MPC History

[Initiator001]

The discussion about MPC rocketry products in the thread about the collection at the Museum of Flight has caused me to dig up an old article I wrote for my NAR Section newsletter in 1990.

Additional information has come to light since then concerning MPC rocketry but I thought I would run this old article as a brief history of the company.

I welcome additional discussion/information concerning MPC rocketry history and products.

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(Note: This article was originally printed in the NAR Section 317 DART newsletter Warp 9, Vol. 3, #2, March/April 1990. It is dated but provides a basic introduction to MPC rocket products )

The last year has seen a tremendous growth in the number of new companies producing products for model rocketry enthusiasts. It was also a year when past model rocket companies made news. One of these was Model Products Corporation (MPC). Unexpectedly, beginning in the Spring of 1989, nearly two decade old MPC kits began to appear on shelves of many hobby shops. There has been much speculation about the reappearance of these old kits and a new interest in the history of MPC model rockets.

MPC, part of the General Mills Food Group, entered the hobby market in the late 1960’s. General Mills bought a fledgling model rocket company known as Model Rocket Industries (MRI) in 1968 and established their own model rocket company, MPC. MPC retained MRI’s founder, Mike Bergenske, to design and develop products for MPC. Additional model rocket brain-power was provided by G. Harry Stine who was hired on as a consultant.

MPC tested the acceptance of its new model rocket line at the 1969 Hobby Industry of America (HIA) trade show. At this show MPC took an order from the K-Mart chain for over a half-million dollars (in 1969, yet!). MPC went into high gear and shipped out the K-Mart order. To match the way K-Mart displayed plastic model kits, MPC packaged its rockets in shrink-wrapped boxes.

Thanks to this initial large order, MPC was able to fund the development of many new kits and other rocketry products, establishing the company as a major player in the model rocket industry. MPC lead the industry in the introduction of plastic parts and assemblies – plastic fins, transitions and nose cones became common in MPC kits. While other companies incorporated wood in their launch pads, MPC produced and all plastic one. The final expression of this ‘plastic is best’ philosophy was the introduction of two, all plastic, scale kits – a Titan IIIC and a Vostok RD-107, both in 1/100th scale. These two kits could be built as display models or the optional flight parts could be incorporated to make a flying model.

Not long after this initial excitement the situation began to sour for MPC. Twenty years ago many states regulated model rocketry by their own laws, unlike today when most states observe some form of the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) code for unmanned rockets. This usually meant laws designed for regulating fireworks were applied to model rockets. As a result MPC, with their rockets being displayed in a major chain store, ran into a great deal of difficulty due to various state and local laws.

Not willing to put up with such difficulties, K-Mart returned their remaining stocks to MPC. After refunding K-Mart for returned kits and motors, MPC found itself in financial difficulty. AS MPC management struggled to come up with a solution to this problem, Bergenske was left in charge of the model rocket division and continued to develop new products. This second wave of new products saw the introduction of the 13mm diameter 1/4A to B mini-motors. These motors were very popular for NAR competition events and a special line of kits (‘Minirocs’) were created for these motors.

Eventually, MPC management decided to sell off their model rocketry assets. A ‘deal’ was worked out and Mike Bergenske ended up with all of MPCs molds, motor making machines and other related items.

Bergenske set up a new company called Aerospace Vehicles, Inc. (AVI) to sell the former MPC products plus new items. AVI folded in the late 1970s and the MPC tooling disappeared, although it was rumored to be in storage somewhere in Wisconsin along with many cases of unsold MPC kits.

It now appears that someone managed to find these missing stocks of kits and motors and sold them to a hobby distributor and from there they were distributed to various hobby shops. The motor making machines were also located and are now the property of Flight Systems, Inc. The machines consist of three for making 18mm motors and two for making 13mm ‘mini-motors’. It is understood that the condition of these machines is poor as they had not been properly stored. The exact location of the kit molds is not known, but rumor has it that they are in excellent shape and could be used to make more parts.

The final chapter concerning the MPC model rockets has yet to be written. It is well known that many of the MPC kits, especially the Vostok and Titan IIIC, are sought after collector’s items. We may yet see these kits again!

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I knew more about what happened with the MPC molds and some other items but was asked not to discuss it.

For the moment let me just say I was privy to information which would lead to the announcement of Quest Aerospace.

[Jerry Irvine]

I would like to get a copy of all DART newsletters from 1990. One has an article of our release of reloadables (first in the nation January 1990).

[pterodactyl]

Great information Bob, thanks for the post!

[stefanj]

I sold a lot of my rocketry memorabilia when I was in grad school, for pizza money.

I have a file box full left, and I bet I still have some interesting stuff from the MRI / MPC / AVI era.

I'm building a Nike-Patriot right now. I'm really impressed by the body tubes. They were really thick, and also made of a really tough paper. It was fully wound, it that makes sense. No gaps or weak points. The slightly wrinkly outer shell sands beautifully, and you can hit it with sanding sealer to make it even smoother.

I wonder what it would take to recreate these tubes?

[LeeR]

Bob,

Very interesting article. In high school, a friend built the MPC Vostok. I loved that model, but never found one. In the early 90s I bought one from Countdown Hobbies. I paid a lot of money for that kit, around $75 as I recall. (Did I mention I loved that kit as a kid? :) )

Last year I decided to start building it. I have not completed it yet, but I will finish it. After reading about poor flight performance, I decided I'd fly it using the 18/20 RMS hardware using either D13 or D24 reloads.

While I was doing research on color schemes, I found out the kit had been re-issued, minus the cardboard body tube and other parts like parachute, necessary for flight. I bought another last year for around $30 from an online hobby store.

Here are a couple pictures. In one, you see the original kit, and the newer kit next to it.

[Jerry Irvine]

I send people free Fedex Ground labels and shipping lablels to preserve collections for free. I don't ask that many questions about what is in the boxes.

[blackshire]

I sold a lot of my rocketry memorabilia when I was in grad school, for pizza money.

I have a file box full left, and I bet I still have some interesting stuff from the MRI / MPC / AVI era.

I'm building a Nike-Patriot right now. I'm really impressed by the body tubes. They were really thick, and also made of a really tough paper. It was fully wound, it that makes sense. No gaps or weak points. The slightly wrinkly outer shell sands beautifully, and you can hit it with sanding sealer to make it even smoother.

I wonder what it would take to recreate these tubes?I wonder that too! Interestingly, the tubes in those MPC kits (the 18 mm motor powered ones as well as their 13 mm Minijet-powered Miniroc kits) are referred to in the kits' instructions as "fiber body tubes." While they aren't the same material as the fiber (or fibre, as Centuri spelled it to be fancy) fin material (that's beveridge board), the MPC fiber body tubes are of comparable strength and stiffness--even after all of these decades since they were made!--to the fiber fin stock. Now:

Not having an example of the MPC fiber body tubes in front of me at the moment (I presume AVI and AVI Astroport used the same tubes, since they got MPC's inventory), but recalling their appearance and how they dented, creased, or buckled (which required a lot of force!), my impression was that they may have been impregnated with some kind of resin (not necessarily something like an epoxy, polyester, or polyurethane resin, but maybe something that is appropriate for paper), and:

I once dented the end of a small scrap piece of the MPC fiber tubing with my thumb, and it made a faint "ch-ch-ch" sound as the creases at the edges of the dent formed. It sounded like how a thin (or wide and un-braced) piece of fiberglass (such as the floor of a cheap fiberglass shower stall, when one moves around while standing on it) sounds when it flexes or breaks. Not only that "acoustic similarity," but also a "cultural one," makes me inclined to think that the MPC fiber body tubes may have been resin-impregnated:

Back in the days when MPC was producing their model rocket kits, "fiber" things were considered modern, more efficient, cool, and futuristic (just as "digital" things were in later years). In issues of magazines such as "Mechanix Illustrated," "Popular Mechanics," and "Popular Science" in those years (and before), fiberglass was considered a 'wonder material,' and countless project articles in those publications (and in others) covered how to mold parts and items with complex curvatures, laminate boats and other wooden things, and patch damage to car bodies using fiberglass. In that "nomenclatural atmosphere," fiber body tubes (and for other model rocket companies, fiber [fibre] fins) would have sounded advanced and futuristic (and to me, they still do--the only difference is that today, the "buzz-word" for resin-impregnated fiber items is "composites"). In addition:

If a model rocket company re-created the MPC fiber body tubes (even in other sizes, although I'm perfectly pleased with the MPC/AVI/AVI Astroport/Quest Aerospace "5 mm increment" metric body tube sizes), I would pay extra (within reason) for kits that utilized them, because they're so much stronger, stiffer, and more durable than even brown virgin (having long fibers) kraft paper tubes (which are quite tough themselves--they're my close second-favorite body tubes!), BUT:

"Trailing the pack along the outside rail, in a distant last place," is my absolutely *least-favorite* body tube type--the white, recycled kraft paper tubes, which are made with short, chopped paper fibers that make them soft, weak, and easily damageable. If they could be made as strong and stiff as brown virgin kraft paper tubes by impregnating them with some type of resin, I would consider them good, but my preference would be for the even tougher MPC-type fiber body tubes, which were, I'm pretty sure, made using virgin kraft paper, whose long paper fibers (along with whatever was impregnated into the paper) made them the strongest of all.

[stefanj]

The instructions for the Nike-Patriot I'm building refer, in the step where the plastic launch lug is glued on, to the tube covering as "plastic."

I think the tube core is just really high quality paper. Dense, completely wrapped. No gaps.

Least-favorite tube has a brown inner layer that isn't complete; held together by the outer layer.

I wonder if Myke Bergenske would remember these details, or if Bill Stine could help.

* * *
Other oddments for this thread:

* AVI produced its own motors for a short time. Same as the MPC motors, but with funky 1970s labeling.
* At least one MPC kit had, on the instruction sheet's suggested motor list, what appear to be FSI motors! D4, D6, etc. Were these really FSI motors, or vaporware MPC motors?
* Who designed and build the MRI / MPC / AVI motor making machine?
* What became of the 13 mm motor making machine? Or was were those motors made on the bigger machine with some kind of alternate tooling set?

