PDA

View Full Version : Russia with Love?


MarkB.
12-27-2014, 08:36 AM
I really wonder sometimes about our space program . . . .

The Russians launched three Soyuz this month, one from each of their pads in Guiana, Plesetsk and good ole' Baikonur, the last two in what appear to be blinding snowstorms. They tested Angara and looks like they'll get a Proton off in the next couple of days. They launched a Strela (SS-19) with a spy sat before Christmas. That's six launches this month.

I admit I'm a fan of Russian rocketry, but I'd be just as happy to see a Falcon9, a Delta or even an Atlas (although that might be considered Russian rocketry as well). Perhaps it's naïve to consider number of launches as an indicator of a healthy space program but number of launches would seem to indicate at least a thriving space program with some minimal dedication from the Russian leadership (Vlad and his buddies) . So what if the rockets date to the Fifties and Sixties, its like the sticker on my neighbor's truck, "Don't Laugh, it's Paid For."

This isn't the usual "we shoulda kept building Saturn 1b's" post, but we really need to reconsider how we fund aerospace in this country. I think we're getting ripped off.

Just my morning rant. Carry on.

luke strawwalker
12-27-2014, 10:19 AM
Quite true... all of it.

It's basically a difference in philosophy. The Russians have always had a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude, sometimes out of necessity sometimes from practicality, but it works.

I remember reading an article back when I was in high school about the then soon-to-be-launched Energia rocket... and commenting that in the year that article was written, the Soviets had launched about 53 rockets of all types and sizes (both cargo and crew rockets) while the US had just managed a handful of shuttle launches a few cargo rockets.

If the Russians had the kind of money our space program has, it'd be AMAZING what they could do... which makes it all the more pitiful that our space program has basically declined to the point it's a jobs program for distributing political pork and peddling political influence more than about achieving actual results...

Oh well... it is what it is...

Later! OL JR :)

tbzep
12-27-2014, 10:31 AM
We did something similar with our Thor/Delta, Delta, Delta II program. The rocket was gradually improved via uprating, extending, strapping on, replacing, new stages, etc. It was a very reliable platform with over 300 launches and 95% success rate. Delta III sucked, so I'm not counting it's 3 launches.

Remember, the Soyuz is similar, but isn't the exact same rocket as the original R-7 Sputnik booster. They've performed similar gradual improvements as our Delta.

Just think if we kept that Delta / Russian idea going with our two beloved Saturns!



:cool:

ghrocketman
12-27-2014, 10:57 AM
I'm a BIG proponent of "If it ain't busted, DON'T fix it" which is rare for an engineer.
It often gets me strange looks at my job when I inevitably ask the question "WHY are we doing this ?" when it comes to new electrical architecture design for automobiles. The answer more often than not is "because we CAN" which I find to be just plain stupid.

If you have something that works, stick with it unless you NEED to upgrade capabilities.

tbzep
12-27-2014, 11:12 AM
I'm a BIG proponent of "If it ain't busted, DON'T fix it" which is rare for an engineer.
It often gets me strange looks at my job when I inevitably ask the question "WHY are we doing this ?" when it comes to new electrical architecture design for automobiles. The answer more often than not is "because we CAN" which I find to be just plain stupid.

If you have something that works, stick with it unless you NEED to upgrade capabilities.
I wish you had gotten your way on my new truck. Some of the "features" of the electronics drive me nucking futz.

BEC
12-27-2014, 02:10 PM
I'm a BIG proponent of "If it ain't busted, DON'T fix it" which is rare for an engineer.
......
If you have something that works, stick with it unless you NEED to upgrade capabilities.
This is one place where we agree wholeheartedly....but spending 35+ years at Boeing, with the majority of them associated with the 737 program in many of its incarnations where this is pretty much the prime directive, has something to do with it.

