New MPC Old kits

[the mole]

This was posted on Space-Modeler Group.

Well, I know a couple of you guys went to Wonderfest. But for those who
might not have an interest in SF stuff, Round 2 did make one pretty cool
announcement that had me jazzed. They have found the molds MPC used for the
1/100 Vostok and Titan IIIC rockets and are planning to reissue them. These
were models that could be built for display or built for rocket flight. They
had a Vostok box on display (an original as a place holder). As I recall,
that kit was pretty well done at a glance. Checking with a buddy, the Titan
IIIC as I understand it has a core that is slightly too small in diameter,
but the boosters in it have accurate dimensions apparently.

I for one hope this is true.

[Initiator001]

Cool!

I never did get a MPC Titan IIIC but I did win an auction for a Vostok 10-15 years ago.

I remember an issue of the old Model Rocketry magazine featured an article on finishing the MPC Titan IIIC in Bare Metal Foil.

I'm looking forward to when these models become available. :)

[Earl]

Did not Quest obtain most of the 'bones' of the old MPC rocketry assets? I guess those molds must not have been part of the deal.

I have both those kits to build at some point.....they are kinda pricey on the auction market currently, but sometimes some 'open box' kits come up that are reasonably priced.

Did anyone ever build and fly either of these back in the day? Can't say I really recall hearing many flight reports on them. I assume they flew decently well?


Earl

[the mole]

I havn't confirmed that Round 2 is going to release this kit. I am only going by what I read in the Space-Modeler Group. I have email round 2 to ask if this is true. No ansure yet. I'm sure when the Wonderfest reports start to come out we might get some more information. Keep your fingers cross.

From what I have read here the Vostok was a flying lump of plastic and barely flew even on C engines because it was so heavy. You could also barely get the chute in the very confined space ahead of the engine in that internal body tube. I would still like to give it a shot.

Here is a flight reports. http://www.rocketreviews.com/mpc-vostoksputnik-jeff-lane.html

[turbofireball]

The two major hobby distributors have already updated their info for MPC thru the end of this year. Neither the Vostok or Titan III are on the list. Next big hobby show is iHobbyExpo in October, where MPC starts to announce 2013 products. So if they decide to release these kits (which I hope they do), it will be well into next year. When they finally do release them, I wouldn't be surprised if the flying parts are left out and they are sold as nostalgic plastic model kits.

[Jerry Irvine]

I wouldn't expect to sell many as model rockets, just like before, but the advent of small reloadables has made these models flyable. If one were to use competition style 1/4 mil virgin poly chutes with 16 thread shrouds, they would pack really small and they could be protected by the heavy mass of plastic with a slide ring. You have to work hard to make that POS fly. I wonder if they could mold a far lower density plastic?

Jerry

[Rocketcrab]

I have always wondered what happened to the molds for those two kits. I scored a Titan III from an auction years ago, but could never snag the Vostok. The MPC kits came out at the height of my first incarnation in the hobby, when I was about 13 and couldn't afford them! :rolleyes:

[the mole]

Well I have search the internet for the last 2 days trying to find out if I could find out if Round 2 is going to release the 1/100 Vostok and Titan IIIC rockets. I can't find a thing.

Sorry if I got anyone hopes up for these kits, but till I see a photo with the kit in it like the one that was said saw at Wonderfest I'm not sure this is true.

Sorry for now.

[turbofireball]

Please see my reply in post #5, it answers your question about the kits.

[the mole]

Turbofireball, after reading your reply for the second time I see what you'r saying. We can keep the hope alive for these models. I know there are smart enought people on this list to make these model fly.

[blackshire]

I havn't confirmed that Round 2 is going to release this kit. I am only going by what I read in the Space-Modeler Group. I have email round 2 to ask if this is true. No ansure yet. I'm sure when the Wonderfest reports start to come out we might get some more information. Keep your fingers cross.

From what I have read here the Vostok was a flying lump of plastic and barely flew even on C engines because it was so heavy. You could also barely get the chute in the very confined space ahead of the engine in that internal body tube. I would still like to give it a shot.