[BigRIJoe]

So which low and mid power body tubes have the smallest spirals to fill in?

[mwtoelle]

So which low and mid power body tubes have the smallest spirals to fill in?
Probably the old CMR (Competition Model Rockets) body tubes. All you needed for a smooth finish was some sandpaper and little elbow grease to deal with the spiral. Some of the BTCs may know which company produced those body tubes.

[tbzep]

Probably the old CMR (Competition Model Rockets) body tubes. All you needed for a smooth finish was some sandpaper and little elbow grease to deal with the spiral. Some of the BTCs may know which company produced those body tubes.
I don't know if Euclid made them or not, but they were capable of doing it. You could order up just about anything from them.

[Gus]

Speaking of MPC and G. Harry's involvement, I thought you guys might enjoy seeing this. I picked it up a LONG time ago. The box and shrink wrap are in perfect condition and someone very wisely thought to have Harry sign it. I'm pretty sure it was in pre-Sharpie days because Harry signed on a piece of masking tape affixed to the back of the kit.

"G. Harry Stine NAR-2 Designer"

[stefanj]

More tid-bits:

Circa 1970-71, the small hobby shop in Glen Cove, LI carried MPC parts. They came in bags with headers. I recall buying plastic fin units for the 25mm tube. They must have had tubes and cones as well.

The shop had some MPC kits in bags, which seems unusual now. I remember looking at the peculiar "fried egg' foam saucers of the Martin Patrol through the plastic bag. Is it possible that this was a later type of packaging, made for hobby shop distribution?

The same shop had a copy of the Model Rocket Manual by Stine. It had a black cover with a red or white line drawing of a rocket. The book (which I still have, minus the cover and some front and back pages) was a sort of cut-down version of the Handbook of Model Rocketry, with some of the same illustrations. It was very MPC-centric, with mentions of MPC kits and pictures of them as well!

The same shop carried MPC's "ready to fly" models. They came in glossy display boxes with cellophane "windows," more like a toy than rocketry packaging at the time.

I bought one in the late 80s from Commonwealth Displays; it was heavy and kind of clunky. I recall one had used the clipped delta T-25 fin unit. They had a T-20 interior tube that was advertised as a replaceable liner; a sliding red plastic plug was use in lieu of wadding. I never flew or took the kit out of the box; before moving to California I sold it for a good mark-up.

[John Brohm]

...

The same shop had a copy of the Model Rocket Manual by Stine. It had a black cover with a red or white line drawing of a rocket. The book (which I still have, minus the cover and some front and back pages) was a sort of cut-down version of the Handbook of Model Rocketry, with some of the same illustrations. It was very MPC-centric, with mentions of MPC kits and pictures of them as well!

...

This is the later ARCO published version of the book you mention. It is indeed MPC focused.

[stefanj]

This is the later ARCO published version of the book you mention. It is indeed MPC focused.
It is possible that Arco published the version I described. I will have to dig it out of storage!

I saw another version, with a color cover, at Powell's about ten years ago. I really, really should have bought it!

[blackshire]

Speaking of MPC and G. Harry's involvement, I thought you guys might enjoy seeing this. I picked it up a LONG time ago. The box and shrink wrap are in perfect condition and someone very wisely thought to have Harry sign it. I'm pretty sure it was in pre-Sharpie days because Harry signed on a piece of masking tape affixed to the back of the kit.

"G. Harry Stine NAR-2 Designer"That *is* quite an artifact! Did he get its name from the alien pet called a flat cat (a pie slice-shaped furry creature that buzzed when happy, rather like a cat purring [perhaps the inspiration for the tribbles in "Star Trek?"]) in E. E. "Doc" Smith's science fiction stories? Being a science fiction writer himself, Stine very likely read Smith's stories.

[blackshire]

The instructions for the Nike-Patriot I'm building refer, in the step where the plastic launch lug is glued on, to the tube covering as "plastic."

I think the tube core is just really high quality paper. Dense, completely wrapped. No gaps.

Least-favorite tube has a brown inner layer that isn't complete; held together by the outer layer.

I wonder if Myke Bergenske would remember these details, or if Bill Stine could help.

* * *
Other oddments for this thread:

* AVI produced its own motors for a short time. Same as the MPC motors, but with funky 1970s labeling.
* At least one MPC kit had, on the instruction sheet's suggested motor list, what appear to be FSI motors! D4, D6, etc. Were these really FSI motors, or vaporware MPC motors?
* Who designed and build the MRI / MPC / AVI motor making machine?
* What became of the 13 mm motor making machine? Or was were those motors made on the bigger machine with some kind of alternate tooling set?You may have solved this mystery with that one word ("plastic")--you jogged my memory of the scanned Nike-Patriot instructions on the Ninfinger Productions website. A high-quality spiral-wound kraft paper tube with a thin plastic overwrap (which might also have "soaked" into the upper layer of the paper, if the plastic was applied in a dissolved liquid [or molten] form) could also have the same physical characteristics as the MPC tubes, especially if the cured (or cooled & solidified) plastic was stiff (had a low elastic modulus). It would also--depending on its composition--be perfect for making strong plastic-to-plastic bonds (with the MPC styrene plastic launch lugs, for example), using ordinary plastic cement (if I recall correctly, the instructions called for using tube-type plastic cement).

[DeanHFox]

That *is* quite an artifact! Did he get its name from the alien pet called a flat cat (a pie slice-shaped furry creature that buzzed when happy, rather like a cat purring [perhaps the inspiration for the tribbles in "Star Trek?"]) in E. E. "Doc" Smith's science fiction stories? Being a science fiction writer himself, Stine very likely read Smith's stories.The "Flat Cats" also appeared in Robert Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" --- the youngest Stone called his "Fuzzy Britches". :)

[Joe Wooten]

That *is* quite an artifact! Did he get its name from the alien pet called a flat cat (a pie slice-shaped furry creature that buzzed when happy, rather like a cat purring [perhaps the inspiration for the tribbles in "Star Trek?"]) in E. E. "Doc" Smith's science fiction stories? Being a science fiction writer himself, Stine very likely read Smith's stories.

I thought Heinlein used those first in "The Rolling Stones".......

I guess I should have read all the posts first...... :rolleyes:

[pterodactyl]

Stine was very close to Heinlein, so the Flat Cat name has an obvious explanation of which I was unaware until now. I thought it was a Grumman aircraft reference; they named all their aircraft after types of 'Cat'.

[blackshire]

Thank you both [correction: all three of you]--I may have been mistaken about who invented the flat cat (I haven't read any of Smith's or Heinlein's stories, but I read somewhere about Smith incorporating the creatures in his works; maybe they both used them?).

[DeanHFox]

Thank you both [correction: all three of you]--I may have been mistaken about who invented the flat cat (I haven't read any of Smith's or Heinlein's stories, but I read somewhere about Smith incorporating the creatures in his works; maybe they both used them?).This has been bugging me today --- did a little web research, and found this article over at Wikipedia (but the story is repeated in numerous other websites' links, all basically telling the same story, and in the context of the Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles"):

Heinlein's flat cats are often said to have been the inspiration for the tribbles of the Star Trek episode "The Trouble with Tribbles". (Heinlein himself said he may have gotten the idea from Ellis Parker Butler's 1905 story "Pigs Is Pigs".) David Gerrold, the author of the episode, claims that he had read the Heinlein book years before writing his screenplay and was not consciously aware of the similarities until Desilu/Paramount conducted a routine studio clearances review following an inquiry by Kellam de Forest, its primary in-house researcher. This prompted a contact with Heinlein who admitted the similarities but also graciously waived all rights, Heinlein asking only for an autographed copy of the script.

No reference to "Doc" Smith's work, but that doesn't prove anything --- just that The Rolling Stone's "Flat Cats" ideological predecessors were apparently guinea pigs in the Ellis Parker Butler story. :)

I've heard it stated that, eventually, almost all writers end up "recycling" ideas of others...looks like this may be the case, even here. :p

We now return this thread to its original intent, a discussion of the history of the uber-cool rockets from MPC (of which, incidentally, my favorite is the Theta-Cajun) :D

[DeanHFox]

Stine was very close to Heinlein, so the Flat Cat name has an obvious explanation of which I was unaware until now. I thought it was a Grumman aircraft reference; they named all their aircraft after types of 'Cat'.I was an avid reader of both men's works when I was a young boy --- my first science fiction book was "Starship Through Space" by Stine (under his Lee Correy pseudonym). My favorite Heinlein story has always been "Have Space Suit, Will Travel".

It was not until 30-plus years later that I learned that those two books, from my two favorite authors, were actually dedicated to each other!

Stine's Starship states, "To Ginny and Bob", while Heinlein's "Space Suit" is dedicated "For Harry and Barbara Stine".

I wonder what RAH's opinion of model rocketry was? I don't believe it was ever mentioned in any of his books...and the two books mentioned above were published in 1954 and 1958, respectively, well before the "launch" of our hobby. Ah, well. Not the most earth-shattering of questions, but it would be interesting, in this "historical" thread, if anyone out there had ever asked G. Harry about his interactions with the Grand Master of SF. :)

[pterodactyl]

Dean,

There's a Heinlein/Stine anecdote which I recall without remembering its source. As the story goes after Heinlein's death someone asked Stine if was going to speak at the funeral, to which Stine replied "Would you be able to speak at your father's funeral?". Not exactly a direct interaction but it speaks to Stine's feelings on RAH.

Here's an image for you from the National Collection.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFS6FNhU0AAkrMB.jpg:large

[DeanHFox]

Dean,

Here's an image for you from the National Collection.Pat, she's a beauty. Thanks! :)

[blackshire]

Dean,

There's a Heinlein/Stine anecdote which I recall without remembering its source. As the story goes after Heinlein's death someone asked Stine if was going to speak at the funeral, to which Stine replied "Would you be able to speak at your father's funeral?". Not exactly a direct interaction but it speaks to Stine's feelings on RAH.

