Almost got arrested today!

[dlazarus6660]

I went to Manchester Airport to watch Air Force One take off. I parked in the usual public parking spot to watch it leave. They had three types of security there, Secret Service, Londonderry PD AND a U.S. Marshall with a bomb sniffing dog. The Marshall walked the dog around to all the parked cars and stopped at mine.

Guess what I had in my car?

Rockets and spent motor casings.

When I walked over to my car the dog started barking at me. I was wearing the jacket I wore at yesterdays launch.
Plenty of BP residue there.
I was ask to open the car after I explained what was in my car and showed the officers, all five of them, my box of rocket junk and one rocket glider I got for free. BTW, the glider was under a blanket and the officers thought I was hiding a bomb!

I knew my rights and should have refused to open my car, but I did not want to get arrested plus I did not have the bail money.
Cooperation went a long way. :D
The last time BO came to town, none of that was in place, complete shock on everybody that was there.
I guess Clinton was with him too!

Harold, stop shaking your head.

[SecretSquirrel]

I got arrested on the way home from a launch once. I was pulled over for speeding and the cop saw my launch controller in the back seat, well I saw a launch controller. He saw a box with wires coming out of it and a button. So I was detained until the bomb dog showed up and went nuts because of the engines in the car. They arrested me on suspicion and as the cuffs went on one of the officers informed me that anything I said would be held against me. So I said, "Katy Perry."

That cop lied!

[chrism]

Model Rocketry is NOT a crime. I hope the authorities don't get their undies in a bunch!

Don, If you would have said "Justin Beiber," you would still be in the pokey!

[Jerry Irvine]

BO is probably "more likely" to be attacked right before or after an election tactically.

[Jerry Irvine]

I got arrested on the way home from a launch once. I was pulled over for speeding and the cop saw my launch controller in the back seat, well I saw a launch controller. He saw a box with wires coming out of it and a button. So I was detained until the bomb dog showed up and went nuts because of the engines in the car. They arrested me on suspicion and as the cuffs went on one of the officers informed me that anything I said would be held against me. So I said, "Katy Perry."

That cop lied!When possession of a legally purchased from Wal-Mart product is probable cause to justify a detainment or arrest, we have a societal problem. Whether it be a police training problem or a search and seizure policy problem, or a law, or regulation problem, or all four, we have a problem.

Proposed solution. Default to freedom policy on voluntary search. All findings are dropped on field or judicial review. After all. their "concern" is "immediate issues". Proposed course of action, not mere status.

I got arrested on the way home from a launch once.
That cop lied!The cops are allowed to lie and you are not according to a supreme court ruling. Really bad ruling. We are the soverigns, not the government agents.

Jerry

[carbons4]

The problem is that common sence is not that common any more.
Did they act like any less of dicks after they figured out you were not aakmid the dead terrorist?

[tbzep]

They did exactly what they were trained to do. Well trained dogs are almost always right, at least more often than humans. The dog was right in this case. He smelled something that is used in low explosives and as projectile propellant and the officers had to react quickly. Common sense tells me when a well trained dog goes berzerk like that, some bad stuff or at least the residue from it is in that car. Unless they were @$$hats about the whole thing, they didn't overreact. I'm all for liberty, but sheesh, do you have any idea what that 747 cost? I'd hate to lose such an awesome plane because the officers wanted to be cool instead of thorough! ;)

[carbons4]

Nothing about "being cool". There is doing your job and being an ass. You can do one without the other. He wasn't waring a c4 vest. How many of them and one of him? On a side note, how close CAN you park to air force one??? The next county? I have seen it fly out of downtown when W was still pres. THe entire airport was closed. Being coopertive and not making them get a search warrant and opening things up for investigation would justify a bit of curtisy. If he was going for the trunk with a loaded stinger thats one thing. Guess I still believe in that silly inocent till proven guilty. If I am outnumbered 3 or 5 to 1 unless Im yellin yie yie yie yie, I might not be the hood they train that everyone is. I don't want to see a cool plane hurt too but there is always room for common sence............or there used to be.

[blackshire]

I got arrested on the way home from a launch once. I was pulled over for speeding and the cop saw my launch controller in the back seat, well I saw a launch controller. He saw a box with wires coming out of it and a button. So I was detained until the bomb dog showed up and went nuts because of the engines in the car. They arrested me on suspicion and as the cuffs went on one of the officers informed me that anything I said would be held against me. So I said, "Katy Perry."