Here is a flight reports. http://www.rocketreviews.com/mpc-vostoksputnik-jeff-lane.htmlI haven't been able to find a flight report for the MPC Titan III-C, but I did find a scan of the kit instructions (see: www.ninfinger.org/models/kitplans/mpc9002.pdf ). Judging by the illustrations (and the fact that this model used an 18 mm motor in a "sub-caliber" motor mount tube), it looks like the model's kraft paper "liner" tube inside the Titan core was T-25 tubing (25 mm outside diameter), which would have had adequate volume to house the parachute. Only the C6-4 motor was recommended for the Titan III-C, which indicates that it was--as might be expected--a heavy model for its size. This does not, however, necessarily mean that it was a lousy flier because other, popular kits have had only one "Recommended Engine" (Estes LTV Scout, Estes Space Shuttle, etc.).

[the mole]

I agree that these models could be made flight worthy. Looking at the instruction I can see some parts that one could leave out to lighten the models up.

Here is a scan of the Vostok instruction: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/mpc/mpc3-0700/mpc3-0700.pdf

[blackshire]

I agree that these models could be made flight worthy. Looking at the instruction I can see some parts that one could leave out to lighten the models up.

Here is a scan of the Vostok instruction: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/mpc/mpc3-0700/mpc3-0700.pdfAgreed. With today's improved injection-molding technology, such "display or flight" plastic scale models could be produced having lighter, thinner-gauge (yet sufficiently strong) plastic parts. The kraft paper "liner tubes" could be fitted into molded "half-ring" centering frames in each body half in order to create small insulating air spaces, so that the ejection charge heat wouldn't warp the plastic parts.

[Jerry Irvine]

Agreed. With today's improved injection-molding technology, such "display or flight" plastic scale models could be produced having lighter, thinner-gauge (yet sufficiently strong) plastic parts. Closed cell foam would be substantially lighter and barely strong enough for a model rocket. Display models are not weight sensitive and favor mass to reduce frangibility.

My talks with some folks at Estes indicates they simply make new molds now when they adopt an old part. I suspect they not only benefit from non-damaged molds (ie. screwdriver damaged Alpha from the 90's). As a side effect they get reduced labor cost mold makers which they can translate to more cavities and substantially reduced part cost.

Jerry

[Bill]

Did not Quest obtain most of the 'bones' of the old MPC rocketry assets? I guess those molds must not have been part of the deal.



Just as well that Quest does not have the molds. Flying the Vostok on their C6-3 would be a disaster, so they might never have rereleased that kit for liability reasons.

Did I say I hate motors with the same designation but different thrust curves from competing manufacturers? Makes life difficult explaining to newbies why they cannot fly that model with that motor...it is the laws of physics, not a bias in the club range rules in favor of E**** or against Q****... It is often easiest to just trade them an E* motor for their Q* one.

I had the Vostok in a previous life. Like the review said, even a thin mylar chute was tight in that small body tube. My oversized flight fins were molded in white plastic instead of clear.

I know of a place which has one of the old kits for sale. Not on sale as he wanted much more for it than I could justify paying.

As an aside, Round 2 is the company which is doing the reissue of the old AMT Man in Space set, so they see money to be made in bringing back old kits.


Bill

[carbons4]

I think they would sell if done right. As Jerry said about weight issues and flying on early C engines, motor technology as well as manufacturing has improved. I also guess there are several like myself that wanted one as a kid but never got one.

[carbons4]

Lot cheaper to make molds today with 5 axis cnc mills and wire/sinker edm's too. Lot of molds are still made here and sent overseas to manufacture parts.

[RWmarlow]

I had one of the MPC Vostok kit's....the mylar chute barely fit the tube...and after the first flight on a C6-3 , i used the Cox D8-3 exclusively but never flew it in high winds....

[AcroRay]

I'm looking forward to both of these, from both plastic-kit builder and flyer perspectives. They look like an interesting challenge, and I'm curious to see how well they fly. I'm hoping Round 2 brings them to fruition.

Unless they invest in all new tooling (which I have the sneaking suspicion they won't, as the profit margin on these may not justify it), we're likely to see the same weight and issues of the original kits with regard to the plastic. The original tooling wouldn't likely be applicable to alternative materials. Molds for ABS injection molding are pretty finely-tuned to just one material.

