Naram-57

[Initiator001]

I am finishing up packing my car for Tucson, Arizona and NARAM-57. :)

This is the 'closest' a NARAM has been to my home in many years.

I am looking forward to seeing some YORF folks out there. :D

[jbuscaglia]

See you there, Bob.

According to FedEx, my rockets arrived at the hotel today and I'll be there Friday night, assuming American Airlines doesn't screw up too badly.

[chalinaty]

I'll be there. Already on day two of our 32 hour drive.

[Doug Sams]

I am finishing up packing my car for Tucson, Arizona and NARAM-57. :)

This is the 'closest' a NARAM has been to my home in many years.

I am looking forward to seeing some YORF folks out there. :D

http://us-cms.jotservers.com/uploads/help/document/joey/88_facebook_like_button_big.jpeg

Doug

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

http://us-cms.jotservers.com/uploads/help/document/joey/88_facebook_like_button_big.jpeg

Doug
Are you going, Billy Doug?

[BEC]

Have fun everyone! And keep hydrated!

[Gus]

Bob,

I'll only be ther Saturday and Sunday for the flyoffs, but please stop by and say hi. I don't have enough room to bring my Initiator for you to sign. :(

Photo below is one of the things I'll be flying.


Steve

[ghrocketman]

Steve- what is that particular rocket, and what does your model use for power ?

[Doug Sams]

Are you going, Billy Doug?No, but it surely sounds like fun!

Doug

.

[Gus]

Steve- what is that particular rocket, and what does your model use for power ?GH, thanks for asking.

It is a scratch built model of India's first rocket, the Rohini 75. I chose it not because of its historical interest but because of its dimensions and clean lines.

I will be flying it in the flyoffs for the U.S. Spacemodeling Team in an event called S5, which is basically Scale Altitude. For those unfamiliar with the event your model gets judged like in scale competition with points awarded for adherance to scale, quality of build, difficulty of build, etc. Then those points are combined with points awarded for how high your model goes. So the model you choose and how you construct it are all part of the strategy.

Obviously I chose to go far more for altitude than for scale points.

This particular model was built out of pre-printed vellum paper, rolled on an appropriate sized mandrel (pics below). I've been building vellum competition models for years but this is the first time I've been able to find printable vellum paper which was very cool. My flight versions of the model weigh 14 grams (0.49 ounces). I could have made them much lighter but they will launch on a C6-7 so I needed the added noseweight for stability.

I'll let you know how it goes after the competition this weekend.

For anyone who wants to build a small flyable version of the Rohini you can find one on Neils Paper Models (http://www.nielspapermodels.com/models.htm) site.

Steve

[ghrocketman]

Very interesting, Steve.
Hope it competes well.
Has it (or a copy) been test flown prior to the competition ?
Agree it has nice clean lines.
I have always liked the 'pointy/spike' type nose cones although few rockets use them.
The Black Brant III and IV are a couple I can think of.

[Gus]

Very interesting, Steve.
Hope it competes well.
Has it (or a copy) been test flown prior to the competition ?
Agree it has nice clean lines.
I have always liked the 'pointy/spike' type nose cones although few rockets use them.
The Black Brant III and IV are a couple I can think of.
GH,

Thanks for the good wishes. I've test flown on an A8-3 but not on a C6-7. I don't have a local field where I can fly that high (1200' +). Also, in the competition we will use the very tiny Adrel altimeters which weigh about 1.5 grams. Unfortunately, at ~$60 apiece they are too expensive to fly on test flights unless I am pretty sure I can recover the rocket, LOL.

Good choice on the other models. Matt Steele is flying a Black Brant IV and I think James Duffy will be flying a BBIII. The new S5 rules mandate a model at least 600mm in length and at least 30mm for at least 50% of that length, so a 20:1 ratio is optimal. Their models have the advantage of being 3 finned versus the 4 finned Rohini and each have more "fiddly bits" with which to garner scale points, but I think the lightest any of the other models will weigh 30 grams or so and have more drag inducing stuff.

By the way, nose cone on my model (as well as a few others in the competition and NARAM, too) is by Sandman. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to make one of these nosecones to perfect scale and have a workable shoulder that is sized for the thickness of a single piece of paper? Gordy's work is just amazing, which is why so many scale competitors use him.

Other shout outs to Andy Tomasch who taught me the vellum airframe technique (https://www.apogeerockets.com/downloads/PDFs/tomash.pdf ) and to Peter Alway for spending a whole day with me combing through his archives for possible S5 models. Peter and I actually did that for the whole S5 team and most of the models built were part of the suggestion list we came up with that day. That day turned out to be pretty special because it lit the fire in me to try scale altitude (although I've been on the Scale team and the Altitude team in the past, but not the Scale Altitude team) and spending 8 hours looking through Pete's walls of data helped rejuvenate his interest in creating some new stuff for Rockets of the World (he's been drafting like a madman the last few months :) ). I've spent a lot of great days with Peter but that one was REALLY special.

Anyway, GH, no more questions, LOL. I've got to get all this stuff packed up securely since I leave tomorrow morning. But, honestly, thanks again for the interest in this arcane aspect of model rocketry.

Steve

[LeeR]

Steve,

Very cool build, and the printable vellum looks great. Good luck on the competition.

I immediately noticed a familiar rocket in the upper right of one of the pictures -- an Estes Saros. I have one of those from about 1976. It is the oldest rocket I still have from my "youth" (aged 24 when I built it ...).

[Initiator001]

Here's some pictures of the NARAM hotel and Sport Range.

The participants are not staying in the hotel tower. We're in two story buildings around the tower with parking close to the hotel room doors. It makes for easier loading/unloading.

It will be a warm one. When I was out at the Sport Range Friday morning around 10:30 AM the temperature was already at 87F. So, fly early!

[Ltvscout]

Thanks for the updates, Bob!

[Initiator001]

Participants are now picking up their NARAM-57 registration packets in the hotel lobby.
Many folks chatting with one another.

As for manufacturers I have seen and spoken with Matt Steele (North Coast Rocketry), Charlie Savoie (AeroTech), Bill Saindon (BMS) and Randy Boadway (eRockets/Semroc).