That cop lied!Having a purchase receipt for model rocket motors and kits (not necessarily even for the ones you have in your vehicle) with you might help, especially if the receipt is from Wal-Mart or some similar, familiar vendor. Also:

Although I would never try this or advocate that anyone else should try it, what happened to you (and your reply to the constable) has made me wonder what would happen if someone gave "negative" answers to certain common legal questions. For example:

When an arresting officer concludes the reading of a suspect's rights with the question, "Do you understand?", if the suspect replies, "No," what is the officer supposed to do? (I suppose the officer might repeat the reading of the suspect's rights, but what if the suspect never says "Yes" to the closing question, "Do you understand?") In addition:

When a witness is sworn in in court and is asked, "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?", what would the court do if the witness did not say "Yes," but instead said any of the following three things:

[1] "No."

[2] "I will say whatever serves my purposes."

[3] "I am an anarchist, and I do not believe in *any* laws or courts."

[carbons4]

I do like the,"anything you say can and will be held against you " answer only my answer would be more of a Charlese Theron answer. You can also come back with the ,"so help me ME"??? on the stand. Also ask ,"define ANYTHING"?

[luke strawwalker]

I do like the,"anything you say can and will be held against you " answer only my answer would be more of a Charlese Theron answer. You can also come back with the ,"so help me ME"??? on the stand. Also ask ,"define ANYTHING"?

Yeah, there's a big difference between "anything" and "everything"... :)

On the Miranda rights... basically it's a CYA thing... when I was in the academy back in 96, the Miranda decision (hence the name "Miranda rights"-- stemmed from a court case back in the 60's IIRC where a "retarded" guy was arrested and the cops used tricky methods to get him to spill the beans... a hotshot lawyer convinced the court that it was an abuse of power, because the retarded guy didn't "understand that he had rights" and the cops made no effort to inform him of them (which begs the question, would he have understood them anyway if they did??) Anyway, basically court rulings fairly recently before I entered the academy had ruled that reading the Miranda rights wasn't absolutely necessary, BUT, most departments, ours included, still "required" the arresting officer to read the Miranda warning before conducting any questioning of the accused, just to CYA... never know what those slick-willy lawyers will turn on you next...

I had a Mexican buddy of mine that was returning from a trip to Mexico in his van one time. He had it packed full with stuff that he was bringing back... (got real cheap down there). He got pulled over for speeding and the cop was kind of an @$$ about it and asked for permission to search the van... He told him, "no". He wasn't hiding anything, he was just tired and didn't feel like waiting around for the guy to dig through everything and then having to put it all back... Now under the exigent circumstances rules for search, a vehicle on the public highway has no "reasonable expectation" of privacy and does not require a search warrant... BUT, you DO have to have "probable cause" to search... IOW, an "articulable reason" why you need to search the vehicle then and there... without it, it's an illegal search. Probable cause can be a dope or bomb dog alerting on the vehicle, or furtive movements, changing stories about where you've been, where you're going, etc... smell of alcohol or drugs, paraphenalia, whatever... but you DO have to have an articulable reason to explain WHY you felt it necessary to search the vehicle over the owners objections. The cop didn't have any, and after a while, couldn't come up with any, so he gave him a speeding ticket and let him go. You have the right to say "no" and refuse permission to search, but then that puts the ball back into the officer's hands-- he can make the decision to search anyway if he has probable cause under the exigent circumstances rule (where it's not feasible to wait until a search warrant is obtained from a judge) or he can detain you and get a warrant to search. (But again, basically the rules for getting a warrant are showing "probable cause" which, if you already have enough PC to get a warrant, you have enough to do an exigent circumstances search... the warrant is merely CYA at that point... )

Either way, the car is getting searched and you're not going anywhere anytime soon til they're satisfied.

What I find funny is how most folks, KNOWING they have dope or whatever in the car, STILL give permission to search, as if the cops won't find it. Most of the time, if it's in there, they'll find it, period. Saying "No" then puts the burden on the cop... he must decide if he has enough probable cause to search, or to get a warrant... if not, legally he cannot search, unless of course you give him permission... then he doesn't have to have ANY probable cause because he already obtained your consent... (basically... a good lawyer could argue this).