Here's an image for you from the National Collection.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFS6FNhU0AAkrMB.jpg:largeThere is a side-by-side photograph of two of that rocket, which is rather reminiscent of Centuri's Excalibur (or maybe it's a "split-screen," before-and-after picture--it shows an un-decorated one and a fully-decaled one) in Stine's Arco-published "The New Model Rocketry Manual." Its 15 mm diameter upper section looks similar to the second stage of the AVI Space Angel, which used the same 5:1 tangent ogive nose cone (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73avi04.html ); maybe it was inspired by the design in the book?

[LeeR]

Thank you both [correction: all three of you]--I may have been mistaken about who invented the flat cat (I haven't read any of Smith's or Heinlein's stories, but I read somewhere about Smith incorporating the creatures in his works; maybe they both used them?).

blackshire,

My introduction to Heinlein was discovering his juvenile series books in my junior high library in the 7th grade. The Rolling Stones and Rocket Ship Galileo hooked me on Heinlein. My favorite as a kid was Red Planet. When my oldest daughter was in 5th grade, I turned her loose on my collection, with a few of his adult-content books pulled from selection. She went on to be a voracious reader, and a big fan of science fiction. She became an an English teacher probably as a result.

You really ought to give his works a try.

[stefanj]

You may have solved this mystery with that one word ("plastic")--you jogged my memory of the scanned Nike-Patriot instructions on the Ninfinger Productions website. A high-quality spiral-wound kraft paper tube with a thin plastic overwrap (which might also have "soaked" into the upper layer of the paper, if the plastic was applied in a dissolved liquid [or molten] form) could also have the same physical characteristics as the MPC tubes, especially if the cured (or cooled & solidified) plastic was stiff (had a low elastic modulus). It would also--depending on its composition--be perfect for making strong plastic-to-plastic bonds (with the MPC styrene plastic launch lugs, for example), using ordinary plastic cement (if I recall correctly, the instructions called for using tube-type plastic cement).
I don't think the tubes are as "plastic" as you speculate. I think we're dealing with really good quality paper tubes with a wrap that is coated paper.

I have some scraps of T-20 and might try to do a peel and see what the bond is like.

CMR tubing was similar. Used the same metric sizing. I had compartively fewer CMR kits through the years.

[blackshire]

blackshire,

My introduction to Heinlein was discovering his juvenile series books in my junior high library in the 7th grade. The Rolling Stones and Rocket Ship Galileo hooked me on Heinlein. My favorite as a kid was Red Planet. When my oldest daughter was in 5th grade, I turned her loose on my collection, with a few of his adult-content books pulled from selection. She went on to be a voracious reader, and a big fan of science fiction. She became an an English teacher probably as a result.

You really ought to give his works a try.Yes, some of his later works, as I've read from reviewers, weren't for juvenile consumption, but his earlier ones seem very entertaining and insightful.

[blackshire]

I don't think the tubes are as "plastic" as you speculate. I think we're dealing with really good quality paper tubes with a wrap that is coated paper.

I have some scraps of T-20 and might try to do a peel and see what the bond is like.

CMR tubing was similar. Used the same metric sizing. I had compartively fewer CMR kits through the years.That could very well be, as I don't have any "loose" examples of their tubing to examine (my few MPC kits are sealed, and the few built MPC rockets I have are painted).

[Joe Wooten]

I've heard it stated that, eventually, almost all writers end up "recycling" ideas of others...looks like this may be the case, even here. :p



RAH himself once said writers, him included, will rub the serial numbers off an idea and re-use it ad infinitum.

[SEL]

Seems like a good place to post these:

Below are a couple of MRI pieces. The first is an instruction card and nichrome igniter wire that came with their motors. Apparently there were 2 versions, one lightly larger. Pictured are the front and back. Both sizes are identical, except that on the larger card, both sides are printed in red.

The second is a detail of a MRI parachute that came with a kit I bought back in 67/68 from a Hobby Shop in Woburn, Ma. Not sure, but I think it was the Icarus. Very thick plastic, and I remember it being quite difficult to stuff into the min. diameter tube.

Sean

[stefanj]

The MRI kits I bought back in the day (from AVI) mostly had streamers. They were made of thick, hard-to-uncurl blue plastic. Really weird. I believe these came with the Zeus and Lepus

I have an MRI parachute; I think it came with the FLARE kit. Different color pattern.

[tbzep]

RAH himself once said writers, him included, will rub the serial numbers off an idea and re-use it ad infinitum.
Every time I see those initials, I pronounce it as the name Ra and think of Stargate SG-1. :rolleyes:

[tbzep]

I have an MRI parachute; I think it came with the FLARE kit. Different color pattern.
Dig it out and post a pic since it is different. :cool:

[Blastfromthepast]

Back in the day, I put in an order to MPC and purchased Flat Cat, Lunar Patrol, Flare Patriot, and Theta Cajun kits. They were all cool rockets that looked and flew very nicely. Also had purchased a few packages of MPC engines. Most worked well except for an A3 that CATO'd and destroyed the Lunar Patrol booster. I also purchased (from AVI) the MRI Icarus. That was a nice sport bird that flew very well. I believe I have an old pic of that one that I will scan and post if I can find it. Clone builds of all these rockets are on my shop docket, though I suspect most of them will be built with Estes body tubes and lathe-turned nose cones. I might have to do a small amount of scaling work to make them true to proportion.
A few years ago, late 1990s, I ran across a couple of MPC rocket kits at an antique mall in Colorado Springs. I kick myself for not picking those up.....

[Doug Sams]

A few years ago, late 1990s, I ran across a couple of MPC rocket kits at an antique mall in Colorado Springs. I kick myself for not picking those up.....Mike,

At that time, had you seen "October Sky" yet? (I think it came out in late 98.)

Doug

.

[blackshire]

Back in the day, I put in an order to MPC and purchased Flat Cat, Lunar Patrol, Flare Patriot, and Theta Cajun kits. They were all cool rockets that looked and flew very nicely. Also had purchased a few packages of MPC engines. Most worked well except for an A3 that CATO'd and destroyed the Lunar Patrol booster. I also purchased (from AVI) the MRI Icarus. That was a nice sport bird that flew very well. I believe I have an old pic of that one that I will scan and post if I can find it. Clone builds of all these rockets are on my shop docket, though I suspect most of them will be built with Estes body tubes and lathe-turned nose cones. I might have to do a small amount of scaling work to make them true to proportion.
A few years ago, late 1990s, I ran across a couple of MPC rocket kits at an antique mall in Colorado Springs. I kick myself for not picking those up.....Quest Aerospace http://www.questaerospace.com/ sells many of the MPC nose cones, transitions, and fin units, and all of the MPC-size body tubes.

[stefanj]

I cloned a MRI Lepus a few years ago, using the cone from my old MRI "Flare" and an actual MPC body tube. Sturdy as heck; I finally launched it on a C6-7 and it plain disappeared.

I have enough Semroc parts to make a couple of Lepus and Zeus clones. I believe I gave a set to SEL as well.

[SEL]

I cloned a MRI Lepus a few years ago, using the cone from my old MRI "Flare" and an actual MPC body tube. Sturdy as heck; I finally launched it on a C6-7 and it plain disappeared.

I have enough Semroc parts to make a couple of Lepus and Zeus clones. I believe I gave a set to SEL as well.

Yes, you did. The Lepus has been awaiting a paint job to quite some time now...

[SEL]

Seems like a good place to post these:

Below are a couple of MRI pieces. The first is an instruction card and nichrome igniter wire that came with their motors. Apparently there were 2 versions, one lightly larger. Pictured are the front and back. Both sizes are identical, except that on the larger card, both sides are printed in red.

The second is a detail of a MRI parachute that came with a kit I bought back in 67/68 from a Hobby Shop in Woburn, Ma. Not sure, but I think it was the Icarus. Very thick plastic, and I remember it being quite difficult to stuff into the min. diameter tube.

Sean

This was included in an ebay auction win circa mid-2000's. I confirmed w/Stefan (SEJ) at a club launch on Saturday what I thought I remembered, that this is a MRI Launch Pad. It's very small, the legs are only 6'' long. The bag is stapled shut but its never been opened, so I need to decide if I want to let the MRI pixie dust otut and set it up to take a picture. I have a launch rod around here somewhere that I think came with the pad. looks a bit different from the standard Estes/Centuri type of the time period; It has more of a copper-y color to it. The red rubber ball is so you don't put your eye out, kid.

[stefanj]

It would be appropriate to pose a finished Lepus on there!

As I recall, the MRI instructions had a little schematic for launch circuit. The starter set must have had a launch controller, and I believe I saw a picture set of an MRI starter set here a year or two ago.

[SEL]

It would be appropriate to pose a finished Lepus on there!

As I recall, the MRI instructions had a little schematic for launch circuit. The starter set must have had a launch controller, and I believe I saw a picture set of an MRI starter set here a year or two ago.

I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures, too - possibly in Model Rocketry Magazine ads.
As soon as I finish the 'Lepus' you gave me, I'll set it up on the Launch Pad and post the photos.

Sean

[Initiator001]

...And found these.

Here are three MPC kits that were part of that 'find' around 1990.
While I found MPC kits in an out-of-the-way hobby shop near Las Vegas,
these kits were from a hobby shop in the Los Angeles area.

I bought a couple of each kit and opened the ones where the packaging had been damaged.

In the case of the Lunar Patrol, the cutting pattern for the parts was printed on the balsa sheet. Centuri did this with some of their kits too.

Well, since the boxes are opened I guess I will just have to build them. ;)

I don't know about the paint schemes. Pink fins on the Flare Patriot? :confused: :eek:

[stefanj]

Hey. If the box shows pink fins and a silver body tube, you are morally obligated to do it that way.

We'll be carefully watching the build thread.

(I actually have a can of pink spray paint. I used it on a "Mrs. Hustler," a slightly downscale Hustler.)


I have a Microsonde 3, a Lunar Patrol, and a couple of those "build it three ways" kits. I plan on giving them "catalog finishes," or in the case of MPC box finishes.

The Microsonde, I figure I'll fly on a 1/2A6-0 - 1/2A6-0 - A6-4 combo.

[blackshire]

...And found these.

Here are three MPC kits that were part of that 'find' around 1990.
While I found MPC kits in an out-of-the-way hobby shop near Las Vegas,
these kits were from a hobby shop in the Los Angeles area.

