Decals: Ok... So What Did I Do Wrong?

[K'Tesh]

Tonight I tried to put the first wrap on the Maxi Icarus build and boy did I F**L it up.

I'm using Sandman's decals. The rocket has been painted for almost a week.

I gave the decals a coat of Microscale Liquid Decal Film... I followed its instructions, and after 15 minutes I cut out my decals

I used warm water to release the decal, and almost as soon as it hit the water (total time on the water, maybe 5 seconds), the decal floated off the backing.

I quickly tried to apply it to the rocket, but it was wrinkled all over. Using a brush, I tried to push it around to get the wrinkles out.

With zero luck using that I tried to use the Micro Sol, and it said that you could position the decal, so I tried to get the wrinkles out. Zero luck

I spotted an air bubble, and tried to remove it with a prick from a new Xacto blade, bubble disappeared, but the decal tore, I tried more Micro Sol, but the decal tore more.

Eventually, it got to the point that the decal was so badly tore up, I peeled it off, and cleaned up the application site.

So, what did I do wrong? How do you get a wrap applied without damage and wrinkles?

I never had this problem with my old decals, but I think (I'm nearly certain) that Estes decals are/were thicker. I wouldn't blame Sandman for this problem, but I have a lot invested in decals now, and my confidence in my own technique has tanked.

Thanks
Jim
.

[jetlag]

I don't use the Microscale stuff until I've applied the decal, if then. I reserve it for decals laid over complex surfaces, like rivets and curves, etc. AFTER the decal is already applied.
I use Testors decal bonder in the small spray can to overcoat first before they are cut out, and I get it at the Hobby Lobby with a 40% off coupon on my phone.

Great stuff!

I use it on all of Sandman's decals...just don't overdo it. Spray just enough to cover the decal sheet, let it dry at least an hour ( I do overnight, but it dries fast). Lay it flat (of course) as it dries. This spray overcoats the decal sheet and seals the ink from the moisture needed to unlock it off the sheet.

Once the decal is applied and dry on the model, THEN use the Pledge to overcoat and seal it to the rocket. Has worked for me for hundreds of applications so far.

Voila!

Allen

[Scott6060842]

I would have worked out the bubbles with water or micro set.

I don't apply micro sol until everything is perfect and then I don't touch them again until they are dry.

Now that you know the decal releases quickly next time don't leave it in the water as long. It took me 3 tries get the wrap on a K-41 once (skills are developed with time and practice). It happens.

[jetlag]

Well, even an experienced guy like me can still F*** things up occasionally. When I was decaling my Pro Series Red Max, I royally screwed up the wrap-around big decal that went at the top of the BT. Christine saved me again, though, and sent me a new one.
She IS Estes customer service!
Jim, just chalk it up to your experience.
Allen

[sandman]

I don't like the Micro Sol.

It seems to cause more problems than it solves.

I have found with bad wrinkles just use more water.

Do you need replacements?

[K'Tesh]

I don't like the Micro Sol.

It seems to cause more problems than it solves.

I have found with bad wrinkles just use more water.

Do you need replacements?


Hi Gord,

Yeah, I could use replacements, the Maxi Icarus' wrap is beyond repair.

I thought I was following the instructions on your page to the "T".

I've heard people say used a drop or two of liquid soap in the water used to release decal. Good idea or not? (I didn't use any).

Any thoughts about breaking the wrap into multiple parts to ease the likelyhood of problems, or am I just asking for trouble?

Thanks
Jim
.

[sandman]

Hi Gord,

Yeah, I could use replacements, the Maxi Icarus' wrap is beyond repair.

I thought I was following the instructions on your page to the "T".

I've heard people say used a drop or two of liquid soap in the water used to release decal. Good idea or not? (I didn't use any).

Any thoughts about breaking the wrap into multiple parts to ease the likelyhood of problems, or am I just asking for trouble?

Thanks
Jim
.

Breaking it up into smaller parts is OK. That's easy to do with the Maxi Icarus decal.

Email me, please.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I use Testors decal bonder in the small spray can to overcoat first before they are cut out, and I get it at the Hobby Lobby with a 40% off coupon on my phone.

Great stuff!


+1 :cool:

[Bill]

You did not mention wetting the surface of the rocket before slapping that huge decal onto it. That almost guarantees that it will try to grab.


Bill

[sandman]

You did not mention wetting the surface of the rocket before slapping that huge decal onto it. That almost guarantees that it will try to grab.


