket? Can I borrow one? I was told I can buy the motor if I tell them I am trying to certify. Any help or answers would be appreciated. Thanks Chief :)

[tbzep]

Sure! I routinely flew a 4" diameter upscale Cherokee D on I and J motors when I was doing HPR and EX. I would have tried a K, but I only had a 38mm mount in it and I didn't want to shred the thing with one of Jim's (DPS) 38mm sledgehammer K's.

I used 3/16 aircraft ply with some epoxy resin to seal the fins, but no glass. The Cherokee's fin size and shape aren't the best for that kind of flying, but they held up well. With a more modest fin shape and size, you can fly the usual 38/54mm I's and J's without issue as long as you aren't going for small diameter high performance type airframes.

BTW, I flew a 4" upscale Goblin with 1/8" non-glassed fins on EX H200's and I300's and never damaged a fin going up. I finally had a chute foul on me and cracked a fin when it landed.

[chadrog]

Who told you have to be L2 to lco? Club rule? Tripoli rule? As far as I know that's not a NAR requirement. I'd go with a Mini-Mag myself.

[brianc]

Who told you have to be L2 to lco? Club rule? Tripoli rule? As far as I know that's not a NAR requirement. I'd go with a Mini-Mag myself.
It's a TRA thang...

(from Tripoli Research Safety Code January 2012)
3.2. Tripoli Research Definitions
3.2.5. Launch Director (LD). A Tripoli Level 2 or Level 3 member who has overall administrative responsibility for the launch.



We (NEFAR) were discussing making all the 2012 launches Research due to
the recent rule changes and that drove the LCO discussions.

Preston- As you've seen here and the other threads, epoxy isn't necessary. Find a rocket
design you like (kit or scratch design) and build light. I suggest something that could
convert from single to dual deploy. Maybe with a 38mm mount. You can borrow
CTI cases and buy the propellant from Bernie. I'm sure we can even find one or two
of the scouts to retrieve the rocket for you after a successful certification!

[chadrog]

It's a TRA thang...
10-4, roger that!

[Mark II]

My L1 rocket contained no composite materials. Just good heavyweight Semroc tubing, plywood and a Semroc balsa nose cone.

If I do any glassing on my Level 2 rocket, it will be minimal. It is quite possible that it won't have any at all, though.

People have reportedly certified for Level 3 using rockets built from paper tubes and plywood, with no composites.

[chadrog]

A fellow at MWP9 flew a successful L3 flight with a bone-stock LOC/Precision kit. I believe he said it was assembled with wood glue as well. I used a Mini-Magg for my L2. Though it was modified for dual deploy, it was still just paper, plywood, glue, and paint.

[captain26]

Yes, entirely possible! I received my L1 about a month ago using a LOC Precision Fantom. Heavy paper tube, plastic cone and plywood fins with no fiberglass whatsoever. Good luck and GO for it!

[Doug Sams]

Is it possible to build a rocket for L1 and L2 certification without using fiberglass? Yes. Absolutely. My L1 was a stock LOC Hi-Tech H45. The only epoxy employed was used to glue in the T-nuts in the motor retention.

My L2 was a scratch build using mostly paper (eg, LOC) tubes, although the central motor tube was phenolic. Again, epoxy was used only in small dabs here and there for motor retention hardware and in fabricating the rail guide mounts.

In my experience, fiberglass is needed when using non-rocket tubes and when using phenolic tubes (to counter their brittle-ness). Otherwise, there's usually a suitable tube/material which doesn't need glassing. (The classic example in my mind is using a LOC 2.56" tube rather than glassing a BT-80. Why bother with all that mess when there's already a compatible tube with adequate strength?)

However, I can't say you can completely build one without epoxy. Sometimes, that's the best way to bond something. No doubt, yellow glue works great for paper-wood joints. And, IIRC, on my L2, I glued the outboard 29mm tubes to my central, 54mm phenolic tube using yellow glue as well. But a little epoxy on the T-nuts grabs where yellow glue and CA are ill suited.

How allergic are you? Did you develop a sensitivity due to exposure? You wouldn't be the first in this hobby. I know at least two DARS fliers who have done that. That said, if you use nitrile gloves AND wear a respirator, can you work with it, at least in the the small batches needed for the occasional T-nut or threaded insert?

BTW, for glass work, there is the alternate option of using polyester resin. While some people find the smell unpleasant, it avoids the epoxy allergy issue.

Doug

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[tbzep]

Nukem's allergic to fiberglass, not epoxy. ;)

[Doug Sams]

Nukem's allergic to fiberglass, not epoxy. ;)Seriously? I wondered that. Normally, when folks say that, they're talking about an epoxy intolerance. But if that's true, the solution is simply - use carbon fiber fabric :)

Doug

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[tbzep]

Seriously? I wondered that. Normally, when folks say that, they're talking about an epoxy intolerance. But if that's true, the solution is simply - use carbon fiber fabric :)

Doug

.
I guess we will have to wait and see. If it's epoxy, a good set of rubber gloves and some good ventilation should do wonders. BTW, I like the smell of fiberglass resin. I bet GH does too. :p

[PaulK]

Is it possible to build a rocket for L1 and L2 certification without using fiberglass? ...The Jan 2012 Sport Rocketry has a LOC/Precision ad, showing a HyperLOC 1600 flying on a K550, assembled with wood glue. Very funny ad, showing a pig, riding what appears to be a fiberglass rocket, with a tagline "Are you flying dangerous super heavy pigs?".

[nukemmcssret]

Well it looks like I can do the Certs. Awsome I sais I would not Certify but that was then, . I will still have to toy with this idea. The coffers are slim right now so it will come hopefully before the year is over.

[Mark II]

Polyester resin is truly foul, nauseating stuff. :p Forget about being allergic to it; one whiff of the stuff will make you wish you were dead. Seriously. :eek:

It is lighter in weight than epoxy though, but not as strong.

Besides, it has a really short pot life, so it's much harder to work with. Laminating epoxy has a much better working time and is overall much easier to use.

I did use epoxy for most (but not all) of the structural bonding in my L1 rocket. It is less grabby than wood glue, so it made some assembly tasks easier. But then, I use it routinely in other rocket builds, too, even in certain limited situations in my low power rockets. (Emphasis there on limited situations.) Even with 3/16" thick plywood fins and epoxy used throughout, my Javelin XL (58" x 2.34") ended up weighing well under 3 lbs. without motor.