Later! OL JR :)

[tmacklin]

I once had a chat with the former Chief of Police about searches, warranted and otherwise. He told me that he used to be a K-9 handler with a sheriff's department in another county and that he could make his dog "alert" with a secret command thereby gaining probable cause where none actually existed. If nothing was found, he could blame the dog (and the dog wasn't talking!)

The Fourth amendment? We don't need no stinkin Fourth amenment!

[luke strawwalker]

I once had a chat with the former Chief of Police about searches, warranted and otherwise. He told me that he used to be a K-9 handler with a sheriff's department in another county and that he could make his dog "alert" with a secret command thereby gaining probable cause where none actually existed. If nothing was found, he could blame the dog (and the dog wasn't talking!)

The Fourth amendment? We don't need no stinkin Fourth amenment!

Yeah, part of the reason I'm not a cop... more corruption and nonsense than you'd imagine.

I had an instructor in the academy, an old cop that had been shot and lost an eye... he trained us in building searches. He was telling us stories, and one of them was that sometimes we'd go out to a call of a building broken into, and have to search it at 3 am, not knowing if someone was in the shadows pointing a gun at us, yet sometimes he'd worry more about the cop behind us than the 'bad guy' in front of us...

If that doesn't get you thinking, I don't know what will...

later! OL JR :)

[sandman]

Every kid I knew or heard about in high school that was a bully and liked to pick on anybody smaller than him, especially with his buddies around became a cop.

The vast majority of them wound up getting "removed" from the police force eventually.

No, I was never picked on. I was big enough to take care of myself.

I once had a cop who was going in the opposite direction as me drive around a country block (the country blocks in Michigan are a mile on a side) at what must have me breakneck speeds to catch up to me just to tell me I had a burned out brake light.

The first thing he asked me after seeing my licence was, "What are you doing so far from home?"

I replied...Excuse me? What business is it of yours?

He answered, " Sir, you had better show me more respect!"

My reply was, "Hell, no! You have no right to ask me that. You are not the Gestapo!"

Then I'll have to write you a ticket.

"Go right ahead!"

We were already outside the car where he showed me the burned out light so I opened the trunk and replace the bulb with a bulb from one of the back-up lights. That took me about 4 seconds to change.

There is no law that says you have to have two back-up lights.

He was still writing the ticket when I asked him what he was writing for the infraction on the ticket.

He said, The burned out brake light."

"What burned out brake light?" As I stepped on the brake pedal.

He stormed back into is cruiser and drove off without saying anything.

[Doug Sams]

....yet sometimes he'd worry more about the cop behind us than the 'bad guy' in front of us... That same issue comes up in defending one's home. In the dark of night, with your heart pounding in your chest, are you fixing to shoot an evil intruder? Or your teenage kid sneaking in way late?

That said, that's why cops train, so they have a routine to follow in those situations. It helps overcome the mistakes made in the heat of battle.

Doug

.

[carbons4]

I can't remember exactly how many times mine or my friends cars were searched and at the end barney fife said something to the effect of "well we didn't search your car". You mean you did not take it apart????? We did not have anything illeagal ,now my 3" Gerber pocket knife I always carried , the way he picked it up after I handed it to him you would think it was 2000 degrees as he tossed it on the hood. (Thanks jerk wad,my paint job really appraciates it). Oh there had been burgleries in the area and they were just checking. My mom and my grandmother were the two biggest busy boddies in the neighborhood. They KNEW what was going on in the neighborhood. This was back when people still talked to one another. The Raytown paper always listed all the break ins and such every week. NO there were no break in's in the area. Now some guys I knew down the street had the same two guys pull them over on the other side of town,5-6 miles away, the same night, giving the same bull**** excuse. I realize all cops are not bad but I am jaded...................

[luke strawwalker]

That same issue comes up in defending one's home. In the dark of night, with your heart pounding in your chest, are you fixing to shoot an evil intruder? Or your teenage kid sneaking in way late?

That said, that's why cops train, so they have a routine to follow in those situations. It helps overcome the mistakes made in the heat of battle.

Doug

.

Yeah, well, that's NOT what he was getting at... he was talking about CHARACTER... and yeah, I saw some REAL PRIZES alright...