Joe Wooten
12-27-2014, 04:18 PM
I'm a BIG proponent of "If it ain't busted, DON'T fix it" which is rare for an engineer.
It often gets me strange looks at my job when I inevitably ask the question "WHY are we doing this ?" when it comes to new electrical architecture design for automobiles. The answer more often than not is "because we CAN" which I find to be just plain stupid.

If you have something that works, stick with it unless you NEED to upgrade capabilities.

Actually, it's the marketing weenies that always want something "new." Most good engineers will only go with something new when it demonstrates more value than the existing product. In the nuclear power world, we've only gone to digital control systems in the last 10-15 years, while the fossil world has had them for over 20 years. The nuke plants we built in the 70's/80's/early 90's all had analog control systems.

tbzep
12-27-2014, 04:44 PM
Analog meters and switches are super cool. It's just a bonus that it sounds sooooo good. If anybody has an old Pioneer SX-1980 laying around, I'd be happy to "store" it for you. :cool:

http://pacificstereo.net/tapeheads/sx1980/1980%20left.jpg
http://www.cnet.com/news/how-can-30-year-old-receivers-sound-better-than-new-ones/
http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-1980.html

bernomatic
12-27-2014, 05:03 PM
In addition, analog is much less affected by EMP, which is why a friend of mine back in the 70's believed that the Soviets still had them in their equipment instead of the commonly held belief that the Soviets where just that much behind us.

blackshire
12-27-2014, 08:06 PM
I'm a BIG proponent of "If it ain't busted, DON'T fix it" which is rare for an engineer.
It often gets me strange looks at my job when I inevitably ask the question "WHY are we doing this ?" when it comes to new electrical architecture design for automobiles. The answer more often than not is "because we CAN" which I find to be just plain stupid.

If you have something that works, stick with it unless you NEED to upgrade capabilities.Dennis R. Jenkins (the engineer who wrote the excellent Space Shuttle history books) once told me that the X-38 program manager had said that he didn't want to use any old technology in that lifting body "space lifeboat." I suggested that he tell the fellow that in that case, the X-38 couldn't have any screws, bolts, wheels, or even a control stick, since those were all very old technology (ancient, actually, being examples of most of the "simple machines"--the wheel, the lever, the inclined plane, and the pulley [screws and bolts being helical inclined planes]). He agreed mirthfully, but (which I understood) he had to be careful to not make enemies within his agency of employment... But this serves to show how NASA is caught up in "neophilia," using the newest technology wherever they can just because it's shiny and new, whether or not it's actually better than current technology.

blackshire
12-27-2014, 09:17 PM
We did something similar with our Thor/Delta, Delta, Delta II program. The rocket was gradually improved via uprating, extending, strapping on, replacing, new stages, etc. It was a very reliable platform with over 300 launches and 95% success rate. Delta III sucked, so I'm not counting it's 3 launches.

Remember, the Soyuz is similar, but isn't the exact same rocket as the original R-7 Sputnik booster. They've performed similar gradual improvements as our Delta.

Just think if we kept that Delta / Russian idea going with our two beloved Saturns!



:cool:The other night I read (it might have been on the NASA Spaceflight forum) that the Soviets/Russians usually made/make improvements to the Soyuz spacecraft one at a time, only moving on to add another improvement after the previous one had/has proved itself several times. They have the same philosophy where launch vehicles are concerned--even the Angara's URM (Universal Rocket Module) was first proved to work as the first stage of South Korea's Naro-1 satellite launch vehicle; its first stage only differed from the URM in having a slightly less powerful kerolox rocket engine. Since South Korea paid part of the cost for developing the vehicle, that was a brilliant move--financially as well as technologically--on the Russians' part! Also:

Studying the Angara concept, I see that it approaches the modular MCD (Minimum Cost Design) launch vehicle concept of Microcosm's much smaller Scorpius launch vehicle (see: http://www.scorpius.com/ )--simple, mass-produced rocket modules (each having a throttlable rocket engine, for optimum propellant utilization and trajectory tailoring) that can be clustered together and topped with various upper stages, in order to cater to any combination of payload mass, payload size, and orbit (or deep-space trajectory). In addition:

For such modular launch vehicles that would approach and even exceed the Angara's size and performance, hybrid propellant rocket modules would offer intriguing capabilities--a TNT equivalence of zero (due to the non-explosive nature of hybrids, which would greatly simplify all safety-related factors, including for manned missions), throttlability, ease of manufacture, fault tolerance (a closed-loop throttling system [with combustion chamber pressure sensors] could maintain prescribed thrust levels even if cracks or voids in a fuel grain caused a "spike" in its burning rate), environmentally benign exhaust products, and even potential reusability (perhaps using a system similar to SpaceX's planned one for recovering and reusing their Falcon 9 stages). The solid fuel grains could be made of paraffin, synthetic rubber (of the kind used for tires), PBAN, or HTPB. Possible liquid oxidizers include LOX, HTP (High Test Peroxide [concentrated hydrogen peroxide]), and WFNA (White Fuming Nitric Acid, which--although it requires careful handling by and around humans--is environmentally benign).

foamy
12-29-2014, 07:35 AM
Analog meters and switches are super cool. It's just a bonus that it sounds sooooo good. If anybody has an old Pioneer SX-1980 laying around, I'd be happy to "store" it for you. :cool:

http://pacificstereo.net/tapeheads/sx1980/1980%20left.jpg
http://www.cnet.com/news/how-can-30-year-old-receivers-sound-better-than-new-ones/
http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-1980.html
Hm. I've forgotten the model numbers (it's been eight or ten years since I've used them), but I have a 90 watt Pioneer and 35 watt per channel Marantz sitting in my attic. The left channel went out on both of them and I haven't stumbled across anyone with tubes and know-how—yet.

tbzep
12-29-2014, 07:51 AM
Hm. I've forgotten the model numbers (it's been eight or ten years since I've used them), but I have a 90 watt Pioneer and 35 watt per channel Marantz sitting in my attic. The left channel went out on both of them and I haven't stumbled across anyone with tubes and know-how—yet.
The SX-1980 has 270 watts RMS into 8 ohms with less than 0.03% THD and nearly 340 watts into 4 ohms. Those numbers aren't theoretical. It actually hit those numbers in testing. (Insert Tim the Tool Man grunts here.)

I need someone to donate some vintage HPM-900 speakers to go with the SX-1980 receiver that somebody is sure to give me. :cool: :p

ghrocketman
12-29-2014, 12:54 PM
My father still uses his Vintage late 60's Sansui 5000 Tuner/Amplifier occasionally to power his vintage sound system that includes a vintage late 70's MK (Miller & Kriesel) internally amplified Volkswoofer.
That Sansui unit has more buttons/knobs/switches than the average Cessna cockpit.
It has outputs for 2 speakers each on channels A, B, and C and allows for any channel to be on by itself or any 2 in combination (A or B or C, or A/B, A/C, B/C).
I'm pretty sure it has 200W RMS at 8ohms.

dlazarus6660
12-29-2014, 06:55 PM
Analog meters and switches are super cool. It's just a bonus that it sounds sooooo good. If anybody has an old Pioneer SX-1980 laying around, I'd be happy to "store" it for you. :cool:

http://pacificstereo.net/tapeheads/sx1980/1980%20left.jpg
http://www.cnet.com/news/how-can-30-year-old-receivers-sound-better-than-new-ones/
http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/pioneerstereoreceivermodelsx-1980.html

Got one here in my area for sale on craigslist for only $2750.00.
What makes them so valuable? I have a friend who use to buy his electronics by the weight. The heavier, the better! :rolleyes:

https://nh.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=Pioneer%20SX-1980&sort=rel

tbzep
12-30-2014, 08:53 AM
Got one here in my area for sale on craigslist for only $2750.00.
What makes them so valuable?
270 watts RMS with 0.03% THD (real life, not on paper) without a bunch of signal processing to compress the sound into something it's not. See if you can find a receiver that good today. About all you will find these days are A/V receivers with 100-150 watts per channel and somewhere around 1% THD. It's all about signal processing to give you half-assed theatre or music hall sounds these days. To get close to that realm, you have to start looking at high end components (separate amps, preamps, etc.) instead of receivers.