I bought a couple of each kit and opened the ones where the packaging had been damaged.

In the case of the Lunar Patrol, the cutting pattern for the parts was printed on the balsa sheet. Centuri did this with some of their kits too.

Well, since the boxes are opened I guess I will just have to build them. ;)

I don't know about the paint schemes. Pink fins on the Flare Patriot? :confused: :eek:The Flare Patriot's fins look lavender--like a lady unicorn's eye shadow--to me. Also:

The "missing" MPC parts (those that Quest [you can see their parts here: www.questaerospace.com/Model_Rocket_Parts/cat4193206_3447166.aspx ] doesn't have, such as the Pegasus MK II's T20 size plastic fin unit [MPC's Pioneer 1 also used it] and the Lunar Patrol gliders' T15 size nose cones' *bases*), could be reproduced by either of our "resident" rockets/parts 3D printers (Aerobotix www.shapeways.com/shops/cespedesign-multimedia?s=0#more-products and Boyce Aerospace Hobbies http://boyceaerospacehobbies.com/ ). All of the MPC kits can be seen *here* (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/74avicat.html ).

[stefanj]

Another missing part: The goofy Mercury-oid space capsule used in some kits.

In one case a length of T-5 was added between the conical portion and the blunt tip. The first MPC kit I purchased, probably in late 1970, had that. (Ah, thanks for catalog link, Blackshire . . . "Redstone Maverick.")

Another: The foam saucers from the Martian Patrol. That also uses a weird cone/transition.

* * *
I built and finished a Nike Patriot last summer. A good, sturdy sport flyer. Sand and fill those sturdy "fiber" tubes and you get a great finish.

* * *
If I didn't have ten zillion unbuilt kits and projects, I'd make an upscale Moon Go. BT-60 upper section, with a BMS Gemini capsule.

[blackshire]

Another missing part: The goofy Mercury-oid space capsule used in some kits.

In one case a length of T-5 was added between the conical portion and the blunt tip. The first MPC kit I purchased, probably in late 1970, had that. (Ah, thanks for catalog link, Blackshire . . . "Redstone Maverick.")

Another: The foam saucers from the Martian Patrol. That also uses a weird cone/transition.

* * *
I built and finished a Nike Patriot last summer. A good, sturdy sport flyer. Sand and fill those sturdy "fiber" tubes and you get a great finish.

* * *
If I didn't have ten zillion unbuilt kits and projects, I'd make an upscale Moon Go. BT-60 upper section, with a BMS Gemini capsule.You're welcome. Ah yes, the Moon-Go! The Redstone Quasar may be the kit (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/74avi03.html )--there may be more, also--that use the long-cone-with-blunt-ogive-tip-piece nose cone with a length of T15 tubing between the conical and blunt ogive tip sections. I never had a Moon-Go; did you mean that its Mercury-oid capsule could also have a length of T15 tubing inserted between two sections of it? Also:

The Martian Patrol's foam saucers could be reproduced by first 3D printing one or more ABS or acrylic duplicates (using the measurements of an original one to create the print file), then pouring a two-part, vented, "alignment-keyed" RTV rubber mold over it/them. Various types of liquid expanding foam could then be used to cast more foam saucer gliders. Plus:

Quest doesn't--although they once did--make the plastic fin assemblies that used external plastic fin-locking rings (G. Harry Stine used these for customizing, by cutting the fins to desired planform shapes with a hot knife). These fins and lock rings could also be 3D printed, and:

3D printing could be used to create plastic duplicates of the T15 size, balsa 5:1 tangent ogive and elliptical nose cones which were used in the MPC and AVI Miniroc kits (the MPC plastic detail parts set could be 3D printed as well, "off" the "trees" that the originals were injected-molded on; these parts could be used to detail any MPC/AVI/Quest kit).

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

...And found these.

Here are three MPC kits that were part of that 'find' around 1990.
While I found MPC kits in an out-of-the-way hobby shop near Las Vegas,
these kits were from a hobby shop in the Los Angeles area.

I bought a couple of each kit and opened the ones where the packaging had been damaged.

In the case of the Lunar Patrol, the cutting pattern for the parts was printed on the balsa sheet. Centuri did this with some of their kits too.

Well, since the boxes are opened I guess I will just have to build them. ;)

I don't know about the paint schemes. Pink fins on the Flare Patriot? :confused: :eek:

I have a Flare Patriot in white at the moment, but I don't think I'll be going with the pink/lavender fins like the box art. Still trying to come up with something fitting. Also keeping in mind how little fun it is working with those decals. :rolleyes:

[Ez2cDave]

I send people free Fedex Ground labels and shipping lablels to preserve collections for free. I don't ask that many questions about what is in the boxes.

Hmm . . . "Model Airplane Parts" ?

LOL !

Dave F.

[ghrocketman]

I LIKED the "Model Aircraft Parts" shipment method that was previously used.
Motors should have ZERO shipment regulations.

[Rcktflyer]

I don't know if Euclid made them or not, but they were capable of doing it. You could order up just about anything from them.

CMR tubes were made by Stone Industries and were "wet" wrapped not "dry" wrapped like Euclid tubes.

[blackshire]

I cloned a MRI Lepus a few years ago, using the cone from my old MRI "Flare" and an actual MPC body tube. Sturdy as heck; I finally launched it on a C6-7 and it plain disappeared.

I have enough Semroc parts to make a couple of Lepus and Zeus clones. I believe I gave a set to SEL as well.Balsa Machining Service (BMS), Semroc, and Quest--between them--have most if not all of the original MPC and AVI body tubes, motor mount tubes, display booster tubes (possibly including the 5 mm O.D. Taurus-1 booster tubes [if not, a 1/8" launch lug with one wrap of self-adhesive label paper matches the 5 mm outside diameter]), transition sections, and nose cones. Also:

The MPC Taurus-1 kit's http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/74avi07.html 5 mm diameter booster nose cones and exhaust nozzles (as well as the other plastic parts in the plastic "Customizing Parts Sets" that came in MPC and AVI kits, and in early Quest catalogs (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/quest93/93quest22.html ), are easy to duplicate as solid-cast resin parts in one-piece RTV--Room Temperature-Vulcanizing--rubber molds (see my primer, "Resin Casting for Rocketeers" http://www.ninfinger.org/models/rms_tips/resin_cast.html , on the Ninfinger Productions http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rockets.html website). They can also be 3D printed; the late Bruce Levison ("teflonrocketry1") 3D printed some Taurus-1 booster nose cones & nozzles, and T15 (15 mm diameter, for the MPC Miniroc kits) 5:1 tangent ogive and elliptical (for the MPC Miniroc Pipsqueak kit) nose cones for me.

[mikeyd]

The Taurus-1 chrome parts kits, were the same as the ones included in the Moon-Go kits
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/02/mpc-taurus-1-build-part-1-parts.html
and 3d versions can be found here
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4880427
and another version here
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4827180

[blackshire]

The Taurus-1 chrome parts kits, were the same as the ones included in the Moon-Go kits
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2013/02/mpc-taurus-1-build-part-1-parts.html
and 3d versions can be found here
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4880427
and another version here
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4827180Thank you for posting those links! I'm glad to know that those parts, 3D printed--and the nose cones, fins, etc.--can be ordered online. All of the MPC Miniroc kits appear to have come with the injection-molded customizing parts sets (so did the MPC Viper kit my father built 40+ years ago), but not all of them are aluminized ("chromed"); in some of the kits I've bought, they are black plastic, with no "chroming" on them, and:

Does anyone offer 3D printed MPC Lunar-Lectric launch pads and launch controllers? They had useful little convenience features (the pad's microclip lead supports for front-motor boost-gliders and its wind direction vane, and the launch controller's vehicle cigarette lighter/spotlight plug).

[ghrocketman]

At one point I believe MPC was owned by either Post or Kellogg's cereal company.
Cereal-Box toys.... :chuckle:

[blackshire]

At one point I believe MPC was owned by either Post or Kellogg's cereal company.
Cereal-Box toys.... :chuckle:You're close (it was [is--MPC makes model rocket kits today] a cereal company). The citation at the bottom of the card stock back of my Taurus-1 and ASP-1 kits says:

MODEL PRODUCTS OF GENERAL MILLS FUN GROUP, INC.
MOUNT CLEMENS, MICH. 48043

[ghrocketman]

I knew it was some cereal company out of my home state, thanks for confirmation !

[blackshire]

I knew it was some cereal company out of my home state, thanks for confirmation !You're welcome. The ones that MPC sells today, *as* model rocket kits, are quite good (see: https://www.google.com/search?q=MPC+model+rockets&sxsrf=ALeKk00s6DUZR7gu5xfXs3VbAELm8n2gkw%3A1627349769849&source=hp&ei=CWP_YOGdMYrM-gTg1Jj4Ag&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAYP9xGcmVLFeE3OE48RNOUhDD-q-nQF4U&oq=MPC+model+rockets&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEBYQHjoECCMQJzoFCAAQsQM6CAgAELEDEIMBOgIIADoICC4QsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOggILhDHARCvAToECAAQCjoFCAAQyQNQ4iBYmV9gg2RoAHAAeACAAZwBiAG0EZIBBDAuMTeYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwihxtGnjoLyAhUKpp4KHWAqBi8Q4dUDCAo&uact=5 ). (They still offer the "flight or display" Vostok and Titan IIIC kits [see: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=MPC+Vostok+Titan+IIIC+kits&_sacat=0 ], but only as display kits. However, only a few parts need to be added, or made, in order to build them as flyable models, although being plastic [like the Cox RTF rockets], they need pretty high-impulse motors for their size.)

[stefanj]

Does anyone offer 3D printed MPC Lunar-Lectric launch pads and launch controllers? They had useful little convenience features (the pad's microclip lead supports for front-motor boost-gliders and its wind direction vane, and the launch controller's vehicle cigarette lighter/spotlight plug).

The launch pad design was used by a later manufacturer. MRC? Custom? It didn't use the little flag and I'm not sure if it used the clip support mast.

If you're ever in Oregon, go to the Sun River Science Center. One of my MPC pads, and an original Moon-Go, is on display.

[Chas Russell]

I beleive that Quest used the launch pad, but without the wind indicater.