There's a NARAM-57 Welcome Meeting scheduled at 8:00 PM for all the participants.

[Initiator001]

This item was being passed out during the registration. ;)

[Initiator001]

The fliers briefing has ended.

The FAI participants are getting their scale models ready for judging.

[Royatl]

This item was being passed out during the registration. ;)

Is that attached to any rumored activity going on or did someone just decide to have some made for a lark?

[ghrocketman]

VERY cool pen !

Would be nice if Estes would add the original Enerjet kits and engines to their PSII series as "Classic" kits.

[Initiator001]

It was a busy day on both the competition and sport ranges.

FAI flyoffs for team selection was occurring on the competition range.

The sport range started off slow then the flying picked up. Busy, busy.
Largest motors flown were 'K'.

I had three successful flights. My forth flight resulted in the destruction of my Estes PSII E2X Mammoth model. The heat caused the black colored nose cone shoulder to expand while it sat on the pad. The ejection charge fired but the model went in nose first. The top two inches of the body tube were still stuck around the nose cone shoulder after impact.

The sky was somewhat overcast which dropped the temperature compared to Friday.

[bernomatic]

I guess not just the human participants, but also the rocket ones need to be aware of the effects of the heat out there.

[Gus]

Really good day of competition in the FAI fly offs. Weather started out quite calm in the morning but then very windy by the afternoon.

Bob (Initiator001) did a great job of hosting the manufacturers forum tonight. Lots of interesting stuff talked about but I had to miss part of it so I will let Bob fill in the details.

[Bill]

Pictures for the day on Monday are up on naramlive, but Chris did not post a link to them. Until he fixes that, look at:

http://naramlive.com/naramlive-2015/naramlive/04monday/day/index.html


Bill

[BEC]

Are the scores being posted anywhere? The results link from naram57.org is 404.

I'm curious about how those two-stage egg lofters were doing vs. more conventional ones.

naramlive pics seem to be going up at about the normal rate. The Wednesday ones were done this morning.

[Gus]

Results are on Facebook "NARAM-57" page. Dr. Kidwell has been snapping a pic of the results screens each night and posting it to Facebook.

[Gus]

Here are the NARAM FAI Flyoff results

[Gus]

More NARAM FAI Flyoff results.

Go team USA!

[Gus]

Here are results from the NARAM 57 competitions

[Gus]

More NARAM results


Again, thanks to Dr. Kidwell for posting these to Facebook.

[BEC]

Thanks, Steve.

[Jerry Irvine]

Notable to me is some of the "strongest" personalities (offensive) online placed highly at NARAM or FAI. Notably Dunbar and Gassaway. Hmmm. Lots of names I recognize on the lists.

The Saturn 1B by Flanigan in FAI scale was a runaway winner.

Jerry

[Gus]

Notable to me is some of the "strongest" personalities (offensive) online placed highly at NARAM or FAI. Notably Dunbar and Gassaway. Hmmm. Lots of names I recognize on the lists.

The Saturn 1B by Flanigan in FAI scale was a runaway winner.

Jerry
Jerry,

There are a lot of strong personalities in this hobby. ;)

It is very nice to see Jonathan flying again and doing so well after battling some serious medical issues. When he is not talking politics, Jonathan is a joy to be around, and one of this country's very best rocketeers.

George is simply a masterful flier and has always been hugely helpful to others by sharing what he knows. The first time Emma and I showed up at the flyoffs he spent a huge amount of time helping Emma and me trim our helicopters, which we had built to the designs he had posted online. But George's most impressive recent feat is how he has taken charge of his personal health and lost a huge amount of weight. I can't tell you how many of his fellow rocketeers he has inspired to do the same. Truly amazing transformation.

As for strong personalities, Jerry, when are you going to come out and fly with us? I've learned a lot from you here and would love to have a chance to fly with you.

Steve

[Jerry Irvine]

I dug up several of my in-process scale models this month. I find when I compete I feel better when I am competitive in most or all events at a meet.

I lost the competition bug after several of the contests I hosted were de-approved by Bunny. That's when I focused my efforts on legalizing LMR and HPR, both of which were successful. I think that had a more widespread impact than a few contest places at NARAM.

I too lost about 90 pounds in the last 5 years or so. Might keep going, not sure.

These days rockets isn't my pastime, but a job. A kick-ass job.

Jerry

[BEC]

I want to echo Steve's comments about some those "personalities". Most of those names were just names on forums and such to me until I want to NARAM last year.

Like Steve I found Jonathan Dunbar to be very pleasant to be around (and I gathered a little about those serious health challenges - he was just glad to be there last year I think).

I saw George Gassaway more from a distance but certainly didn't get any negative vibes from him.

There are others, of course....some more pleasant to be around that others. :)

I hopefully will get a chance to go to a NARAM again - and it would be fun, I think, if you were there as well, Jerry.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Any word on the location for NARAM next year?

[BEC]

Any word on the location for NARAM next year?

Well, Bill - In Monday's town hall presentation (which is up on naramlive.com) there was this. That was the status as of Monday, anyway.

[Jerry Irvine]

LDRS is in Lucerne again so I look forward to going. If NARAM is anywhere in the actual West I will likely go, although competition is East Coast Centric due to Bunny's opposition to my logistical innovations and G. Harry beating Doug Frost silly. I have been to a couple of NARCON's and liked them. I find the NAR/TRA HPR meme to be anti-business, anti-member, and that feeling is reinforced by worldwide certified users around 5000.

I may lean into fixing that. I had 20k in CA alone for goodness sake.

I think NAR contemplating a "compressed" NARAM is a great idea. It is much smaller than even Regional contests from the past like 15+ years past. The comprehensive C division lists of qualified flights from this NARAM only had about 20 or so folks. NAR could somehow focus on folks with an interest in modeling via electronic outlets to increase participation. As it is now it is 70's echo participants and is dying. I am a pink book lawyer and I don't go.

The main tactical takeaway I noted from the contest results is leaders like Dunbar stopped after one qualified flight so he could move on and focus on the next event. I can't say rude things about him when he is kicking ass and taking names.