I tried to help this young kid when I was in the academy... a real block of wood... he was going to turn 21 just around the time we graduated, which is what made it possible for him to get into the academy... I was a "block of wood" at that age too, so I figured I should do whatever I could to help him... sorta "took him under my wing" so to speak.

Thing is, he was pretty useless... when he started getting us into trouble, I started keeping my distance. He took the tests three times and still flunked out... oh well...

I recently saw some friends from my academy days... turns out this blockhead is now in the joint... seems he shook his girlfriend's baby to death a few years ago... moron...

There was an incident around the time I graduated, an officer involved shooting... we saw all the video and IMHO it wasn't right. One guy jumps out shooting and since he's shooting, everybody else draws down and opens up too... the "bad guy" is dead and nothing else happened, but it was enough to really make me think...

Later! OL JR :)

[carbons4]

If these idiots had some charactor, not they were charactors, would have NEVER happened. My brother was on sherrifs reserve for a few years. Everyone that was on his trap shooting team were all law enforcement. All older but stand up guys it seemed. Every one had tons of story. Yes this was 25-30 years ago but i guess i still believe

[Doug Sams]

The Raytown paper always listed all the break ins and such every week. Raytown where? Kentucky?

Doug

.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Yeah, part of the reason I'm not a cop... more corruption and nonsense than you'd imagine.

I had an instructor in the academy, an old cop that had been shot and lost an eye... he trained us in building searches. He was telling us stories, and one of them was that sometimes we'd go out to a call of a building broken into, and have to search it at 3 am, not knowing if someone was in the shadows pointing a gun at us, yet sometimes he'd worry more about the cop behind us than the 'bad guy' in front of us...
That happened here when I was in college. I was coming back from a night in the bars of Clifton, up by UC, and stopped in for a little late-night snack at Dixie Chili, which was pretty much a post-bar tradition. We were sitting out by the front window that faced Monmouth Street, which is one way heading north. We heard sirens, and a cruiser came down Monmouth heading south, screaming around the turn to 8th street and barely making it. Turns out there was a report of a prowler, and one cop who was checking the area shot another cop who was doing the same. The cop that was killed was the older brother of a guy I went to school with. They did find a guy skulking around with a gun, but as I heard it, it was an old, rusty .38 with no cylinder. He looked like he'd "resisted arrest" when they had his picture in the paper the next day, but it wasn't long before they pieced things together and realized they had a friendly fire incident.

[STRMan]

When I went to LE school in the Coast Guard to become a boarding officer, we trained in an old building, simulating sweeping through a vessel to search for hidden illegal aliens. We had no ammo in our weapons, but they were cocked and the safety was off. It was stressed by the instructors NOT to pull that trigger unless we felt we were in immediate danger. We would take turns hiding in various rooms and cubby holes. When it was my turn to hide, as a group of my fellow trainees were sweeping through, looking for me, as they got close, I let out this blood curdling scream. They got me and took me into custody, but the instructor checked, and every single one of them pulled the trigger and would have discharged their weapon and likely me, even though I was unarmed.

I'm glad I'm out of law enforcement.

[Bill]

We were already outside the car where he showed me the burned out light so I opened the trunk and replace the bulb with a bulb from one of the back-up lights. That took me about 4 seconds to change.


These days, he'd probably have his gun on you the moment you reached into that trunk.


Bill

[Bill]

Either way, the car is getting searched and you're not going anywhere anytime soon til they're satisfied.


The Border Patrol checkpoint outside of the tiny town of Sierra Blanca in West Texas has been in the news in the past couple of years as several celebrities have been busted for drugs there. Apparent, they were on their way from California to Austin with some of their best stuff and did not imagine being checked at that geographical chokepoint.

Some daytime TV talk show host tried to be funny and suggested an alternate route across the southern part of the country along Interstate 40. Well, I have to tell you that I spent lots of time in Amarillo and there were always news stories about state troopers pulling a car over along that route for a traffic infraction and finding drugs. When will smugglers learn to always signal lane changes and never speed?


Bill

[sandman]

These days, he'd probably have his gun on you the moment you reached into that trunk.


Bill

Actually he asked me to get out of the car so he could show me that the light was out.