Chas

[hcmbanjo]

The launch pad design was used by a later manufacturer. MRC? Custom? It didn't use the little flag and I'm not sure if it used the clip support mast.

Canaroc used the MPC launcher, without the ceramic blast deflector.
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/canaroc78/78can20.html

[Chas Russell]

Thanks, Chris. I knew that it didn't go away. Just forgot about our friends to the north.
I do have two original ceramic blast deflectors. Aways surprised that they ddn't catch on.

Chas

[Faithwalker]

The launch pad design was used by a later manufacturer. MRC? Custom? It didn't use the little flag and I'm not sure if it used the clip support mast.
Space Models International, Inc. (SMI) also used the exact same launch pad after MPC and Canaroc did. The SMI version did not have the ceramic blast deflector either, nor did it have the spring stand-offs on the mast.

https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/pubs/SMI/SMI_ProductSheet.jpg

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR

[Chas Russell]

I probably have that poster somewhere. I do have a boxed CANROC Black Brant V kit and a Starship Antares kit. Plus several 18mm and 24mm motors.

Chas

[Faithwalker]

I probably have that poster somewhere. I do have a boxed CANROC Black Brant V kit and a Starship Antares kit. Plus several 18mm and 24mm motors.

Chas
SMI used almost the exact same poster as Canaroc, minus the engines.

Here they are side by side.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR

[mojo1986]

So, did Canaroc become SMI? Or vice versa?

[Chas Russell]

Canaroc was the original company.

Chas

[ghrocketman]

I have several Canaroc motors somewhere as well.
I think they are all composite if I remember correctly.
Can't even read the motor designations anymore, but think they are all "Bs".

[hcmbanjo]

Thanks, Chris. I knew that it didn't go away. Just forgot about our friends to the north.
I do have two original ceramic blast deflectors. Always surprised that they ddn't catch on. Chas

Well, I had ceramic blast deflectors made to the old MPC size. Sold them as an Odd'l Rockets product for a few years.
The last order I received weren't molded clean so I had to toss about half of them.

[blackshire]

The launch pad design was used by a later manufacturer. MRC? Custom? It didn't use the little flag and I'm not sure if it used the clip support mast.

If you're ever in Oregon, go to the Sun River Science Center. One of my MPC pads, and an original Moon-Go, is on display.Yes, I recall that (but not *which* other model rocket company--besides AVI--that adopted the MPC Lunar-Lectric launch pad and launch controller [as CANAROC used the Cox launch pad and launch controller]). I'll never travel any significant distance again--except in a plastic bag.

[blackshire]

Well, I had ceramic blast deflectors made to the old MPC size. Sold them as an Odd'l Rockets product for a few years.
The last order I received weren't molded clean so I had to toss about half of them.MPC blast deflectors could be made of a polyurethane (or epoxy) casting resin/ceramic micro-spheres (they're like the hollow glass micro-balloons [micro-bulb filler], but are solid) mixture, in single-cavity, RTV (Room Temperature-Vulcanizing) rubber molds (multiple single-cavity RTV rubber molds [for making them in quantity], that is). Such blast deflectors (which you could make on your kitchen table; I made Por-A-Kast and Alumilite resin 5:1 tangent ogive BT-5 nose cones [with "investment-cast" screw eyes] for my Nova Hobbies ASP kits that way, using a single-cavity RTV rubber mold) should easily withstand the brief exposures to the motor exhaust. (The black-styrene-with-chopped-glass-fibers Cox motor retainers withstood the in-flight motor exhaust heat well, as did the Estes RTF "Firing Line" rockets' styrene motor retainer rings.) Also:

Earlier this month, I had a new crown made for one of my upper teeth, and they made it out of a thermo-setting plastic resin/ceramic micro-spheres mixture, which was cured in a curing oven. The polyurethane and epoxy casting resins (Ciba-Geigy, PolyTek, Por-A-Kast, Alumilite, etc.) "provide their own curing heat" after being mixed and having any fillers and/or coloring dyes mixed in, which cures them in their RTV rubber molds. (Rigid molds made of the cured resins themselves can also be used, after spraying their inner surfaces with a wax-based mold release compound, but in my experience--and that of most resin casters--the commonly-used tin-cure and platinum-cure RTV rubber molds work just fine.)

[Initiator001]

So, did Canaroc become SMI? Or vice versa?

Canaroc was the original company as Chas mentioned.

At some point Canaroc was bought by Irwin Toy I think and closed down by the early 1980s.

During the 'Rockets are the hot new product' time of the late 1980s-early 1990s some folks decided to revive the Canaroc product line under a new name, Space Models International (SMI).

SMI received a lot of notice at one of the RCHTA Shows and Great Planes picked up the line and promoted it.

One thing SMI was going to do was make motors in both Canada and the United States. This would avoid the issues with transporting the motors over the boarder.
The American production site would be in Texas as I recall.

I actually called and spoke with 'someone' (Forgot his name) who was handling the American side of the motor production.

Some SMI motors were submitted to the NAR S & T for certification. The motors did not pass.

SMI faded after a few months and disappeared.

Many years later the remaining unused motors from the S & T testing were sold at a NARAM auction.

I wonder who won the auction on these motors... :rolleyes: ;)

[Faithwalker]

Yes, I recall that (but not *which* other model rocket company--besides AVI--that adopted the MPC Lunar-Lectric launch pad and launch controller [as CANAROC used the Cox launch pad and launch controller]).
Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated (AVI) acquired the MPC model rocketry products in mid-late 1972 and they started selling the MPC launch pad with AVI branding by December 1972.

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73avi08.html

Canaroc acquired rights to use the MPC launch pad after AVI did. Canaroc re-tooled the molds and added the Canaroc logo on their version of the pad. Afterwards, SMI was next in line to use the MPC launch pad design after Canaroc. Canaroc did not ever use the Cox launch pad, but they did use the Cox controller, and so did SMI. AVI used the MPC Lunar-Lectric launch controller as can be seen in the 1973 AVI catalog.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR

[blackshire]

Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated (AVI) acquired the MPC model rocketry products in mid-late 1972 and they started selling the MPC launch pad with AVI branding by December 1972.

https://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73avi08.html

Canaroc acquired rights to use the MPC launch pad after AVI did. Canaroc re-tooled the molds and added the Canaroc logo on their version of the pad. Afterwards, SMI was next in line to use the MPC launch pad design after Canaroc. Canaroc did not ever use the Cox launch pad, but they did use the Cox controller, and so did SMI. AVI used the MPC Lunar-Lectric launch controller as can be seen in the 1973 AVI catalog.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR*Nods*--yes, they're in the AVI 1973 catalog http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73avi08.html (with a flat metal disc blast deflector) on the Ninfinger Productions website.

[hcmbanjo]

Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated (AVI) acquired the MPC model rocketry products in mid-late 1972 and they started selling the MPC launch pad with AVI branding by December 1972.
Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins

Your post might imply that AVI was a whole different entity.
AVI was still Myke and Dianne Bergenske.
Myke started MRI (Model Rocket Industries) which evolved and was picked up by MPC (Model Products Corporation).
After MPC rocketry closed up, Myke got a lot of the MPC inventory, tool and dies and started AVI (Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated)
Those MPC plastic molds and some designs were among the first kits from Quest.

[blackshire]

Your post might imply that AVI was a whole different entity.
AVI was still Myke and Dianne Bergenske.
Myke started MRI (Model Rocket Industries) which evolved and was picked up by MPC (Model Products Corporation).
After MPC rocketry closed up, Myke got a lot of the MPC inventory, tool and dies and started AVI (Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated)
Those MPC plastic molds and some designs were among the first kits from Quest.Did they also own AVI Astroport (an "expanded-name" AVI?)? I saw it listed in a 1978 issue of NASA's "This Is NASA" house organ, in the section listing model rocket suppliers (Robert Frosch was the NASA Administrator at the time; a forward by him was in it).

[stefanj]

Yes. AVI = AVI Astroport.

I still have at last one of their giant newsprint catalogs. All sorts of model and hobby stuff. I guess they drop shipped the stuff? Maybe did distribution as a sideline?

[ghrocketman]

AVI had some cool motors back in the day.
I still have some.

[blackshire]

Yes. AVI = AVI Astroport.

I still have at last one of their giant newsprint catalogs. All sorts of model and hobby stuff. I guess they drop shipped the stuff? Maybe did distribution as a sideline?Thank you. Hmmm...Centuri had the tabloid (newspaper)-type catalogs, too (beginning in 1975), only returning to the smaller book-type format in 1979; I wonder if Centuri adopted AVI Astroport's catalog format (I *think* AVI's last book-type catalog was the 1974 one: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/74avif.html ).

[blackshire]

AVI had some cool motors back in the day.
I still have some.Did their motors have aluminized Mylar casing wraps/labels? I've heard that they fit completely (not at all loosely) in rockets and motor mounts, yet didn't "grab" because the wraps were slick.

[ghrocketman]

The AVI motors I have are just plain glossy cardboard like Estes motors.
They had a long (like Estes F length) 18mm D 2.3 that waz really cool.

[Faithwalker]

Your post might imply that AVI was a whole different entity.
AVI was still Myke and Dianne Bergenske.
Myke started MRI (Model Rocket Industries) which evolved and was picked up by MPC (Model Products Corporation).
After MPC rocketry closed up, Myke got a lot of the MPC inventory, tool and dies and started AVI (Aerospace Vehicles Incorporated)
Those MPC plastic molds and some designs were among the first kits from Quest.
Agree. See https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=19719 for early AVI reference material.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR

[PaulK]

Well, I had ceramic blast deflectors made to the old MPC size. Sold them as an Odd'l Rockets product for a few years.
The last order I received weren't molded clean so I had to toss about half of them.Wish you still offered those, I was looking for some recently, and didn't realize they were no longer available.

[blackshire]

The AVI motors I have are just plain glossy cardboard like Estes motors.
They had a long (like Estes F length) 18mm D 2.3 that waz really cool.Thank you. That might have been one of their "vaporware" offerings, like their Nike-Tomahawk kit.