Bill

Always, always, always wet the surface FIRST!! The number one thing to get decals to move!

[blackshire]

Always, always, always wet the surface FIRST!! The number one thing to get decals to move!This raises another question: How do you recommend wetting the surface of the rocket? I've been thinking of using water sprayed from a "fine mist" atomizer bottle (like one of those little "palm-size" perfume or cologne pump-spray bottles), as it would avoid forming large drops of water. Also:

For applying ancient (a decade or more old) decals, do you recommend first spraying the decal sheet with a coat of gloss or flat clear enamel (or perhaps gloss or flat clear acrylic) paint, in order to physically reinforce the decal film?

[sandman]

This raises another question: How do you recommend wetting the surface of the rocket? I've been thinking of using water sprayed from a "fine mist" atomizer bottle (like one of those little "palm-size" perfume or cologne pump-spray bottles), as it would avoid forming large drops of water. Also:

For applying ancient (a decade or more old) decals, do you recommend first spraying the decal sheet with a coat of gloss or flat clear enamel (or perhaps gloss or flat clear acrylic) paint, in order to physically reinforce the decal film?

I just touch my finger into the decal water then touch the area where the decal goes. Usually have to do that two or three times but it's a very affective method of applying water.
Keep a bunch of torn pieces of paper towel handy. The frayed edges soak up excess water really fast.

I would never pre spray decals with any clear coat, the risk is way too high. I scan them first but that's just me. :rolleyes:

I use Micro Scale liquid decal film only. I know that works

[blackshire]

I just touch my finger into the decal water then touch the area where the decal goes. Usually have to do that two or three times but it's a very affective method of applying water.
Keep a bunch of torn pieces of paper towel handy. The frayed edges soak up excess water really fast.Thank you--that's definitely a simpler & cheaper solution.I would never pre spray decals with any clear coat, the risk is way too high. I scan them first but that's just me. :rolleyes:

I use Micro Scale liquid decal film only. I know that worksAnd that's -after- the decals are applied, to get them to better adhere to surfaces?

[sandman]

Thank you--that's definitely a simpler & cheaper solution.And that's -after- the decals are applied, to get them to better adhere to surfaces?

NO! apply it directly to the decal before you use them. Wait at least 30 minutes for it to dry. Then, cut them apart and dip them in water.

After the decals dry only use Future.

No guarantee with anything else!

[blackshire]

NO! apply itr directly to the decal before you use them. Wait at least 30 minutes for it to dry. Then, cut them apart and dip them in water.

After the decals dry only use Future.

No guarantee with anything else!Thank you for that clarification. I usually spray clear flat enamel on rockets after they are painted and "decal-ed," but since my paints are older, I guess the new formulations (some of them, anyway) don't chemically "play well" with decals.

[sandman]

Thank you for that clarification. I usually spray clear flat enamel on rockets after they are painted and "decal-ed," but since my paints are older, I guess the new formulations (some of them, anyway) don't chemically "play well" with decals.

Keep in mind a lot of those "clear" coating like Testor's Glosscote or Clearcote turn yellow with time.

I suspect a lot of clear coats don't have UV inhibitors so keep those clear painted models out of the sun.

[K'Tesh]

You did not mention wetting the surface of the rocket before slapping that huge decal onto it. That almost guarantees that it will try to grab.
Didn't mention it with the OP, but yes, I did wet the surface of the rocket before I dipped the decal in water.

Thanks to all who have posted suggestions on how to prevent this from happening to me again.

All The Best!
Jim
.

[jetlag]

I would not recommend using any enamel clear-coat over the decals before you apply them, as Gordy said. You are asking for trouble. If you use Krylon, you'll nearly ruin them.
You MUST overcoat Gordy's decals first to seal the ink; I use the Testor's Decal Bonder spray for this and have never been disappointed.
It works extremely well for old decals to help hold them together, too.

Give up on the Micro-sol as the overcoating, at least with Gordy's or Tom's (Tango Papa) decals.

Use water with a drop of dishwashing liquid in it for your wetting solution to break the cohesion of the water molecules. You'll need to, to keep the water from beading up on your newly painted finish. Pledge (new name for Future) it after all is dry for a super-high gloss.

Use the micro-sol setting solution only AFTER you have applied the decals to get the decal to conform to more complex surfaces.
It ain't rocket science!

Allen

[blackshire]

I feel like Vinnie Barbarino now..."I'm so confuzed...!" We need a "Gordy Sticky" decal checklist here! What to apply and when, and what clear paints (acrylic or enamel, flat or gloss) are best to spray on "decal-ed" rockets...