[tbzep]

Nothing about "being cool". There is doing your job and being an ass. You can do one without the other. He wasn't waring a c4 vest. How many of them and one of him? On a side note, how close CAN you park to air force one??? The next county? I have seen it fly out of downtown when W was still pres. THe entire airport was closed. Being coopertive and not making them get a search warrant and opening things up for investigation would justify a bit of curtisy. If he was going for the trunk with a loaded stinger thats one thing. Guess I still believe in that silly inocent till proven guilty. If I am outnumbered 3 or 5 to 1 unless Im yellin yie yie yie yie, I might not be the hood they train that everyone is. I don't want to see a cool plane hurt too but there is always room for common sence............or there used to be.

Common sense tells me that if I go to see AF-1 or the POTUS and I've got black powder residue on myself or my vehicle, very interesting things might happen.

Common sense also tells me that if a detection dog comes near me while I'm waiting for AF-1, very interesting things absolutely will happen no matter what kind of attitude the authorities have.

Common sense tells me once again that if an explosive dog hits me or my car while I'm near AF-1 and I have something in my car covered with a blanket, I will be lucky if I don't get cuffed immediately with considerable, if not extreme prejudice. Seems to me that the officers involved were pretty cool or else dlazarus6660 would be telling us about how he got detained and questioned for 10 hours.

Common sense tells me one more thing. Old spent motors in my car from a launch that took place a month earlier would be the last thing on my mind until the dog hit on them. Then I'd start calling myself some interesting names under my breath. :p

As for your questions:

1. You're right, he wasn't wearing a C-4 vest, but the dog can't talk and say to the handler, "Hey dude, it's just B6-4 motor residue so chill out!" Every hit the dog makes must be treated the same way because of the seriousness of who/what they are protecting. If my family was on that plane with the president, I'd be a little pissed if they didn't take every hit seriously.

2. It only takes one person assassinate someone or to take out thousands of people with explosives, so how many of them versus him is irrelevant. In fact, it's stupid and goes against training for police at any enforcement level to make contact alone when others are available to assist.

3. I imagine they have a minimum distance number for AF-1 based on the country/region/threat level they are in and the layout of the airfield. For anyone watching beyond that minimum, it would be at their disgression to do preemptive checks based on location relative to flight path, ability to conceal large objects, unusual behavior while waiting, etc.

[blackshire]

Yeah, part of the reason I'm not a cop... more corruption and nonsense than you'd imagine.

I had an instructor in the academy, an old cop that had been shot and lost an eye... he trained us in building searches. He was telling us stories, and one of them was that sometimes we'd go out to a call of a building broken into, and have to search it at 3 am, not knowing if someone was in the shadows pointing a gun at us, yet sometimes he'd worry more about the cop behind us than the 'bad guy' in front of us...

If that doesn't get you thinking, I don't know what will...

later! OL JR :)A friend of mine who grew up in South Carolina changed his mind about joining his town's police department when one of the older officers told him that they used the elevator in the police station building as a private room where they extracted confessions between floors... I'm sure that there are more good police officers than bad ones, but since I can't discern the two by sight, I just avoid contact with all of them.

[blackshire]

When I went to LE school in the Coast Guard to become a boarding officer, we trained in an old building, simulating sweeping through a vessel to search for hidden illegal aliens. We had no ammo in our weapons, but they were cocked and the safety was off. It was stressed by the instructors NOT to pull that trigger unless we felt we were in immediate danger. We would take turns hiding in various rooms and cubby holes. When it was my turn to hide, as a group of my fellow trainees were sweeping through, looking for me, as they got close, I let out this blood curdling scream. They got me and took me into custody, but the instructor checked, and every single one of them pulled the trigger and would have discharged their weapon and likely me, even though I was unarmed.

I'm glad I'm out of law enforcement.Well...at least you all were allowed to have cartridges in your guns when on actual duty. When my father was in the Coast Guard during World War II, early in the war he and others had to do shore patrol duty with empty revolvers. He once asked his superior officer what he should do if a German U-boat surfaced to put saboteurs or spies ashore in his area while he was on patrol (which wasn't just a hypothetical possibility then), and the officer replied: "Be *very* convincing." :-)

[luke strawwalker]

When I went to LE school in the Coast Guard to become a boarding officer, we trained in an old building, simulating sweeping through a vessel to search for hidden illegal aliens. We had no ammo in our weapons, but they were cocked and the safety was off. It was stressed by the instructors NOT to pull that trigger unless we felt we were in immediate danger. We would take turns hiding in various rooms and cubby holes. When it was my turn to hide, as a group of my fellow trainees were sweeping through, looking for me, as they got close, I let out this blood curdling scream. They got me and took me into custody, but the instructor checked, and every single one of them pulled the trigger and would have discharged their weapon and likely me, even though I was unarmed.