[stefanj]

Thank you. That might have been one of their "vaporware" offerings, like their Nike-Tomahawk kit.
The AVI "Gold Line" motors were a real thing, offered for a few years.

I recall flying with the 24mm "E", and several of the 35mm (!) E and F motors. These had a nice mix of high initial thrust and long burn.

I made a big (for the time) minimum diameter model from T-35 tubing, with a Nike Smoke nose cone and trapezoidal fins. I think I built a booster stage for it, but never bought a booster motor to try it out.

It flew nicely. Eventually lost it.

[ghrocketman]

AVI actually offered their 29mm composite "Delta Vee" motors for a few years also.
Those came after their oddball 35mm Gold Series.
The Delta-Vee F was almost a full-power F at 79n-sec.

[blackshire]

Interesting--I wonder what happened to their motor-making machines? All I knew of this "family" of rockets (MPC/AVI) was a Viper kit that my father had built; it came with all of the little customizing parts (aluminized, in that case--I much later found that not all of them were).

[Initiator001]

Interesting--I wonder what happened to their motor-making machines? All I knew of this "family" of rockets (MPC/AVI) was a Viper kit that my father had built; it came with all of the little customizing parts (aluminized, in that case--I much later found that not all of them were).

The MPC motor machines ended up with FSI.

I believe somewhere in this thread I discussed this.

[Initiator001]

Thank you. That might have been one of their "vaporware" offerings, like their Nike-Tomahawk kit.

The Nike-Tomahawk kit may have never made it into production but MPC DID create a mold for the Nike-Tomahawk transition/adaptor.

[blackshire]

The MPC motor machines ended up with FSI.

I believe somewhere in this thread I discussed this.My apologies; I haven't read the entire thread yet (but will do so now). Thank you. Also:


The Nike-Tomahawk kit may have never made it into production but MPC DID create a mold for the Nike-Tomahawk transition/adaptor.Does that transition mold still exist, hopefully in usable condition (the part could be 3D printed today, of course)? (Having looked into getting an injection-molding company to create the tooling to produce injection-molded, BT-5 size, 5:1 tangent ogive noses cones for my Nova Hobbies ASP kits [see: https://www.rocketreviews.com/nova-hobbies-asp-mike-goss.html ] was quite an eye-opening experience, which demonstrated why such nose cones are usually used only by larger model rocket companies; the lowest price--for just a single-cavity injection mold--that I could find at the time [the late 1990s] was about $5,000!) Also, I have some news to share:

I can't go into detail about it yet, but we should soon (*touches alicorn tip to cloven forehoof*) be able to get high-quality, 3D printed MPC/AVI Miniroc nose cones (the 15 mm diameter 5:1 tangent ogive and elliptical noses, and the 5 mm diameter simulated booster nose cones and exhaust nozzles [from the Customizing Parts Set: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/quest93/93quest22.html - these are used in the MPC/AVI Taurus-1 kit <a 3" long, 1/8" launch lug with one wrap of self-adhesive label paper applied to it matches the 5 mm booster tube size>]). I'll post more about this soon, "whichever way it breaks," but it looks good so far.

[blackshire]

The instructions for the Nike-Patriot I'm building refer, in the step where the plastic launch lug is glued on, to the tube covering as "plastic."

I think the tube core is just really high quality paper. Dense, completely wrapped. No gaps.

Least-favorite tube has a brown inner layer that isn't complete; held together by the outer layer.

I wonder if Myke Bergenske would remember these details, or if Bill Stine could help.

* * *
Other oddments for this thread:

* AVI produced its own motors for a short time. Same as the MPC motors, but with funky 1970s labeling.
* At least one MPC kit had, on the instruction sheet's suggested motor list, what appear to be FSI motors! D4, D6, etc. Were these really FSI motors, or vaporware MPC motors?
* Who designed and build the MRI / MPC / AVI motor making machine?
* What became of the 13 mm motor making machine? Or was were those motors made on the bigger machine with some kind of alternate tooling set?If those motor-making machines (last reported to have been in FSI's possession) are still around and can be restored to operational condition, I'd love to be able to buy those MPC and AVI motors, including--and especially--the "long-case" A and B 13 mm mini motors (the Minijet motors). Even Estes' version of the Centuri Star Trooper kit (which originally used their [Centuri's] 4:1 tangent ogive plastic nose cone; Estes' Gnome 4:1 tangent ogive is very nearly identical) could use the A and B Minijets, as that kit was designed to use Centuri's own "long-case" A and B 13 mm mini motors.

[blackshire]

I don't know if Euclid made them or not, but they were capable of doing it. You could order up just about anything from them.I concur. Euclid made the body tubes for my Nova Hobbies ASP kits (see: https://www.rocketreviews.com/nova-hobbies-asp-mike-goss.html ). I just called them up and told them what I wanted ("the same tubing as Estes Industries' BT-5 [I also included the inside/outside diameters and wall thickness, and the length], with the smallest outer surface spiral gap you can manage"), and they said, "Sure, we can make as many of those as you want." During our conversation I also mentioned the "softness" (greater susceptibility to being dented and creased, which I wanted to avoid) of latter-day body tubes as opposed to the stiffer, usually brown body tubes found in older kits, and they explained to me about virgin kraft (the older tubes) and recycled kraft paper tubes (whose chopped, shorter fibers make the tubes "softer"). If memory serves, I went with a virgin kraft tube, with an outer white wrap of recycled kraft (since the outermost layer isn't that "structurally significant," and a white outer wrap looks nicer and makes for easier painting [on older "brown tube" rockets, I always had to apply a base coat of white so that subsequent, colored coats would dry to the correct hues]).

[blackshire]

This is the later ARCO published version of the book you mention. It is indeed MPC focused.What color is the binding? I have a copy of "The New Model Rocketry Manual" (minus the dust jacket) that was published by ARCO (Copyright 1977 G. Harry Stine), that I'd bought from an AbeBooks bookseller. Its fabric-covered hardcover is bright red, with "THE NEW MODEL ROCKETRY MANUAL STINE ARCO" on the spine in embossed, attractive silver (or aluminum; it's as shiny as if it were made yesterday) all-capital lettering. Also:

It is definitely "MPC-centric" (in terms of the model rockets and parts shown, although a couple of Centuri and Estes ones also appear), but quite a few of the photographs' captions (the "group photo" showing Stine's competition rockets made from MPC kits and/or parts [also in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry"] is a prototypical example) are carefully worded to emphasize--in so many words--that "all model rockets are broadly similar to these that are shown."

[blackshire]

This was included in an ebay auction win circa mid-2000's. I confirmed w/Stefan (SEJ) at a club launch on Saturday what I thought I remembered, that this is a MRI Launch Pad. It's very small, the legs are only 6'' long. The bag is stapled shut but its never been opened, so I need to decide if I want to let the MRI pixie dust otut and set it up to take a picture. I have a launch rod around here somewhere that I think came with the pad. looks a bit different from the standard Estes/Centuri type of the time period; It has more of a copper-y color to it. The red rubber ball is so you don't put your eye out, kid.Interestingly (synchronicity-ally?), *this* (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd-DJJfdyLg ) memorable song by "The Cyrkle" was popular at about the time that that "red rubber ball-equipped" MRI launcher was on the retail market...

[ghrocketman]

Both the Centuri and MPC 13mm long-case, thin-walled B motors were notoriously cato prone.
Centuri only produced the B4-xM for a short time due to this.
I had decent luck with the Centuri produced motors, but most of the MPCs were "kaboomers".
Those were bad enough that I just cracked all of my supply with a hammer and used them up as firecrackers.

[blackshire]

Both the Centuri and MPC 13mm long-case, thin-walled B motors were notoriously cato prone.
Centuri only produced the B4-xM for a short time due to this.
I had decent luck with the Centuri produced motors, but most of the MPCs were "kaboomers".
Those were bad enough that I just cracked all of my supply with a hammer and used them up as firecrackers.From what I've read elsewhere here on YORF (I have no direct experience), the long-case Centuri 13 mm mini motors *were* flawed, and frequently suffered casing burn-throughs, but the MPC Minijets were different. They were reliable as made, but became virtually guaranteed "bangers" after most of them (and some 18 mm MPC motors, too, that Myke Bergenske got from MPC, I think) were stored for long periods in a number of 18-wheeler trailers on a large lot, where they inevitably underwent thermal cycling with the passage of the days and seasons, which caused separated and/or cracked propellant grains. After that, it would have been a wonder if *any* of those motors fired normally, instead of CATO-ing.

[Joe Wooten]

Both the Centuri and MPC 13mm long-case, thin-walled B motors were notoriously cato prone.
Centuri only produced the B4-xM for a short time due to this.
I had decent luck with the Centuri produced motors, but most of the MPCs were "kaboomers".
Those were bad enough that I just cracked all of my supply with a hammer and used them up as firecrackers.

I still have a bunch of Centuri B4 motors. I have not had any cato, but I did trash two star trooper rockets when the ejection charge did not go off. Both shattered on the asphalt parking lot. The last one I used was 4 years ago. I need to build another one for these and use up the ones I still have left.

I bought them over 30 years ago when I discovered a small stash in the Trost Hobby warehouse in Chicago. I grabbed all the B4, A4, and 1/2 A4 's they had. The A engines were all 1.75" long and had a spacer in the box to allow their use on a model built for the B4's.

[Chas Russell]

AVI Gold Series motors were mentioned earlier. The bottom 4 ammo boxes, out of 16, contain historical motors. I pulled these out while looking for something else.

Top to Bottom:
F23.8-6.5
E11.8-7.50
E11.8-4.25 (Flown)
D6.1-3.25
D6.1-6.75

Bottom Row:
1/4A1.7-4.00 (2)
1/2A1.7-2.50 (2)
1/2A1.5-3

Some of the markings are small and faded. There aren't any catalog references on
ninfinger.org. I probably have the NAR magazines that they were advertised in, but not a search to be made tonight. The Gold Series were supposed to be very "precise" competition motors for thrust, impulse, and delay. Buyer beware. The ones I that I flew worked well. The E11.8-4.25 that was flown was used in an Estes Maxi-Brute Honest John modified with an FSI 27mm motor mount. It was a great flight.