Doug Sams
12-30-2014, 10:13 AM
If we're gonna be posting pics of Pioneers, here's mine :)

http://www.doug79.com/stuff/sx950-2

It's an 85W/channel SX-950 from the mid 70's, before the "receiver wars" propelled them to around 300W/channel. Seems like the market kinda died down after several vendors began offering 300W units.

Doug

.

DeanHFox
12-30-2014, 01:46 PM
Youse guys with your fancy 300W receivers! All I ever could afford was an SX-580. I'm almost ashamed to admit it.

(but it still works and sounds great) ;)

tbzep
12-30-2014, 03:56 PM
Youse guys with your fancy 300W receivers! All I ever could afford was an SX-580. I'm almost ashamed to admit it.

(but it still works and sounds great) ;)
I never could afford one. My older brother by nearly 11 years still has his SX-650 matched with HPM-40 speakers. After hearing it for the first time in the mid 70's (first ever experience with hi-fi), I learned all I could about the whole line and dreamed for years about having good quality gear.

Unfortunately, I started college in the mid 80's when the transition from great quality analog to blaa digital was taking place. My first receiver was a 45 watt RMS, 0.08% THD Onkyo TX-28. It's amp was a little better than the equivalent range Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, and Technics receivers of that time, but nothing like the classic Pioneer stuff Doug and I posted. Sansui, Marantz, Kenwood, etc. were in decline around that time frame. Technics (Panasonic company) eventually went away all together, but is supposedly going to be relaunched. JVC and Kenwood are the same company now and are doing well in low to mid level home and car audio. Marantz has had a solid resurgence in mid level audio. Sansui is still around but hasn't produced audio equipment in over a decade, though their technology has survived in other companies. Akai, Teac, and Nakamichi companies were deeply rooted in reel-to-reel and cassette tape technology. Their decline coincided with the emergence of digital technology. I have a sort of hatred of Sony due to a couple of quality control/product defect denial/warranty issues with them. I will never buy another Sony electronic product, nor will I bother to keep up with the company.

ghrocketman
12-30-2014, 09:20 PM
In addition to the Sansui 5000 my father still uses, he has an Akai Reel-to-Reel tape player that also has a slot for the largely defunct 8-track tape.
It will actually copy from reel-to-reel to 8-track.
One of the titles he has on reel-to-reel is the first Jimi Hendrix album along with some titles from The Doors as well.

I was wrong about the wattage of his Sansui 5000 and stated it was 200W RMS per channel at 8 ohms.
It is actually 260W RMS per channel at 8 ohms.

tbzep
12-30-2014, 11:05 PM
In addition to the Sansui 5000 my father still uses, he has an Akai Reel-to-Reel tape player that also has a slot for the largely defunct 8-track tape.
It will actually copy from reel-to-reel to 8-track.
One of the titles he has on reel-to-reel is the first Jimi Hendrix album along with some titles from The Doors as well.

I was wrong about the wattage of his Sansui 5000 and stated it was 200W RMS per channel at 8 ohms.
It is actually 260W RMS per channel at 8 ohms.
The 5000 was 55 watts.
http://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sansui/5000.shtml

ghrocketman
12-31-2014, 05:56 AM
I must have gotten my data from an incorrect source (my dad), or are there more than one 5000 model ?
I do know my father's 5000 looks different than the picture in this link.

MarkB.
12-31-2014, 06:00 AM
Comrades,

When they hand out the year-end YORFYS, I nominate this post for the category: Most Epic High-Jack



Just funnin'

Rocketflyer
12-31-2014, 07:42 AM
Comrades,

When they hand out the year-end YORFYS, I nominate this post for the category: Most Epic High-Jack

Da, Comrade.