It'll all have to wait until we see test shots, though. That they only had a placeholder box for display tells me they probably haven't been able to properly assess the state of the tooling, and might have just been doing it to generate some more buzz for Round 2 overall than specifically for those two kits. If they were in the same hands that I found a lot of orphan 60's/70's model kit tooling, I'm not certain there's a guarantee the useable state of them. That era's tooling was durable, quality stuff. But it can suffer over the years if it isn't regularly tended to.

[the mole]

An update: I received this message from Mat Irvine over at space models group.

Only the Vostok was on show, and as an original issue. I suspect Sven
has it somewhere on his 'site, and it's on page 46 of Creating Space.

Also by "new" I assume you mean "new reissue" as the kits were first
issued in 1970.

mat

Mat Irvine

I'm not sure how to find Sven site but if someone knows of this site please tell me how to get there.

So now my hopes of this kit being reissue is a good possible. :)

[ghrocketman]

The old 18mm Cox D8-3 "baby D" has been out of production for FAR too long and actually fills a needed niche that no other motor currently fills. It was GREAT in the Mars Lander, Estes 1284 Space Shuttle, and other large/heavy 18mm rockets. It was only like 13n-sec, but that's quite a bit over a 9n-sec C motor and often made the difference between a good flight and barely flying. I do not know if that motor is possible nowadays in a standard 18mm length casing as apparently BP has gotten weaker over the years. Why BP is weaker has not been satisfactorily ever explained to me. KNO3 and Sulfur should not change as long as same grade is always used. Possibly it has something to do with charcoal quality.

The Aerotech composite SU 18mm D10 is close but is a whole lot more impulse than what may be wanted or needed.

[carbons4]

Charcoal and/or binder. I would think if you could make it once, you could make it again. I would guess it's more of the "no one wants to mess with a D motor that is just a tad over a full C. I would like to try out some of the reloadable 18mm composite motors.

[ghrocketman]

It was more like a full C plus a full B motor. Quite a bit more than a C.
I actually used to like to fly them in my Citation Patriot too....delay was short, but flight better than a C6-5.

The booster D8-0 was great for sending an Astron Farside into ORBIT.
D8-0 to D8-0 to C6-7 with a LOOOOOOOOONG streamer for recovery.

[turbofireball]

Round 2 - MPC has told me that they have yet to test the tooling on these two kits, but they are planning to do so. Also, if they do decide to release them it will not be until at least sometime in 2013 (2012 is not a possibility). Until they test the tooling , there would be no definitive info on release date or what will be included in the kits.

[Chas Russell]

Thanks for the information about the kit status turbofireball. I have both the Vostok and the Titan III kits. I removed the T20 tubes from both decades ago to make payload altitude models when the NAR standard payload was a one ounce lead weight. The tubes were not readily available at the time.

[Rocketcrab]

Originally Posted by Earl
Did not Quest obtain most of the 'bones' of the old MPC rocketry assets? I guess those molds must not have been part of the deal.



Now that I think on it some more, I thought I'd read years ago that AVI wound up with the molds after MPC got out of the model rocketry biz in the early 70's. Anyone?

[Jerry Irvine]

The C5 was the D8 replacement. Uberfill motor. If Estes were to make a 3.75" 18mm casing they could do a C14 and totally piss off GH, as well as a full C7 or 8, and a D4 cheater motor.

I suspect this is not on the immediate horizon because Estes adds motors slowly and carefully. They just (in relative terms) added the C11 and E9 and E12. That was a big deal for them. The next likely motor is a high thrust D, like a D30 or some such (which is a B14 surrogate!!).

BP is not dead. APCP as made now is overpriced and is niche.

I would love to see a KP enhanced (5-8%) BP motor from Estes in the 24mm form factor. It is a drop in technology.

I have a turn-key motor/propellant which is drop in to the Hobbico business model. I suppose I could deploy it myself on a smaller scale. Fine.

Model rocketry is a tiny market as compared to 3-4 McDonald's local locations. So don't expect miracles. I suggest everyone reading this get a local city after school program to adopt model rocketry, you know, like the 70's.

Jerry

CEO of what?

[Earl]

Originally Posted by Earl
Did not Quest obtain most of the 'bones' of the old MPC rocketry assets? I guess those molds must not have been part of the deal.