I think that the advertised "Delta V" motors were never released. I had never seen one in the wild.

Chas

[stefanj]

I have, or had (might have sold them) the promo sheets for AVI's Gold motor line. I thought they were in Ye Olde Rockets.

You can see them among the docs below.

[blackshire]

I still have a bunch of Centuri B4 motors. I have not had any cato, but I did trash two star trooper rockets when the ejection charge did not go off. Both shattered on the asphalt parking lot. The last one I used was 4 years ago. I need to build another one for these and use up the ones I still have left.Ugh--what an ignominious end! If you're going to risk another Star Trooper model and you have any Centuri ones, please use an Estes Star Trooper (perhaps with an Estes Gnome plastic 4:1 ogive nose), because that kit and nose cone are all in production, unlike the Centuri ones!

I always hate losing rockets, but a CATO on the pad, or a "drift-away" (or simple visual disappearance into the sky) loss, is at least less jarring. (In the latter two cases, at least there is a chance that someone else might find the [quite possibly] undamaged model and "adopt" it as his or her own.) This famously happened in India (as is covered in this https://rcbookcase.com/details.php?publication_id=2575 [January 1971] issue of "American Aircraft Modeler"), in the article about an R/C Luton Minor model, and:

In the late 1940s or early 1950s, a British fellow in India had built a F/F (Free-Flight) Luton Minor model, which hooked a gigantic thermal (after taking off from a polo field) and disappeared. Not long afterward, his model appeared in a regional newspaper, held by a proud RAF (I think) officer at a base many miles away (he'd bought the model for a few rupees from a local who had found it in a field, and transported it by bullock cart to the base), who was quoted in the article speaking as if *he* had built the model! :-)I bought them over 30 years ago when I discovered a small stash in the Trost Hobby warehouse in Chicago. I grabbed all the B4, A4, and 1/2 A4 's they had. The A engines were all 1.75" long and had a spacer in the box to allow their use on a model built for the B4's.They sound like the currently-made Sky (the Red Chinese brand) 13 mm mini motors. In a picture of them I saw a few years ago, they appeared to have paper cases as thick as those of Estes' mini motors. The Sky 13 mini motors were different lengths (if memory serves, they came in three different case lengths, with the highest-impulse ones [high B] being the longest) I'm sure the lower-impulse Sky mini motors also come with spacer tubes. (If a Taiwanese company produced similar motors [perhaps paper-cased composites, like the German Klima motors: https://www.modelrockets.co.uk/shop/motors-consumables/klima-model-rocket-motors-c-28_151.html - or maybe Klima would make them... ], I'd gladly buy them--those would be good "model aircraft parts" to mail order...)

[blackshire]

AVI Gold Series motors were mentioned earlier. The bottom 4 ammo boxes, out of 16, contain historical motors. I pulled these out while looking for something else.

Top to Bottom:
F23.8-6.5
E11.8-7.50
E11.8-4.25 (Flown)
D6.1-3.25
D6.1-6.75

Bottom Row:
1/4A1.7-4.00 (2)
1/2A1.7-2.50 (2)
1/2A1.5-3

Some of the markings are small and faded. There aren't any catalog references on
ninfinger.org. I probably have the NAR magazines that they were advertised in, but not a search to be made tonight. The Gold Series were supposed to be very "precise" competition motors for thrust, impulse, and delay. Buyer beware. The ones I that I flew worked well. The E11.8-4.25 that was flown was used in an Estes Maxi-Brute Honest John modified with an FSI 27mm motor mount. It was a great flight.

I think that the advertised "Delta V" motors were never released. I had never seen one in the wild.

ChasThose look rather like tandem motors...

[ghrocketman]

I have some of their D6.25 and some of their 10mm 1/8A micro motors.

[ghrocketman]

Sounds like a decent death for a Centuri Star Trooper to me.
I used to refer to tiny birds such as those and and other rockets less than BT-50 sized as "fire and forget".
Got them back with amazing regularity despite overpowering.

[Chas Russell]

The AVI Gold motors were all made as boosters and the different delays were glued in. I guess the yellow paint was to ensure the ejection end of the delay was forward.

Carl McLawhorn had intended to do the same sort of scheme for the motors that SEMROC was developing. I am sure they would have been great of we had not lost him.

Chas

[Ltvscout]

I have, or had (might have sold them) the promo sheets for AVI's Gold motor line. I thought they were in Ye Olde Rockets.

You can see them among the docs below.
Hi Stefan,

Yes, I do have them. Thanks! Looks like they got posted back in 2006. It's on Ye Olde Rocket Plans under Rocketry Publications.

https://www.oldrocketplans.com/pubs/AVI/motors/avi_motors.htm

Click on the thrust curve pic to get a PDF of all the sheets.

[blackshire]

Hi Stefan,

Yes, I do have them. Thanks! Looks like they got posted back in 2006. It's on Ye Olde Rocket Plans under Rocketry Publications.

https://www.oldrocketplans.com/pubs/AVI/motors/avi_motors.htm

Click on the thrust curve pic to get a PDF of all the sheets.Scott, could you post the MPC Astrobee D plans and patterns on "Ye Olde Rocket Plans'" MPC page (see: https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/mpc.htm )? All of us here know where they--and the additional, helpful scale data--are here on YORF, but a BAR or a younger model rocketeer, coming across that "Ye Olde Rocket Plans" page, wouldn't see the MPC Astrobee D listed, and wouldn't necessarily think to look for it here on YORF. You could even include a note or a pointer directing readers to the additional Astrobee D material that was posted *here* https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?p=249563 .

[Ltvscout]

Scott, could you post the MPC Astrobee D plans and patterns on "Ye Olde Rocket Plans'" MPC page (see: https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/mpc.htm )? All of us here know where they--and the additional, helpful scale data--are here on YORF, but a BAR or a younger model rocketeer, coming across that "Ye Olde Rocket Plans" page, wouldn't see the MPC Astrobee D listed, and wouldn't necessarily think to look for it here on YORF. You could even include a note or a pointer directing readers to the additional Astrobee D material that was posted *here* https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?p=249563 .
You'll note the Ye Olde Rocket Plans site hasn't been updated since 2011. That's when the computer I had everything on crashed, without a backup. That site is static now unfortunately which is why I post plans and such in the forum now.

[blackshire]

You'll note the Ye Olde Rocket Plans site hasn't been updated since 2011. That's when the computer I had everything on crashed, without a backup. That site is static now unfortunately which is why I post plans and such in the forum now.I didn't notice, or know that, until now.

[ghughes1138]

Did their motors have aluminized Mylar casing wraps/labels? I've heard that they fit completely (not at all loosely) in rockets and motor mounts, yet didn't "grab" because the wraps were slick.

Yes, for a while they rebranded their regular 18mm motors as "NAVU-18" and added the metalized wrapper. Photo attached. The black printing on the wrapper tended to fade or rub off easily. Some of them had colored smoke for the time delays. This was around the same time as they announced the DeltaVee series of composites

The other motors are also AVI. The ones with orange printing are from about the same time as the Gold Series motors. The others are later, I think, and have very nondescript labeling (does not even mention AVI). When was flying in Australia (70s) I imported a LOT of AVI engines.

gary

[Earl]

Yes, for a while they rebranded their regular 18mm motors as "NAVU-18" and added the metalized wrapper. Photo attached. The black printing on the wrapper tended to fade or rub off easily. Some of them had colored smoke for the time delays. This was around the same time as they announced the DeltaVee series of composites

The other motors are also AVI. The ones with orange printing are from about the same time as the Gold Series motors. The others are later, I think, and have very nondescript labeling (does not even mention AVI). When was flying in Australia (70s) I imported a LOT of AVI engines.

gary

Thanks for the photo. I remember the ads on the back of the NAR mag that featured the NAVU-18 motors, but have never seen any and had no idea they were a metalized wrapper. Interesting.

Earl

[ghughes1138]

* At least one MPC kit had, on the instruction sheet's suggested motor list, what appear to be FSI motors! D4, D6, etc. Were these really FSI motors, or vaporware MPC motors?


Some of the earlier MPC kits (the ones that used the Redstone-like fiin unit IIRC) listed FSI motors with a caveat that a different motor mount was required. I don't recall if it was included in the kit or had to be purchased separately. I flew one with a 21mm engine mount. Good for demos... noisy and slow.

gary

[Earl]

Some of the earlier MPC kits (the ones that used the Redstone-like fiin unit IIRC) listed FSI motors with a caveat that a different motor mount was required. I don't recall if it was included in the kit or had to be purchased separately. I flew one with a 21mm engine mount. Good for demos... noisy and slow.

gary

Section from the Redstone Quasar instructions (see far right) which talks about an optional D mount. I think I have one of those mounts in the package in some of my (few) vintage MPC parts.

Earl

[ghrocketman]

AVI advertised at one point that their Delta-Vee composite F motors were competition certified and used in competition.
Sounds like they were at least around for a short time and equivalent to the old Enerjet F67.

[stefanj]

Fascinating new stuff!

* * *

I recall seeing pictures of the new motor pattern in AVI catalogs, but didn't realize it was a metallic wrap. I guess I had enough motors that I didn't need to buy new ones!

I think I had a few AVI motors with the middle pattern in Gary's photo. I seem to recall that packaging for later AVI motors was a plastic bag.

* * *

I don't recall having an MPC instruction sheet that mentioned the optional D-mount. As noted I intuited that FSI were being recommended, but couldn't figure out *how.* I think I would have remembered that text.

I wonder what time period that mount was offered in? FSI started in '67 or '68, and was purchased by the Reese family in the early 70s.

[ghughes1138]

Ah, yes, the Redstone Quasar was the model I flew on 21mm engines. Thanks for posting that.