R/C BG and RG have a total advantage against static gliders, and dominate. Thermal searching.

TARC rocks and I would like to see it double in scope with a Western region launch. Two winners per year, and far more sponsors and scholarships. Then expand south and to central Europe in 2-4 years. A big part of what TARC teams do is raise money for travel. If that could be reduced in cost almost 50% it would increase participation substantially.

Steve Jobs flew at LUNAR at De Anza college, run by Doug Frost. I wonder if he ever joined NAR?

Jerry

[rocket.aero]

If NARAM is anywhere in the actual West I will likely go, although competition is East Coast Centric

As a point of interest, the past two NARAMs have been in the western half of the US (Colorado and Arizona).

James

[Jerry Irvine]

I almost went to the one in CO just for the social experience. I will attend the next reunion event wherever it might occur. I was quite distracted last time.

Jerry

[PaulK]

Really good day of competition in the FAI fly offs. Weather started out quite calm in the morning but then very windy by the afternoon.

Bob (Initiator001) did a great job of hosting the manufacturers forum tonight. Lots of interesting stuff talked about but I had to miss part of it so I will let Bob fill in the details.Did anyone record the manufacturers forum?

[hcmbanjo]

Did anyone record the manufacturers forum?

I'm also curious to hear the manufacturers forum.

[LeeR]

I want to echo Steve's comments about some those "personalities". Most of those names were just names on forums and such to me until I want to NARAM last year.

Like Steve I found Jonathan Dunbar to be very pleasant to be around (and I gathered a little about those serious health challenges - he was just glad to be there last year I think).

I saw George Gassaway more from a distance but certainly didn't get any negative vibes from him.

There are others, of course....some more pleasant to be around that others. :)

I hopefully will get a chance to go to a NARAM again - and it would be fun, I think, if you were there as well, Jerry.

A number of years ago (probably in the days of r.m.r.) George Gassaway saw a post of mine about Saturns, and sent me in the mail, unsolicited, a number of photos of Saturns. These were personal photos he had taken at Huntsville. A really nice gesture. (Definitely awhile back -- before the days of digital cameras and sharing photos via email).

In 1997, I met Jerry Irvine at LDRS in Hartsel, Colorado at his display booth. We had a really nice chat. (Same Jerry? I do not recall that the Jerry I met could afford to lose 90 lbs.!)

In 2010, A friend and I attended NARAM in Pueblo, Colorado for a day. Neither of us could attend to fly, so we drove down from the northern part of the state to watch some events, and spent a lot of time visiting vendors. I met the "famous" Bob Kaplow at the Semroc booth. A really fun exchange again, meeting someone who I had only known from their online personality. Taht visit was huge. I met Mike Dorffler at the Estes booth. He was terminal, and wanted to attend the event. Estes was re-introducing the Saturn V, I bought one, and they asked me if I 'd like Mike to sign it. I did take a picture with him. I met the Semroc folks, and spent a lot of time talking to Carl. My first and only chance to meet him. What an incredibly guy (and of course what a nice family.) Also met Bill Saindon from BMS, who I'd known for several years from buying custom nose cones and parts. Also a great guy.

One of my fondest meetings was visiting Peter Alway while I was on a business trip to Detroit. I spent an evening with him in Ann Arbor. Fun to talk rockets with him for hours, and see and hold many of his classic builds, like the Saturn 1 on the cover of "The Art of Scale Model Rocketry". I'm not sure I ever learned so much about the hobby in such a short time.

[Randy]

Based on what I've seen via Chris Taylor it looks as though NARAM this year was substantially smaller than in the past few years.

Anyone have an idea how many attended?

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HHJHOK6
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O14ET8K
https://www.facebook.com/RocketBabeDustStorm

[Jerry Irvine]

In 1997, I met Jerry Irvine at LDRS in Hartsel, Colorado at his display booth. We had a really nice chat. (Same Jerry? I do not recall that the Jerry I met could afford to lose 90 lbs.!)Yep. I was interviewed by local TV and I was a motor vendor of course, but still mentioned Vulcan Systems, the local guy. Mike Gillette of RDS was there too RIP.
Based on what I've seen via Chris Taylor it looks as though NARAM this year was substantially smaller than in the past few years.
Anyone have an idea how many attended?I used the lists of qualified flights from the more popular events to estimate about 20 C division, so maybe 40 total?

When I was hosting contests in the 80's we had 15-60 in attendance depending on if it was an Open or a Regional event. I didn't run Section meets. I often ran two opens on the same weekend due to travel distances and times in the west. Bundick refused to let me run them concurrently.

With the astounding interest and longevity of TARC it has had nearly zero "halo effect" to NAR competition participation.

[Initiator001]

Did anyone record the manufacturers forum?

No. :(

Chris Taylor did not attend the Manufacturers' Forum.

[Jerry Irvine]

No. :(
Chris Taylor did not attend the Manufacturers' Forum.Not one person had an active smartphone? People really are interested less than any imagined level about NARAM Manufacturer's Forum. NARAM itself is irrelevant. :(

[rocket.aero]

Based on what I've seen via Chris Taylor it looks as though NARAM this year was substantially smaller than in the past few years.

Anyone have an idea how many attended?


There were roughly 120+ individuals registered, with fewer competing.

The future of NARAM was a major topic of discussion. Intriguingly, it has become the smallest of the four NAR national events. I would strongly encourage everyone to review the Town Hall meeting slides posted by Ted at:

http://www.nar.org/orgdocs/state-of-the-nar-presentations/

You'll find the basics of the current challenges facing NARAM and competition rocketry, as well as the plan to investigate options for reinvigorating both.

James

[Royatl]

Based on what I've seen via Chris Taylor it looks as though NARAM this year was substantially smaller than in the past few years.

Anyone have an idea how many attended?

Randy
www.vernarockets.com
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HHJHOK6
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O14ET8K
https://www.facebook.com/RocketBabeDustStorm

Always is smaller when it is in Arizona.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

There were roughly 120+ individuals registered, with fewer competing.