I'm glad I'm out of law enforcement.

Yeah, we did building searches too... they brought us up every other Saturday for exercises... we used the upstairs of the college building we were usually in for our night classes, since it was empty on the weekends. We were to start at the base of the stairwell, clear the stairwell, and work our way upstairs... then proceed down the hallway, checking every door as we were taught. In this case, if it was locked, we were to move on, as that room was not part of the exercise. If the room was unlocked, we were to proceed with a normal search procedures and clear the room, and then move on.

Well, I was working with the young block of wood that day, mostly because nobody else wanted to work with him... I cleared the stairwell and we moved upstairs, he on one side of the hall, I on the other. We moved from room to room, checking doors as we were taught, and cleared a couple rooms. We passed a few more locked doors and the next room was on his side, and I signaled him to try the door-- it opened. I then signaled a standard buttonhook entry and in we went. I was clearing my side of the room, which was about 3/4 of the room since the door was in the corner... furniture, check, under table, check, behind file cabinet-- blind spot, have to check that momentarily... as I was about halfway done sweeping the room I hear this high pitched voice (his voice ratcheted up about three octaves) croak out a feeble "get your hands UP!" I swing over and light my flashlight, and light up who he's got... sure enough, one of the detectives, who was supposed to be hiding somewhere upstairs in one of the rooms. I put my weapon on him and lit him up with the flashlight, and instructed him to lay face down on the floor. He'd already tossed out his .38 on the floor a few feet away from him, and having him squarely in my sights, I instructed block of wood boy to go remove his weapon. "BOB" (block o wood boy) moves in, shaking, and with his toe moves the gun about four inches, and then jumps back like he's standing in a nest of rattlesnakes, hands and his gun shaking... about this time, the detective 'squirms' his way over a bit toward the pistol BOB just moved, and starts fidgeting with the butt a bit with his fingertips... I moved in a bit, spoke loudly in command voice "DO NOT MOVE OR YOU WILL BE SHOT!" Then, a bit more gently and reassuringly, to BOB, "BOB, go get his gun and remove it please... I'll cover you." (NO WAY was I letting "BOB" cover ME!) This time, BOB gingerly moves back in, reaches out tentatively and gets the .38 and sticks it in his waist, and I tell him, "Okay, move around and cuff him while I keep him covered". After a fitful start, BOB moves around to cuff him. The instructor flips the lights on and says, "Okay, never mind, that's enough... " Shaking his head, he sends "BOB" on his way... He looks at me and says "why didn't you shoot him?"

"Who, Bob??" rather humorously...

"Well, ya, him too, but no, the other detective... he was making a furtive movement toward that .38... you COULD have shot him..."

"Yessir, I could, but I didn't feel the need to. I had my sights squarely on his head, he was prone, and I could see his fingertips just brushing the butt of the gun. I felt safe enough at that point not to shoot but to instruct him to stop. Had he gotten his fingers around the gun or went for the trigger guard, I could have shot him instantly. Since he stopped, I didn't shoot."

"Okay" he said...

I worked MUCH better with "Doc", who was our county jail doctor... he had three PhD's, one of them an MD, the other two in biology and biochemistry, IIRC... very bright guy... did a lot of holistic medicine, and basically had all the prisoners in the jail on Vitamin C and other supplements... (hey, at least we had HEALTHY prisoners! LOL:) Anyway, we did practicals together at the end... "live fire" exercises with bullets replaced by cartridges with cotton balls, but we were shot at... (and getting hit by a burning cotton ball leaves a soot mark like a paintball...) I was a LOT more comfortable doing building searches and apprehensions with him...

Later! OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

These days, he'd probably have his gun on you the moment you reached into that trunk.


Bill

Shouldn't even let you into the trunk... dunno what kind of arsenal he might have back there...

Later! OL JR :)