I dug through my archives for any MPC catalogs or data sheets (surprisingly little) and found a concertina-fold catalog that lists the "universal D mount". Based on the other products in it (Minijets, C9 motor, Titan and Vostok kits) I'd say it was about 1970.

gary

[blackshire]

Yes, for a while they rebranded their regular 18mm motors as "NAVU-18" and added the metalized wrapper. Photo attached. The black printing on the wrapper tended to fade or rub off easily. Some of them had colored smoke for the time delays. This was around the same time as they announced the DeltaVee series of composites

The other motors are also AVI. The ones with orange printing are from about the same time as the Gold Series motors. The others are later, I think, and have very nondescript labeling (does not even mention AVI). When was flying in Australia (70s) I imported a LOT of AVI engines.

garyAh...thank you! While I'm most interested in the reliability and cost of motors, how motors *look* isn't an insignificant factor--if two brands of motors are available in a hobby shop or other store, ceteris paribus ("with all other conditions remaining the same"), the less plain-looking ones will usually sell better. The foil wraps on the AVI motors are very smart-looking, and they may have helped keep the motors' outer surfaces cooler by reflecting the heat back inward after burnout (a helpful feature with minimum-diameter plastic fin units, such as the scale Tomahawk one used in several MPC and AVI kits). The orange-printed motors are attractive as well. Also:

Various colors of delay tracking smoke would be a nice feature and, like different paint colors on rockets, easier to see against different typical regional sky backgrounds. I once bought out a Fort Lauderdale, Florida hobby shop's entire stock of German-made MRC--Model Rectifier Corporation--18 mm motors (and a bunch of their "pre-Concept II" kits), and I discovered that they had yellow tracking smoke, which was much easier to see against a cloudless blue sky than the "natural bluish" delay tracking smoke. Bright "fluorescent-like" smoke colors (including those used in daylight fireworks devices) are also available.

[blackshire]

Yes, for a while they rebranded their regular 18mm motors as "NAVU-18" and added the metalized wrapper. Photo attached. The black printing on the wrapper tended to fade or rub off easily. Some of them had colored smoke for the time delays. This was around the same time as they announced the DeltaVee series of composites

The other motors are also AVI. The ones with orange printing are from about the same time as the Gold Series motors. The others are later, I think, and have very nondescript labeling (does not even mention AVI). When was flying in Australia (70s) I imported a LOT of AVI engines.

garyAre you still living in Oz? (Our family very nearly emigrated there in the early 1970s; I went there twice, and I've always wondered, "What if...?"). We need more scale data on Australian sounding rockets and on the test vehicles (Australian and British) that flew at Woomera. Not only do they have a fine museum, but even in the adjacent town of Woomera, one can find actual rockets on display on mid-intersection "islands" and mounted on walls in stores, bars, etc. Also:

I would love to travel there myself and photograph and "tape out" every rocket in sight (and maybe visit Townsville and Magnetic Island again; we had a house lot there), but having severe lymphedema (among other health problems), the pressure differential in the jetliners would leave me incapacitated with balloon-like swollen legs, and bleeding lymph all over the place (I very nearly died from a staph and pseudomonas infection that another lymphedema "flare"--as they're called--enabled). But if *you* could visit Woomera:

The locals, including at the Woomera museum, have let others do this (measure their rockets). Using a small, medical-type, plastic-cased, fiber dual-unit tape measure (like these: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=medical+tape+measure&_sacat=0 )
wouldn't risk scratching the paint finishes on any of the vehicles). A dual-unit, metric/ASA (American Standards Association; the U.S. doesn't and never has used Imperial weights and measures [the U.S. and the UK "harmonized" the inch as 1" = 25.4 mm during World War II, after a shipment of Allison-made Spitfire engines didn't fit the planes' engine mounts]) tape measure of this type (most are, at least in the U.S.), with the smallest gradations being 1 mm and 1/16", respectively, is especially useful for this reason:

Many of the Australian and British vehicles were either built to inch-based specifications, or their development and/or operational lifetimes spanned the transition to metric. (Even today, as will be the case for many years to come, the British Skylark sounding rocket's reusable payload modules--some of which may have flown at Woomera--still fly into space aboard Brazilian VSB-30 sounding rockets [see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSB-30 - it was designed as a "drop-in" Skylark replacement], from Brazil's Alcântara Launch Center and Sweden's Esrange Space Center; Esrange flew many Skylarks, including the last one, and its 17.25"/438 mm diameter payload modules are dual-unit ones because the Skylark's lifetime started before--and spanned beyond--the metric transition.) I've noticed several familiar ratios that show up in inch-based dimensions of Australian sounding rockets (which enable one to infer "missing" dimensions not given in basic drawings), which one would never suspect if looking at only the given dimensions in millimeters or centimeters.

[ghughes1138]

I currently live in Massachusetts, so a quick trip to Woomera is not an option. Actually it is not a quick trip from anywhere. I had the opportunity to visit Woomera in the 70s (about 14 hours driving from Melbourne where I lived at the time) when it was still a closed town. Various clearances were required just to enter the town along with signing a release that basically said "if we shoot you, it's your fault".

The museum at the time was at the rangehead (more clearances and an escort), but we got to spend a day out on the range. We were not allowed to take photos if the line of sight included anything related to an operational weapon system, which was everything at the rangehead. They had recently had some bad press about the museum so they may have been overly touchy. We had more latitude at the old Redstone/Sparta pad and the ELDO launch complex at Lake Hart. The ELDO complex was being demolished and we found a set of spare parts for a Skylark (no motors) that somehow followed us home.

I understand that the town is open now and the museum is in the town. The rangehead is still restricted.

We took some model rockets with us, but we were not allowed to launch within the restricted zone. We drove out to a nearby salt lake bed with some locals and set up. A good place to launch Enerjet-30s in the middle of nowhere. Within a few minutes of the first launch a busload of tourists appeared and stopped to watch. Happens everywhere :-)

The Australian sounding rockets would have been built to Imperial measurements. They were initially based on surplus British rocket motors and some of the drawings I've seen tend to assume you know the dimensions of the motor(s).

[ghughes1138]

Ah...thank you! While I'm most interested in the reliability and cost of motors, how motors *look* isn't an insignificant factor--if two brands of motors are available in a hobby shop or other store, ceteris paribus ("with all other conditions remaining the same"), the less plain-looking ones will usually sell better. The foil wraps on the AVI motors are very smart-looking, and they may have helped keep the motors' outer surfaces cooler by reflecting the heat back inward after burnout (a helpful feature with minimum-diameter plastic fin units, such as the scale Tomahawk one used in several MPC and AVI kits). The orange-printed motors are attractive as well. Also:

Various colors of delay tracking smoke would be a nice feature and, like different paint colors on rockets, easier to see against different typical regional sky backgrounds. I once bought out a Fort Lauderdale, Florida hobby shop's entire stock of German-made MRC--Model Rectifier Corporation--18 mm motors (and a bunch of their "pre-Concept II" kits), and I discovered that they had yellow tracking smoke, which was much easier to see against a cloudless blue sky than the "natural bluish" delay tracking smoke. Bright "fluorescent-like" smoke colors (including those used in daylight fireworks devices) are also available.
We used to buy motors from AVI in bulk packs so in most cases I have not seen them in retail packaging. For a while B6 and C6 engines arrived in the NAVU wrappers. Smoke color was random, but not fluorescent-like.

[blackshire]

I currently live in Massachusetts, so a quick trip to Woomera is not an option. Actually it is not a quick trip from anywhere. I had the opportunity to visit Woomera in the 70s (about 14 hours driving from Melbourne where I lived at the time) when it was still a closed town. Various clearances were required just to enter the town along with signing a release that basically said "if we shoot you, it's your fault".

The museum at the time was at the rangehead (more clearances and an escort), but we got to spend a day out on the range. We were not allowed to take photos if the line of sight included anything related to an operational weapon system, which was everything at the rangehead. They had recently had some bad press about the museum so they may have been overly touchy. We had more latitude at the old Redstone/Sparta pad and the ELDO launch complex at Lake Hart. The ELDO complex was being demolished and we found a set of spare parts for a Skylark (no motors) that somehow followed us home.

I understand that the town is open now and the museum is in the town. The rangehead is still restricted.

We took some model rockets with us, but we were not allowed to launch within the restricted zone. We drove out to a nearby salt lake bed with some locals and set up. A good place to launch Enerjet-30s in the middle of nowhere. Within a few minutes of the first launch a busload of tourists appeared and stopped to watch. Happens everywhere :-)

The Australian sounding rockets would have been built to Imperial measurements. They were initially based on surplus British rocket motors and some of the drawings I've seen tend to assume you know the dimensions of the motor(s).Ah--yes, we're about equally far away from Woomera now. They used surplus British 5" diameter LAP (Light Alloy [case], Plastic [PVC-based solid propellant]), Mayfly, Gosling, Demon, and Australian-made Dorado, Vela, Musca, Lupus, and other motors powered the WRE's--Weapons Research Establishment's--sounding rockes. Also:

During its (more) active years, Ian Southall (whose book "Woomera" came out in 1962 https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&sortby=93&an=Southall&tn=Woomera&kn= , and whose book "Rockets in the Desert: The Story of Woomera" was published in 1964: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&sortby=93&an=Southall&tn=Rockets+in+the+Desert&kn= ), was regarded with great suspicion by the average (Woomeran?), and with even more by the police/security chief (who didn't enjoy--and was open out it--having to be Ian Southall's "handler" during his stays in town, and visits to the rangehead). But everyone there--who knew about them--appreciated his books about the work of Woomera, after they came out; he told the story of their work, their daily lives, and their hardships living there, and:

Here (see: https://www.oldrocketforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40105 ) is a paper by Kerrie Dougherty about the Australian sounding rockets, which I posted on the Australian Rocketry Forum--along with other scale data--a few years ago (see: https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?t=4890 ). Plus:

Had you told those tourists the Enerjet-30 powered models were new, secret devices, they would likely have believed it. :-) Interestingly, Ian Southall also got a Skylark souvenir, a twice-flown solid metal nose tip that doubled as the radiator of the antenna (the rest of the rocket, or at least the rest of the conical nose, served as the RF ground); he included a photograph of his well-traveled new paperweight in "Rockets in the Desert: The Story of Woomera." Today--as visiting members of the Australian Rocketry Forum https://forum.ausrocketry.com/ have posted--the museum again welcomes visitors, and the locals don't bristle at visiting space modelers photographing and "taping out" the sounding rockets scattered indoors and outdoors, around town (and you're right--Woomera is a multi-hour bus ride from any other abodes of modern, civilized life!).