The future of NARAM was a major topic of discussion. Intriguingly, it has become the smallest of the four NAR national events. I would strongly encourage everyone to review the Town Hall meeting slides posted by Ted at:

http://www.nar.org/orgdocs/state-of-the-nar-presentations/

You'll find the basics of the current challenges facing NARAM and competition rocketry, as well as the plan to investigate options for reinvigorating both.

James
I can understand why it is the smallest. Too long. Too centered on competition. The sport range winds up feeling like a forgotten outpost. For sport flying the NSL setup is much more user friendly. I've enjoyed every NARAM I've attended, and if another is close I'll likely attend that one, but I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of ideas they come up with for updating it.

[BEC]

I find the idea that the annual national contest is "too centered on competition" kind of amusing actually.

To me, NARAM is the rocketry equivalent of the Academy of Model Aeronautics NATS - which is all about the competition. But then I'm coming to this from the perspective of a lifelong model airplane guy who is back in rocketry a relatively short time and who has only been to one NARAM (last year) and one AMA NATS (in 1989).

Since I opted not to go to NARAM this year I'm part of the lower turnout, I suppose. Two others from my flying friends also opted out this year, even though we had a great time last year (it was NOT their first NARAM). And I didn't think the sport range seemed run as an "afterthought" last year either....I was just too busy flying my events to fly the sport range after the competitions began except to get my officials in for the informal Classic Model and Big Bertha decorating contests. I did fly as much as I could the weekend before the competitions....

The AMA NATS used to travel around the country the way NARAM does but since the AMA bought their land in Muncie and developed the site there it has stopped traveling - and the time it takes has gotten spread out over much more than the week it used to take. Both of these are, from my perspective of a semi-casual competitor, steps in the wrong direction. I'll likely never get to another one.

But I do hope to get to another NARAM someday and am very interested to see what develops for NARAM 58 and on.

And I can see the concern - I managed to finish 97th nationally among all C division competitors after flying in exactly two local meets this past contest year (and only a couple of events at each - no gliders or helicopters yet). That tells me the numbers of competitors are few and most are not very active. Of course part of this is chicken/egg.....

As I say, it will be interesting to see what the folks who have been given the charge to "do something about it" come up with.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

I find the idea that the annual national contest is "too centered on competition" kind of amusing actually.
:o I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I understand that the competition is central to NARAM. I tried it and found it not to my liking, so I've stuck to the sport range at each of my four NARAMs. Things start to drag on sport once the competition starts, and while that makes for easy access for the pads, it does tend to feel like a ghost town at times. I think the competition could likely stand on its own for NARAM, much as sport flying does for NSL. Whatever the case, if I find either close enough for a weekend drive, I'm likely there. Not sure I've got the full week in me anymore.

[BEC]

Ah.... OK. I can't really address how busy the sport range at NARAM-56 was as I was otherwise occupied. I suspect that NARAM used to be all competition - but don't know that for a fact - and that the sport range aspect was added to give folks who aren't into competition at all a chance to come and visit with one another (and Vern and Gleda) at the same time. But that's speculation on my part.

Gotcha on the week-long affair. But I've also been to weekend contests where we've tried to do 4-5 events over two days and that is even more punishing. No time then to even think about a sport flight. Two events per day is about right.

Further ramblings: personally they could do away with streamer and parachute duration altogether and I'd not mind (even though I placed fifth (I think it was) in PD at NARAM-56). For me the fun is altitude, and duration with things that are more interesting - gliders and helicopter models) and scale. Even straight altitude is really kinda dull....but payload or cluster or egg lofting....a little more interesting. And being an altimeter guy, having the onboard instrumentation and integrating that is part of the fun for me - to the point that I flew altimeters in my B-cluster and B-Payload altitude models last year even though they were using optical tracking. I'm going to be very interested to hear how altimeters worked out at the just-completed NARAM.

[Daddyisabar]

At NARAM 56 in Pueblo I spent 99% of my time at the sport range. It was very active in both LPR, MPR and HPR, 100's of launches occurring when the weather was good. Level 3 sparkies to micromax, lots of local - regional area folks launching very interesting stuff. Sleek, high power beauties to canted motor oddrocs and airplane rockets. The guys at SCORE did a great job and the high power range was a real draw. NSL was great there as well. Could not make NARAM this year but I know several local club members went for both sport and competition.

How to save LPR competition rocketry? It must be made FUN at a local level.

[Jerry Irvine]

If NARAM was consistently a 3-4 day weekend I would totally go. FAI and further sport afterwards on Tue/Wed.

Boy, am I talking to the target market for deciding!

[BEC]

Daddyisabar - with your building/flying skills you certainly could have given the "usual suspects" a good run for it in both Concept Scale and Giant Scale at last year's NARAM - and still had Monday-Thursday for sport flying.

Jerry - I hope the target market for deciding (or at least the target for whom the deciding is going to be done) is folks with less grey hair than I have, though I do hope to be freer to attend NARAM (and NSL and NARCON) after I retire in a few years.

[Jerry Irvine]

I have listened carefully to the NARAM target market on Compuserve, AOL, rmr, and every website blog since, and one thing is true. The people you think about attending, have to reserve vacation days to attend. My advise is to make that a weekend not a series of 5 weekdays.

BTW every club should be allowed to run concurrent Open meets on the same day to reduce commuting while competing. BunDick disagrees.

Just Jerry

[BEC]

The people you think about attending, have to reserve vacation days to attend.

This is spot on. Not having enough vacation to do NARAM properly this year (including the drive time and some time afterward to visit family in New Mexico) was the main reason I opted not to go this year.

[Bill]

I just read the latest Electronic Rocketeer. The moral of the story is: if you want a seat on the board, host a NARAM and be sure to do a competent job at it...worked two years in a row.


Bill

[Bill]

I have listened carefully to the NARAM target market on Compuserve, AOL, rmr, and every website blog since, and one thing is true. The people you think about attending, have to reserve vacation days to attend. My advise is to make that a weekend not a series of 5 weekdays.


You have not been listening closely enough.

All else being equal, people would rather drive than fly for less hassle transporting rockets and especially motors.