[Marc_G]

Hi Jim,

Here are a few experiences that may be relevant:

-First, you did the right thing in getting decals from Excelsior. Gordy rocks, and he helps out guys like us when we screw something up.

-I did a study about two years ago using Estes, Excelsior, and Fliskits waterslide decals. I took strips of each of them (pre-application) and tried overcoating them with a variety of clear coats. None of them caused any damage to the decal, and they all applied just fine.

If the rocket will be clear coated with lacquer (my favorite) frequently have sprayed the entire decal sheet with Valspar clear lacquer... a few light mist coats making the decal a bit pebbly. NOT a saturation coat. Give em a day to dry completely. They become much less likely to "Curl under" or tear during application. And when the decaled rocket is clearcoated, the gloss coat will blend in nicely.

Alternatively, if the rocket will be clearcoated with Future, just substitute Future in the above. Such decals are slightly less tough but work fine. I've also been told, and have tried successfully, that after the decal is soaked briefly in warm water, that pulling it through Future makes it quite slippery and easier to place into perfect position. A dab of Future over it once in position helps seal the edges down.

I recently learned that even future-coated decals can be over coated with lacquer or enamel clears. Thus, using Future to position decals doesn't prevent traditional gloss coats later.

Marc

[jetlag]

Marc,
The only thing I don't like about enamels or lacquers sprayed over the decals BEFORE they are applied is this (aside from the risk of obliterating the decals you spray it on):
As you slide the decal off its paper, there become little bits of the clear coat that come loose either off the decal itself or the cut areas. That stuff does not like to be handled as decals must be, and the coating disintegrates when exposed to water and such handling.
At least for me.
The last time I did it was with the old Krylon; my dog learned all sorts of new language that day!
The little tiny bits of clear coat got all over the place. :mad:

The Testors Decal Bonder is much more flexible after it dries. Fabulous stuff.

Allen

[samb]

Great, informative thread, proving once again that there are multiple ways to skin a cat and YMMV. Just to clear up my own confusion (and maybe others) on one point:

Sandman (who makes the decals) recommends a coat of Microscale liquid decal solution at least 30 minutes before use.

This stuff is different from Microsol or Microset.


jetlag prefers the Testors decal bonder spray before use.


Hope I got that right guys.

[jetlag]

Great, informative thread, proving once again that there are multiple ways to skin a cat and YMMV. Just to clear up my own confusion (and maybe others) on one point:

Sandman (who makes the decals) recommends a coat of Microscale liquid decal solution at least 30 minutes before use.

This stuff is different from Microsol or Microset.


jetlag prefers the Testors decal bonder spray before use.


Hope I got that right guys.

Indeed, that is correct!
After talking with Gordon (Sandman), he has agreed that the Testors product is a good alternative. I have had such good results with it, especially for his decals and really old decals, that I have not bothered to try the Microscale product. I do use Microset to get decals to 'hug' the details AFTER they are already applied. Works super-well, but you have to be gentle when 'blotting' the decal, as it will disintegrate if you are too rough with it.
I like the Testors, mainly because it's a spray, and as such, it lays down a nice even coating, and it dries really fast.
With the Microscale Decal Film, you have to use a brush.
As you said though, YMMV!
My suggestion would be to try both methods and see which one suits your needs/style.
Allen

[samb]

Indeed, that is correct!
...

Thanks Alan, I hope K'Tesh didn't mind my little digression.

So, K'tesh, did you come up with any other insights into your particular problem that may help others ? It sounds like you were following all the correct steps for applying Excelsior decals.

[jetlag]

Jim's issues with his set of decals give me another good reason to keep doing it the way I do with the Testors, especially for old, brittle decals.
For those, I'll even use two sprayed coats to 'glue together' pieces of individual, cracked decals, so they won't fall apart when they get wet.
The tip about using Pledge as and adhesive is good info, too!

Allen

[K'Tesh]

Thanks Alan, I hope K'Tesh didn't mind my little digression.

So, K'tesh, did you come up with any other insights into your particular problem that may help others ? It sounds like you were following all the correct steps for applying Excelsior decals.

I think that the major point is that you need to get the wrinkles out before using the settling solution, which wasn't clear in the instructions. I still don't know why they wrinkled, and I haven't had time to try again.

Gord did replace the decal I messed up, so I'll get another shot at it, but for now, Korean is taking up much of my time (and rightly so).

All The Best!
Jim