Just funnin'

Me too. :)

jeffyjeep
12-31-2014, 09:05 AM
Since the thread is hi-jacked already:

Here's mine! A Ward's Airline radio from 1931. Has AM, aircraft, and police bands.

It draws enough power to drive a train and the tubes get hot enough to melt tungsten, but it still works--sorta.

The white cardboard box next to the chassis (a.ka. "the Executioner") contains a complete set of new tubes--including the "magic eye" tube.

It's been a family heirloom since it was new and every major world event was heard on it before and even long after TV was mainstream.

tbzep
12-31-2014, 09:41 AM
I must have gotten my data from an incorrect source (my dad), or are there more than one 5000 model ?
I do know my father's 5000 looks different than the picture in this link.
Yes. 5000/5000A and 5000X. IIRC, the 5000 and 5000A are 55 watts and the 5000X is 60 watts.

There is a G-5000 which is 45 watts, and a Z-5000 which has a digital tuner at 70 watts, and an RZ-5000 digital at 60 watts.

There is a BA-5000 with 300 watts RMS, but it is a rack mounted amplifier only, not a receiver.

tbzep
12-31-2014, 09:44 AM
Comrades,

When they hand out the year-end YORFYS, I nominate this post for the category: Most Epic High-Jack



Just funnin'
Analog stuff doesn't always center up on the frequency. :D

jeffyjeep
12-31-2014, 09:50 AM
Comrades,

When they hand out the year-end YORFYS, I nominate this post for the category: Most Epic High-Jack



Just funnin'
I dunno. The hijacking of the bobcat thread could be a contender.

tbzep
12-31-2014, 10:10 AM
I dunno. The hijacking of the bobcat thread could be a contender.

How about the GE Wildcat? :D

http://www.collectorsquest.com/uploads/blog/portable-wildcat-gray.jpg

jeffyjeep
12-31-2014, 10:39 AM
WOW! Does it still work?

tbzep
12-31-2014, 11:03 AM
WOW! Does it still work?

It's not mine. I just remember the Wildcat model named and found a pic of it to take the Bobcat hijack over to this thread. :p

I still have my first record player, though. It is a GE V211n. Found this pic on the net instead of pulling mine out of the attic. I got it when I was either three or four years old in the hospital after having my tonsils and adenoids removed.
http://images.addoway.com.s3.amazonaws.com/items/8678/2725584/8678_1_2a8617.jpg

When I got a little older, I took over my brother's GE Trimline Stereo 500.

It's also in the attic, so here's a net pic.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fNFEyefDaas/UCbw_lvMAYI/AAAAAAAABOg/rSl5whl4lj8/s1600/trimline2.jpg

I got a Hitachi all-in-one (tuner, cassette, 8-track, turntable) for Christmas when I was a young teen, but the amp died within a couple of years. I spent the rest of my youth listening on headphones until I got to college. I think the thing is still in my mother's basement. When I go feed the cows today I'll stop by and see if it's still there.

I finally got a "real" audio setup when I went to college and got a job at Opryland (worst job I ever had). That's when I got the Onkyo TX-28 and some Cerwin-Vega D-1 speakers. The Onkyo lost it's memory years ago so I dug up a service manual and found the capacitor responsible (no removable battery) for preset memory. A quick order from Mouser and I had it ready for my son, who used it through high school and a couple of years in college. I still have the TX-28 but it's stored away so here's a net photo.
http://galerie.avmania.e15.cz/data/500/medium/Onkyo_TX-28_F.JPG

My son still uses the Cerwin-Vega D-1's. They are 8" bass reflex two-way with horn tweeter. I remember comparing them with some 8" Advent and Acoustic Research speakers in Nashville, but I don't remember the store. They sounded better to me for rock music, were more efficient than the Advent and AR's acoustic suspension designs, and were cheaper. Easy decision! I re-foamed them (yes, I found orange foam) before I gave them to him. I obviously don't have the ability to take a pic of them because they just arrived in Texas about 1:00 AM this morning. Doug Sams is now a lot closer to my son than me!