Many people do not want to drive more than two days, each way.

That is why NARAMs in the Midwest tend to have higher attendance - that is about where the CG is for many of the serious competitors falls.

If you have NARAM around weekend, say Thursday through Monday, most attendees will be forced to take Tuesday through Friday off one week and Monday through Wednesday the following week. Contrast that with the "classic" weeklong NARAM when the two weekends are the travel days.


Bill

[Bill]

How to save LPR competition rocketry? It must be made FUN at a local level.


How to do that? We need ideas. Badly.

I compete locally for fun.

I have gone to many NARAMs, but never to compete. That is more like work than fun.


Bill

[Bill]

I suspect that NARAM used to be all competition - but don't know that for a fact - and that the sport range aspect was added to give folks who aren't into competition at all a chance to come and visit with one another (and Vern and Gleda) at the same time. But that's speculation on my part.


The sport range was originally there to give competitors a place to test fly their contest birds because the contest range had no time to spare.

Over time, attendees interest shifted, especially with the widespread adoption of mid and high power.

That said, one whole week of sport flying is too much. Few have the energy to engage for seven straight days.


Bill

[Bill]

As I say, it will be interesting to see what the folks who have been given the charge to "do something about it" come up with.


The board established SCENE, the Special Committee for the Enhancement of National Events with John Hockheimer as the chair. In the event no "classic" NARAM bid is received by September 30, the committee will itself establish NARAM-58 "which will likely be shorter in duration and significantly different in content from previous NARAMs."

John resides in Northern Virginia, so I would guess the venue is Great Meadow. Since they are not allowed to hold long events there, NARAM will be compressed into only three competition flying days and no sport-only days instead of the split schedules previous NARAMs at that site utilized. Each day will be long, sunup to sundown with three or even four events each and no evening activities scheduled except possibly for craftsmanship viewing so that people can get their sleep.

There may be another one or two hotel-only days for the NAR Townhall, manufacturers forum, auction, R&D presentations, etc. The awards banquet may be history as many may not be willing to stay another day just for that.

I do not see how you can get the competition aspects of NARAM into any less than four running days without cutting the allowed contest factor. If they do that, they would then also have to address the factors for regionals, opens and locals - all the way down to make NARAM participation still count as much. Or an outside chance of cutting the contest factor but boosting the weighting factor - fewer events each worth more. More drastic Pink Book butchery, but the precedent has already been set.


Bill

[Bill]

In case anyone have not looked at the pictures from Friday Sport Scale, there was a beautiful Titan III-MOL flight and a heartbreaking Little Joe II crash.


Bill

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

The sport range was originally there to give competitors a place to test fly their contest birds because the contest range had no time to spare.
That's what I figured.

[Initiator001]

The sport range was originally there to give competitors a place to test fly their contest birds because the contest range had no time to spare.

Over time, attendees interest shifted, especially with the widespread adoption of mid and high power.

That said, one whole week of sport flying is too much. Few have the energy to engage for seven straight days.


Bill

The first NARAM I attended was NARAM-29 in Fountain Valley, California.
There was some 'sport' flying on the Sunday before the official NARAM competition but that was it.

At NARAM-32 there was sport flying on Saturday and Sunday before the competition but no more after that.

NARAM-33 is the first NARAM I am aware of that had dedicaded contest and sport ranges for the entire event. That was also the first NARAM where high-power was flown (Up to 'I' motors).

I do not recall a dedicated range at a NARAM for competitors to test fly their models.

A sport range, especially if it can incorporate HPR, will bring more fliers to the event (At least for the weekend).

This year at NARAM-57 I was on the sport range six out of seven days. The last day, Friday, I was at the competition range watching the scale models fly.

[BEC]

All else being equal, people would rather drive than fly for less hassle transporting rockets and especially motors.

Agree with this....and transporting shade canopies, work tables and such as well.

Many people do not want to drive more than two days, each way.

Perhaps. Three was OK for me - but I already knew the drive wasn't that hard as I'd done the same one the year before to go to NSL

That is why NARAMs in the Midwest tend to have higher attendance - that is about where the CG is for many of the serious competitors falls.

This thinking leaves those of us near either coast out, though. Which makes me wonder when/if I'll get another go at either an NSL or NARAM.

If you have NARAM around weekend, say Thursday through Monday, most attendees will be forced to take Tuesday through Friday off one week and Monday through Wednesday the following week. Contrast that with the "classic" weeklong NARAM when the two weekends are the travel days.


Bill

Not sure I agree with this. Because of the length of the drive, I drove Wednesday-Friday so I could have the two sport days before the actual competition last year. But I'm an odd case, probably, as for both NSL 2013 and NARAM-56 my wife flew into Denver after the event began and then we both drove on south into New Mexico to visit family (the visit after NSL 2013 was the last time I saw my Mom alive) before taking three days' drive to come back here. But I'm certainly not "typical" so perhaps you're right.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

http://naramlive.com/naramlive-2015/naramlive/08friday/day/imgpages/image369.html
Ugh. :(

[BEC]

I compete locally for fun.

I have gone to many NARAMs, but never to compete. That is more like work than fun.


Interesting - having done local competitions now for a few years and one NARAM I found the experience fairly similar - just more people to fly against, and of course more well-known people to fly against. So I have to say it was fun to beat 'em all in one event last year..... :)

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

That access road looks like it bit more than a fair share of the scale birds. Reminds me of my days at VOA.
Now see what you did? You made me look at the NARAM coverage and now I'm sitting here drawing up a list of what might be flyable for this weekend. Because of you I'm probably going to have to drive to Dayton on Saturday. :rolleyes: :D

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

http://naramlive.com/naramlive-2015/naramlive/08friday/day/imgpages/image384.html
"Hey, that kangaroo stole my rocket!"

[BEC]

I compete locally for fun.

I have gone to many NARAMs, but never to compete. That is more like work than fun.