Now that I think on it some more, I thought I'd read years ago that AVI wound up with the molds after MPC got out of the model rocketry biz in the early 70's. Anyone?

Yes, AVI did obtain the MPC 'stuff' first after MPC got out of the business, but when Quest started up they somehow got what was left at that point (Quest founder Bill Stine's father G. Harry had ties to MPC and possibly had 'in roads' into helping Quest pick up what was left of MPC/AVI when Quest was founded).

I'm just assuming on most of this though.....anyone have the straight scoop?


Earl

[Jerry Irvine]

Originally Posted by Earl
Did not Quest obtain most of the 'bones' of the old MPC rocketry assets? I guess those molds must not have been part of the deal. Now that I think on it some more, I thought I'd read years ago that AVI wound up with the molds after MPC got out of the model rocketry biz in the early 70's. Anyone?My understanding is that after the General Mills/MPC explosion in Corona, CA they sold the motors (WI) and motor assets to AVI who stored the motors resulting in them being temperature cycled and decertified.

AVI made more varieties of BP motors than all other vendors combined. I suspect the volumes were quite insufficient, but our club, Claremont Rocket Society ordered as many of each size as budget would allow. We may have been their biggest dealer.

They were pretty reliable too. The usual BP motor problems of course and a few added because of the drop-in delay tech they used.

Stine was instrumental in the GM/MPC deal. Had there not been accidental deaths at MPC Corona or Quest Yuma, the whole world would be different (ly).

I believe Stine Jr being a rocket zealot has tried to acquire all AVI and FSI motor assets and as many mold assets as are findable and payable. Bill is a "true believer".

Earth (Jerry) to Bill. Engineering and standards have improved. The old molds are less useful than you think. Doubt me? MOON GO!!

Jerry

[Earl]

My understanding is that after the General Mills/MPC explosion in Corona, CA they sold the motors (WI) and motor assets to AVI who stored the motors resulting in them being temperature cycled and decertified.

AVI made more varieties of BP motors than all other vendors combined. I suspect the volumes were quite insufficient, but our club, Claremont Rocket Society ordered as many of each size as budget would allow. We may have been their biggest dealer.

They were pretty reliable too. The usual BP motor problems of course and a few added because of the drop-in delay tech they used.

Stine was instrumental in the GM/MPC deal. Had there not been accidental deaths at MPC Corona or Quest Yuma, the whole world would be different (ly).

I believe Stine Jr being a rocket zealot has tried to acquire all AVI and FSI motor assets and as many mold assets as are findable and payable. Bill is a "true believer".

Earth (Jerry) to Bill. Engineering and standards have improved. The old molds are less useful than you think. Doubt me? MOON GO!!

Jerry


Jerry-

What was the Corona explosion? Not familiar with that event in MPC history.


Earl

[Royatl]

An update: I received this message from Mat Irvine over at space models group.

Only the Vostok was on show, and as an original issue. I suspect Sven
has it somewhere on his 'site, and it's on page 46 of Creating Space.

Also by "new" I assume you mean "new reissue" as the kits were first
issued in 1970.

mat

Mat Irvine

I'm not sure how to find Sven site but if someone knows of this site please tell me how to get there.

So now my hopes of this kit being reissue is a good possible. :)

I assume he means Sven Knudson, over on www.ninfinger.org

[Jerry Irvine]

What was the Corona explosion?It ended BP motor production for MPC/GM. I think Fred Shecter actually has more details in his head than I do. I tried to get whatever was public and not much was and I didn't get why. I didn't go to the site or the local FD.

[stefanj]

Data points:

AVI / Myke Bergensky (sp?) sold tons and tons of MPC parts, kits, and motors until 1979 or so.

He also sold old stock MRI kits (his pre-MPC company), and later made new runs of these models using the MPC parts (which were based on MRI parts) and xeroxed instruction sheets.

I remember buying a Vostok and Titan III from AVI.

RE motors, after running through lots of MPC-labled and packaged motors, AVI sold 18mm motors -- clearly based on the MPC design -- with AVI labels. I dimly remember actually having and using some of these. Were these old stock that was relabeled, or new runs of motors? Not sure. But AVI was able to make its "Gold Line" motors, so they had the facilities to host the MPC motor making machines.