Net pic of Cerwin-Vega D-1
http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/207540-cerwin_vega_d1.jpg

ghrocketman
12-31-2014, 11:09 AM
Gotta LOVE a good Thread-JAKKIN' !

Scott6060842
12-31-2014, 01:04 PM
It just so happens I'm in the market for a new vintage reciever. I have been using a Technics SA-303 but it is in need of service and I am looking to replace it.

I have been looking at Vintage dealers because I want something that has been refurbished and tested, not someones ebay junk. There are a couple in the Akron/Cleveland area and I may be making a road trip soon. There are also a couple online that ship.

I have been reading forums and education myself. It will most likely be a Pioneer, Technics or Kenwood. I'm looking to spend around $500.

Bill
12-31-2014, 03:51 PM
Russian Company Proposes to Build Lunar Base: http://sputniknews.com/science/20141231/1016439067.html


Bill

Scott6060842
12-31-2014, 08:40 PM
It just so happens I'm in the market for a new vintage reciever. I have been using a Technics SA-303 but it is in need of service and I am looking to replace it.

I have been looking at Vintage dealers because I want something that has been refurbished and tested, not someones ebay junk. There are a couple in the Akron/Cleveland area and I may be making a road trip soon. There are also a couple online that ship.

I have been reading forums and education myself. It will most likely be a Pioneer, Technics or Kenwood. I'm looking to spend around $500.


Update: I bought this refurbished Technics SA-616 ... crank it up.

jeffyjeep
12-31-2014, 09:17 PM
I can see your reflection. You should have worn pants!

tbzep
12-31-2014, 09:44 PM
Update: I bought this refurbished Technics SA-616 ... crank it up.

Cool! :cool:

Doug Sams
01-01-2015, 09:45 AM
Russian Company Proposes to Build Lunar Base: http://sputniknews.com/science/20141231/1016439067.html


BillBill, we've changed the topic now. Haven't you noticed?:D:D:D

Doug

.

Doug Sams
01-01-2015, 10:11 AM
My son still uses the Cerwin-Vega D-1's. (snip) Doug Sams is now a lot closer to my son than me! We can trade :) My son, Cory, is closer to you. He's studying music at the University of Louisville, which is about 4 hours from you, I think :)

Doug

.

tbzep
01-01-2015, 11:11 AM
We can trade :) My son, Cory, is closer to you. He's studying music at the University of Louisville, which is about 4 hours from you, I think :)

Doug

.
That's about right. However, I've got a daughter that will be heading off to college in a couple of years. I need some financial rebound time before that. Even with a full scholarship, college sucks money like a two dollar crack.....like a Hoover. :o

Bill
01-01-2015, 03:14 PM
Bill, we've changed the topic now. Haven't you noticed?:D:D:D

Doug

.


Please pardon my attempt to lowjack this thread...

That said, Dad had an SX-1250, but as it was a Class A amplifier, he complained that it drew as much power as the air conditioner. He had the brown, wood lattice front speakers - I do not know the model #, but they were not in the HPM series. I think my brother has that setup now.

In college, stereo systems were a big thing. I bought an SX-980 and HPM speakers of the matching power rating. After a couple of years, they were sold to a classmate for an upgrade to a Yamaha receiver and custom-built speakers (because low frequency is essentially nondirectional, the woofer drivers were in two large separate enclosures to be placed in convenient corners; I hung mine from the ceiling to save precious floor space in a cramped dorm room. The mid-range and tweeter drivers were in smaller units which can be mounted in nearly ideal locations for listening.)

This was long before the days of compact discs and I still remember the ritual of DiskWasher followed by StaticMaster before playing a record.


Bill

Bill
01-01-2015, 03:32 PM
The white cardboard box next to the chassis (a.ka. "the Executioner") contains a complete set of new tubes--including the "magic eye" tube.


My parents had a Webcor reel-to-reel tape recorder which had a "magic eye" instead of a meter for the audio signal level indicator.


Bill