Interesting - having done local competitions now for a few years and one NARAM I found the experience fairly similar - just more people to fly against, and of course more well-known people to fly against. So I have to say it was fun to beat 'em all in one event last year..... :)

[BEC]

http://naramlive.com/naramlive-2015/naramlive/08friday/day/imgpages/image369.html
Ugh. :(

Yeah, and the next two.

Makes me wonder what Tom Beach (I'm pretty sure that's him pointing his camera at the incoming LJ) got and whether we'll see it in Sport Rocketry.....

[Bill]

The first NARAM I attended was NARAM-29 in Fountain Valley, California.
There was some 'sport' flying on the Sunday before the official NARAM competition but that was it.

At NARAM-32 there was sport flying on Saturday and Sunday before the competition but no more after that.

NARAM-33 is the first NARAM I am aware of that had dedicaded contest and sport ranges for the entire event. That was also the first NARAM where high-power was flown (Up to 'I' motors).

I do not recall a dedicated range at a NARAM for competitors to test fly their models.

A sport range, especially if it can incorporate HPR, will bring more fliers to the event (At least for the weekend).

This year at NARAM-57 I was on the sport range six out of seven days. The last day, Friday, I was at the competition range watching the scale models fly.


My first NARAM was 44 in 2002. After the opening weekend, the sport range was slower than the contest range, but was nowhere near dead. One of my jobs was to help get it operational in the morning and to secure it in the afternoon.

As to NARAMs before that, I was repeating what I had read or heard, so I could easily have been blowing smoke. Of the NARAMs since that I have attended, all except the most recent Cincy one (Lebanon?) had very busy sport ranges all week long.


Bill

[Bill]

This thinking leaves those of us near either coast out, though. Which makes me wonder when/if I'll get another go at either an NSL or NARAM.


When I say Midwest, I mean Ohio, Indiana, Michigan or even Pittsburgh.

Good parts of the East Coast and the deep South are within an easy two day drive.

The SCORE site is too good. As long as they have it and they have not burnt out, expect NSL or NARAM to return.


Bill

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Of the NARAMs since that I have attended, all except the most recent Cincy one (Lebanon?) had very busy sport ranges all week long.
Between the heat and the inactivity, that one was brutal. I think the heat was the deciding factor in keeping the crowds down.

[turbofireball]

Really good day of competition in the FAI fly offs. Weather started out quite calm in the morning but then very windy by the afternoon.

Bob (Initiator001) did a great job of hosting the manufacturers forum tonight. Lots of interesting stuff talked about but I had to miss part of it so I will let Bob fill in the details.
Does anyone who went to NARAM 57 want to share the information about new products discussed at the manufacturer's forum?

[Bill]

One more thing of interest from naramlive: Maxi-Brute Pershing and 1/45 Centuri Little Joe kits were apparently in the auction. Anybody know what the final bids were?

The total haul for the night was around $4500, so those two probably went for semi-reasonable amounts.


Bill

[kevinj]

One more thing of interest from naramlive: Maxi-Brute Pershing and 1/45 Centuri Little Joe kits were apparently in the auction. Anybody know what the final bids were?

The total haul for the night was around $4500, so those two probably went for semi-reasonable amounts.


Bill

Centuri Little Joe went for about $70. I understand the preapplied wraps have issues.

kj

[kevinj]

Does anyone who went to NARAM 57 want to share the information about new products discussed at the manufacturer's forum?
Here is the twitter roundup of the Manufacturers forum from @ashpoole you can find them by searching for the #naram57 hashtag.

NCR: Minimal website and a catalog due in 2016. New Bounty Hunter Rocket kit. New paint stand and a glue caddy added to list of workshop accessories. Buy from Apogee and e-rockets.

BMS: Nothing new to show. We have been keeping Bill busy, has a wide selection of motors and stock cones, if you don't see it on thier site, drop an email and ask. (I talked to Bill a bit on the field and put in a plug for bringing back semi-custom, Bill said he's looking for some good semi-skilled help).

Discount Rocketry: Started a new line of rocket kits for the younger crowd.

Apogee: Has been testing a cell phone case for launching- turned into a Level 3 project. Plans to have 10 new products out by the end of September, not all are rocket kits.

ARA Press: Reprinting Lost in Space books, one of which will be reworked. Plans to have a Dyna-Soar book out by next NARAM.

E-Rockets/Semroc: Hopes to have 80 kits back in production by Christmas- currently has 42.

RCS: cool things coming. Quest motor production to move stateside. Aerotech working on a 38mm kit.

Magnitude.io: Find new technology for education, new to rocketry, working with clubs and in the classroom for STEM.

[Bill]

Centuri Little Joe went for about $70. I understand the preapplied wraps have issues.

kj


I think that is still worth it.


Bill

[turbofireball]

thank you kevinj. i'm surprised Estes didn't participate in the manufacturer's forum, or were they just left out of the posted info.

[Bill]

Here is the twitter roundup of the Manufacturers forum from @ashpoole you can find them by searching for the #naram57 hashtag.

Thanks for data mining...


RCS: cool things coming. Quest motor production to move stateside. Aerotech working on a 38mm kit.


Interesting. No mention of composite motors from Europe, so I guess that is not going to happen. Pity.



Bill

[jbuscaglia]

thank you kevinj. i'm surprised Estes didn't participate in the manufacturer's forum, or were they just left out of the posted info.

Bob (Initiator001), who was MC for the forum, did read a missive from John Boren at Estes. Maybe he'll chime in. Nothing specific, but there seemed to be hints and allusions that someone more perceptive than I might have been able to decipher.

[Jerry Irvine]

No mention of composite motors from Europe, so I guess that is not going to happen. Pity.
BillI talked to the guy. He cannot ramp production sufficient to cover US sales.

[Royatl]

I talked to the guy. He cannot ramp production sufficient to cover US sales.

Has anyone suggested him licensing the design to someone in the US who would produce?

[kevinj]

thank you kevinj. i'm surprised Estes didn't participate in the manufacturer's forum, or were they just left out of the posted info.

No representative.

kj

[Daddyisabar]

How to do that? We need ideas. Badly.

I compete locally for fun.

I have gone to many NARAMs, but never to compete. That is more like work than fun.