[Royatl]

My understanding is that after the General Mills/MPC explosion in Corona, CA

I've never heard about an MPC explosion, just the Cox explosion, the Quest fire, and two or three Estes accidents including the first one in Denver.

Earth (Jerry) to Bill. Engineering and standards have improved. The old molds are less useful than you think. Doubt me? MOON GO!!

Jerry

ROFL!

[Shreadvector]

It ended BP motor production for MPC/GM. I think Fred Shecter actually has more details in his head than I do. I tried to get whatever was public and not much was and I didn't get why. I didn't go to the site or the local FD.

Cox had the motor making explosion. motors were pressed using dry pellets and they would occasionally burp in the machine under pressure. "burp" = pellet would ignite under pressure.

The machine burped one day, set off a tray of pellets which in turn either shook the building or sent a fireball up to the rafters where BP dust had accumulated and there was a secondary larger explosion which blew out the roof/wall(s), sent drums of BP pellets flaming/rolling away and burned/killed people.

Contact Martin Bowitz for more accurate details. He was selected for jury duty and they did not excuse him so he was on the jury for that trial.

Nothing to do with MPC or General Mills (the other "GM").

[ghrocketman]

I would hope he voted 'not guilty' or 'NO preponderance of evidence' against Cox. Dangerous job making rocket motors. The workers should have to sign an iron-clad waiver against ANY safety related lawsuits if they wanted the job....otherwise = NO HIRE. Plain and simple. Can't take the heet, git outta the kitchen.

[Shreadvector]

I would hope he voted 'not guilty' or 'NO preponderance of evidence' against Cox. Dangerous job making rocket motors. The workers should have to sign an iron-clad waiver against ANY safety related lawsuits if they wanted the job....otherwise = NO HIRE. Plain and simple. Can't take the heet, git outta the kitchen.

You call for a verdict yet I never stated what the charges were, who the charges were against, or stated any other scientific facts about the case.

Cox did not make motors like Estes did/does. Humans inside the motor making building while the machine is operating is not a good idea.

I still have not stated what the charges were, who was the defendant and what the verdict was.

[ghrocketman]

Uhhh....as long as the verdict favors the motor manufacturing company, I don't need to be bothered by nuisance facts as long as the motor supply keeps on a-rollin.

[AcroRay]

Uhhh....as long as the verdict favors the motor manufacturing company, I don't need to be bothered by nuisance facts as long as the motor supply keeps on a-rollin.

"It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones." - Sherlock Holmes

:chuckle:

[ghrocketman]

Darned tootin !
Keeping the machinery rolling to supply the customer demand shall not be less than PRIORITY/JOB ONE above ALL else !
THIRD is MORE than plenty for what is referenced in the photo. NOT joking.

[carbons4]

I believe what Jerry said about Quest and the MPC assets. The guy I know that worked at FSI towards the end said they had recieved a lot of balsa in MPC boxes. I know that Larry had gotten to know Bill pretty good from their business dealings on motors. This is speculation but Larry probably worked out some trade for motors he was making for Quest.
The dangers of making BP motors are VERY real!!! I remember back in the pre historic days (1970's), I remember Lonnie telling me that Gary R. and Scott D. thought we were nuts for our BP motors. Of course we thought they were nuts with some of the motors they were making. Making BP motors , it can go bad real quick. Watching out for any static sparks, keeping humidity right, not paying attention to your press and tooling. It doesn't take much. The only fire/explosion(and it was not really a expolsion it was a over pressurizing of a structure) was when a guy got a hot bit into a F100-xx. I did see the aftermath of Lonnie hand loading a 21mm motor when mandril hit the spindle and shot it out of his hand. You dont pay attention and get careless it can go bad real fast.
Myke Bregenski (I think we all butcher his name) real nice guy. I met him couple times. About ten years back he was selling some of his motor making books on ebay and I just missed them. Myke always caught flack for his engine ratings( F23.48273-xx ). Had a Physics professor that would ride our a$$ about carrying a answer out to too many places. All the testing equipment I ever saw back then was not hyper accurate. I doubt those tolarences in the tenths could be held.

[Rocketnut]

Hi all, I have an old MPC TITAN III-C up for sale on ebay right now and for the next week. If interested do a search under rockets-r-us. Thanks.