Bill


Each interested club needs a grass roots/bootstrap program - very hard to do. It takes a dedicated contest flying individual/s in each club to bring in new flyers, you really have to love contest flying and be willing to spread the love. No more young baby boomers out there enthralled with going to the moon. This means initial promotion, then build sessions, then some easy contest flying for kids of all ages. Keep it loose, simple in scope and rules, focus on FUN and absolutely NO PINK BOOK LAWYERING or any of the bad behaviors associated with it. FRIENDLY, HELPFUL "pseudo" competitions for prizes where everyone wins and individual attention given- like kid's soccer. Then move them up to pink book competition only when they are ready.

DO NOT start them out in a real pink book competition with top men engaged in serious, hard fought battles, under time pressure and looking for the best thermals, launch windows, multiple timers, instant results, judging, rules interpretations and doing all they can do to JUST WIN BABY! (My apologies to the top men and the pink book here, but this is what turned me off to competition as a BAR.) Flying on the "edge" to win is not how to bring a new flyer in, even if it might be a bit boring.

The top men have to step back and focus on the JOY rather than the competition results. Very hard to do for that personality type, but they are the only experienced competition flyers out there. If they don't teach and pass it on then turn out the lights, the party is over.

The real problem is that such a program would now take the best of what the four regional clubs around here have to offer, combined into one spot to make only one good program. Clubs seem to be good at some things and suck at others due to the size, interests and motivations of the various memberships. Say for instance one club has great community outreach, one has some cash, one has a really good contest leader and one has an excellent field and administration, hard to coordinate for the goal of promoting competition.

Can one dedicated competition flyer make a difference? I never knew Bruce Markielewski but all the stories I hear is that he some how made competition rocketry fun. http://crashonline.org/node/48

When Bruce died it seemed the whole CRASH club and competition vigor almost died. It went through some very hard times, revived in a different form, but save a few dedicated contest flyers it could easily vanish, being completely overshadowed by sport flying (especially MPR going to HPR) which is attracting all the new membership.

[Jerry Irvine]

Has anyone suggested him licensing the design to someone in the US who would produce?After my conversation, it would be more likely to capitalize more equipment where he is. He has a favorable regulatory environment and easy access to all of the EU and commonwealth countries. US import would be a nut to crack, but manufacturing is best done there. I placed a standing order. So the first units, if they ever happen will be in UK. No NAR or TRA required!

Jerry

[Daddyisabar]

Daddyisabar - with your building/flying skills you certainly could have given the "usual suspects" a good run for it in both Concept Scale and Giant Scale at last year's NARAM - and still had Monday-Thursday for sport flying.



Thanks. As a wee BAR I actually was on team for Giant Scale for NARAM 52 in Pueblo but then some other team members ran into a lot of nasty Pink Book Lawyering with bad behavior and it all fell apart. I then decided to ditch the Pink Book and just build the sporty stuff I liked. I felt I did not have the right stuff for competition so it just died inside. I would bring a standard rocket for spot landing if they needed one more entry to make a regional. A few years ago I forgot such a rocket and ended up launching a four motored DO 217 oddroc for the spot landing. Ended up on the opposite side of the range from the stick and finished last, but was still wound up 127th in the country! Can I ever rekindle the flame? I don't know.

I feel sorry for the competition guys, they have a real tough task ahead. Talk about paying forward and making up lost time! It seems hard enough with sport rocketry. People come and people go. Demographics and fads change quickly. To grow and keep dedicated, young competition flyers into the future is going to take much, much more effort. Each club will need a "Bruce" and there aren't many like him. The personal mindset will have to change from "WIN" to much, much more "PAY FORWARD" - really tough. If it was not for a couple of really dedicated guys, competition at our club would have died. Can they use resources some might want to use to grow the seemingly better "bang for your buck" MPR-HPR sport segments? Can we work together - SPORT and COMPETITION? I will tell you it is hard enough to hold both style of launches on the same site, even when the racks are on the opposite sides of the range. What will Nationals do? Is high end NARAM competition OK to just be the same old folks until they fade away? Is that an unstoppable trend of modern model rocketry? Ouch, my comments are starting to hurt so I better hush up.

[Jerry Irvine]

Here's a link to the list of attendees of NARAM. Since this includes armchair rocketeers, sport fliers, and contest entrants, I still feel the proper list of participants in NARAM is from the contest results of qualified and non-qualified flights, Around 40 in total.

http://www.naram57.org/index.php/registered-attendees-list

Their link to results is broken, but someone posted it to the top of this thread in image format.

When they fix it it will be here:

http://naram57.org/index.php/news/naram-57-final-results

I want to see the R&D reports published!

Jerry

[Bill]

Here's a link to the list of attendees of NARAM. Since this includes armchair rocketeers, sport fliers, and contest entrants, I still feel the proper list of participants in NARAM is from the contest results of qualified and non-qualified flights, Around 40 in total.

http://www.naram57.org/index.php/registered-attendees-list



That list does not include walk-up sport registrants. I did not pay attention to what the deadline to register for competition was.

You are right - the contest results is the best list of competitors, but it excludes sport-only and registered spectators.


Bill

[BEC]

Jerry - I agree - I want to see some of those R&D reports, especially since I have a personal interest in altimeters and altimeter use.

Daddyisabar - wow.

I agree it's difficult to run sport and competition flying at the same time....we've done so at four different clubs' launches out here in Washington state and have had mixed success, though TCR in particular seems to have good success with it (and not with racks on opposite sides of the range). It helps that they have Dave and Barb Moser who are very much folks in the spirit of the Bruce of which you speak. But I can say that to some extent about the rest of the "regulars" at the contests up here (and I hope others can say that of me as well....).

Operationally the competition is run kind of on an non-interference basis with the sport flying - the meet LCO has control of the competition flights as well as the sport flights and some competition flights that don't require special GSE (like a tower or a specialized launcher for a glider) can fly off the sport racks. This DOES pretty much negate trying to pick air for duration flights. But it seems to be a decent compromise for concurrent operations.

I DID see some of that "win at all costs" mentality at NARAM last year and perhaps it's fortunate that the handful of folks who exhibited that trait most were concentrating on different events than I was. But that didn't seem to be the general case with the folks around me in the "camp" at the contest range (save for one family), and it probably helped that I wasn't there to win but just to put up a decent showing in the events that I flew. After all it was my first NARAM and I had no expectation of beating these well-known names I'd been reading about. That I managed to do so in one case (and drew a quizzical "how did you do that?" from Trip Barber in the hotel parking lot one evening) was a big bonus, not my objective in participating. And it may also have helped that I was an outsider (really only knew a handful of the folks there by name and face beyond the Mosers). Maybe.

All that said, I think you're probably generally right - especially in the difficulty in growing young competitors (who aren't the offspring of "the same old folks"). I know we're trying out here with only a little success. And I know that I, as a 6-year BAR who will turn 60 this year, am not really the target demographic for maintaining and growing competition in the long run. But I would like to help if I can.

Somewhere between A Parachute Duration and TARC the answer lies....but I don't know where that is at the moment (though we need FAI Parachute Duration for the internats).....

[Bill]

Each interested club needs a grass roots/bootstrap program - very hard to do. It takes a dedicated contest flying individual/s in each club to bring in new flyers, you really have to love contest flying and be willing to spread the love. No more young baby boomers out there enthralled with going to the moon. This means initial promotion, then build sessions, then some easy contest flying for kids of all ages. Keep it loose, simple in scope and rules, focus on FUN and absolutely NO PINK BOOK LAWYERING or any of the bad behaviors associated with it. FRIENDLY, HELPFUL "pseudo" competitions for prizes where everyone wins and individual attention given- like kid's soccer. Then move them up to pink book competition only when they are ready.

<snip>

When Bruce died it seemed the whole CRASH club and competition vigor almost died. It went through some very hard times, revived in a different form, but save a few dedicated contest flyers it could easily vanish, being completely overshadowed by sport flying (especially MPR going to HPR) which is attracting all the new membership.


The new emphasis on "mentorship" may address your first point. Now, someone who wants the points has an incentive to recruit others to fly contest. Time will tell how lasting it will be.

When we hold contests, we always point out those events in which "everybody already has a rocket they can enter" like streamer or parachute duration along with spot landing and drag race and to a degree, altimeter altitude. We can get kids to try them once or twice; most never paid much attention to exactly how high their rocket went or how long it stayed up or the effect of the direction of the launch rod or the timing between pushing the button and the resulting whoosh. Other than drag racing, there are few repeats.

TARC, on the other hand, generates a lot of interest each season due to the reward at the end of the rainbow, but follow-through is a problem with many of the teams.

Like yours, much of our membership go the mid, then high power route. We do get a surprising number of them to fly a contest event now and then.

Maybe if we awarded a section champ trophy each year, we can get people to try for that.


Bill

[Bill]

I talked to the guy. He cannot ramp production sufficient to cover US sales.


Has he considered the modern phenomenon known as crowdfunding?


Bill

[Jerry Irvine]

I don't think it is strictly a funding issue because both Quest and I offered to throw money at him. I think he is piloting the production layer during the now nearly complete approval process which took years under German and EU rules. Like me he managed to get CE marking for his entire motor product line. That is astounding.

I think he is tinkering with mass production methods. Think reinventing Mable.

Keep in mind model rocketry is a painfully small business. The entire industry is about the scope of one or two McDonald's Restaurants.

HPR is 5000 people worldwide and boy are they ego driven!

NAR competition is about 1000 people at most, about 100 of which are anything but samplers.

Jerry

Model rocketry, as important as it is to many people's lives in the scheme of things is literally a dimming flicker in time and space.

[Jerry Irvine]

Given the announcement that Aerotech-Quest is going to make BP motors, one wonders how that impacts the agreements they have with Estes. But it also opens the possibility for unicorn motors like 18mm B14, 13mm B3, longer delay motors for competition and sport, and maybe even higher thrust 24mm and 29mm motors.

Now that makes several motor producers in not APCP.

Estes
Kilma
Quest
Flight Systems
Technically CTI makes BP stuff, but only as igniter components.

U.S. Rockets has zero interest in that silly BP stuff. :)

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=196618&postcount=1
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=196884&postcount=20

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41140
18mm USR D20-4 in U.S. Rockets 24mm Sonic Sounder.

[Bill]

Given the announcement that Aerotech-Quest is going to make BP motors, one wonders how that impacts the agreements they have with Estes. But it also opens the possibility for unicorn motors like 18mm B14, 13mm B3, longer delay motors for competition and sport, and maybe even higher thrust 24mm and 29mm motors.


The big picture is somewhat different. I have been hearing persistent reports that beginners have been unable to light motors with the new "starters." A (non)starter set and a pack of motors for an outing. Dad burns all three starters without flying even one time; they throw the whole thing into a dumpster thinking it is trash, never to come back.

If manufacturing here allows AeroQuest to fix the quality problems, both real and perceived, with their BP motors, their superior igniter gives them the edge. Estes may have some actual competition for a change.


Bill

[Jerry Irvine]

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=198089&postcount=12

[rocket.aero]

If manufacturing here allows AeroQuest to fix the quality problems, both real and perceived, with their BP motors, their superior igniter gives them the edge.

Did I miss a memo? When did Aerotech/Quest commit to domestic production of BP motors?

James

[Bill]

Did I miss a memo? When did Aerotech/Quest commit to domestic production of BP motors?

James


http://oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=198586&postcount=80


Bill

[Jerry Irvine]

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=198089&postcount=12The ATF lawsuit was only the very first chapter of a long book targeting rocketry and pyrotechnics use by citizens.

Be aware.

https://electricmatch.com/products/see/6/mjg-firewire-initiator

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Starters

Tell them Jerry sent you.

[Initiator001]

At NARAM-57, AeroTech General Manager Charles Savoie demo flew a prototype of a new AeroTech kit.

The model did not have a name yet. It is four inches in diameter and has a 38mm motor mount.
The prototype was unpainted.

Charlie demonstrated the model on an 'H' motor if I recall correctly. It had a fine flight and recovery.