Centuri Motors

[AKPilot]

On another forum, a few months ago, I mentioned that an elderly gentlemen stopped by my house after seeing one of our club's flyers.

He dropped off a number of old Centuri/Eses products from the '60s. Can someone tell me what type of value these old Centuri motors have?

I have the following:

B14-6
C6-0 (x3)
C6-5 (x2)
C6-7 (x4)

[STRMan]

They are absolutely worthless, especially the B-14. If you send them to me, I would be happy to dispose of them for you. ;)

[Vanel]

They are absolutely worthless, especially the B-14. If you send them to me, I would be happy to dispose of them for you. ;)

LOL! :D

[shockwaveriderz]

Akpilot:

I would make a swag that these are ALL Estes manufactured and Centuri Relabled motors.


The oldest the Centuri B14 can be is 39 years old as 1969 was the 1st year Centuri sold the relabeled Estes B14.

Centuri stopped selling Estes relabled B14 in 1981. So this B14 is 27-39 years old.

Centuri also started selling Estes relabled C6 motors in 1969.

All of this information came from Doug Sam's fine Centuri-Estes Model Rocket Linage
Charts.

IF you have the time I would love to see a hi resolution phot of the B14 core next to a small ruler..... also could you measure on the inside as to how much distance their is betwen the end of the propellant grain and the end of the casing?


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[tbzep]

Hey, Terry. Is there any history on these green motors?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/DSC_0006-2.jpg

[shockwaveriderz]

Hey, Terry. Is there any history on these green motors?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/DSC_0006-2.jpg

I don't personally know anything about them. maybe somebody else does?

terry dean
nar 16158

[Gus]

Hey, Terry. Is there any history on these green motors?
I believe those were from the ill-fated "St. Patricks Day Line" launched shortly after Damon bought the company. Not only was there considerable confusion on the part of Damon regarding how St. Patricks Day is generally celebrated, but the manufacture date on the motor also suggests a bit of confusion as to when the holiday usually occurs.

Damon eventually depleted the green motor inventory with the marginally more successful "Earth Day" and "Incredible Hulk" promotions. :o

[tbzep]

I believe those were from the ill-fated "St. Patricks Day Line" launched shortly after Damon bought the company. Not only was there considerable confusion on the part of Damon regarding how St. Patricks Day is generally celebrated, but the manufacture date on the motor also suggests a bit of confusion as to when the holiday usually occurs.

Damon eventually depleted the green motor inventory with the marginally more successful "Earth Day" and "Incredible Hulk" promotions. :o

Hmmm. I think I'd much rather have the Incredible Hulk motor. :D

[Royatl]

Hey, Terry. Is there any history on these green motors?




This is a bit of a foggy memory, but I remember Damon was experimenting with using the casings instead of the ink to color code the motors (green for single stage, purple/upper, red/boosters) for the expanding hobby store market. At least I remember only seeing these colored casings in a particular hobby store in Athens.

Who knows? maybe their casing supplier was just short handed on regular kraft paper and sent them these instead. I have a couple of Estes mini booster motors made in spiral wound glassine covered casings, and I have a whole bag of green casing Centuri mini-B motors.

[shockwaveriderz]

roy: and the pcitures are ......?

terry dean
nar 16158

[AKPilot]

Yea Roy, do you have any pictures to upload?


As for me, I can post some but I'm in the middle of some other things (mainly my wife has to offload her 100+ pictures off of the digital).

[Rocket Doctor]

This is a bit of a foggy memory, but I remember Damon was experimenting with using the casings instead of the ink to color code the motors (green for single stage, purple/upper, red/boosters) for the expanding hobby store market. At least I remember only seeing these colored casings in a particular hobby store in Athens.

Who knows? maybe their casing supplier was just short handed on regular kraft paper and sent them these instead. I have a couple of Estes mini booster motors made in spiral wound glassine covered casings, and I have a whole bag of green casing Centuri mini-B motors.

I inquired with two very reliable sources and here is what the answer is to the green motors.

The casing supplier ran out of paper and couldn't get any in time to meet the Estes demands. They did have stock of blue and green paper that had been used for the engine shipping tubes ( I believe that was the Northeatern Paper Tube Company?), so, in order to keep up with customer demands, that was what was used for the engine casings. Same material, but colored.

[SEL]

I inquired with two very reliable sources and here is what the answer is to the green motors.

The casing supplier ran out of paper and couldn't get any in time to meet the Estes demands. They did have stock of blue and green paper that had been used for the engine shipping tubes ( I believe that was the Northeatern Paper Tube Company?), so, in order to keep up with customer demands, that was what was used for the engine casings. Same material, but colored.

That was the reason I had heard as well back in the late 80's or so. A few blue cased Etes motors showed up on a postal auction (possibly one of Rich Jungclas') and I had asked the seller what he knew about them
S.

[Rocket Doctor]

That was the reason I had heard as well back in the late 80's or so. A few blue cased Etes motors showed up on a postal auction (possibly one of Rich Jungclas') and I had asked the seller what he knew about them
S.

I have a few of the colored casings as well I guess you could call the green ones the "Moldy Oldies" Oh, that's the "Golden Oldies.....Sorry!!!!

[tbzep]

Thanks for the info. :cool:

[Royatl]

Yea Roy, do you have any pictures to upload?


As for me, I can post some but I'm in the middle of some other things (mainly my wife has to offload her 100+ pictures off of the digital).


Well, here's a teaser shot:

http://www.roygreen.com/images/motors.jpg

lessee... there's a pack of MPC B3-3 motors, a pack of Canaroc B18-5 motors (plastic case and KP/polyurethane(??) fuel), Garoq's old Pro-Jet motors(F45 and E20), the afore-mentioned green Centuri mini-motors, the spiral wound A3-0 (can't really tell much about it from this distance though), a MPC B4-5 mini motor, an early D11-9, a later B.8-4 motor (.5" id, but still has the trumpet bell shaped nozzle), a recent German C6-5, a Shorty 1/2a booster, a box of A-4 Estes-made Rock-A-Chutes, an infamous FSI D18, an early D12, a D13 booster, a Cox A6 motor, an old A.8-3 motor, a Centuri 1/2a6-4 motor (the last two have a 0.41 i.d), and hiding is a German-made MRC C6-5 from about 20 years ago.

[dwmzmm]

Well, here's a teaser shot:

http://www.roygreen.com/images/motors.jpg

lessee... there's a pack of MPC B3-3 motors, a pack of Canaroc B18-5 motors (plastic case and KP/polyurethane(??) fuel), Garoq's old Pro-Jet motors(F45 and E20), the afore-mentioned green Centuri mini-motors, the spiral wound A3-0 (can't really tell much about it from this distance though), a MPC B4-5 mini motor, an early D11-9, a later B.8-4 motor (.5" id, but still has the trumpet bell shaped nozzle), a recent German C6-5, a Shorty 1/2a booster, a box of A-4 Estes-made Rock-A-Chutes, an infamous FSI D18, an early D12, a D13 booster, a Cox A6 motor, an old A.8-3 motor, a Centuri 1/2a6-4 motor (the last two have a 0.41 i.d), and hiding is a German-made MRC C6-5 from about 20 years ago.

You didn't even mention the Composite Dynamics Pro-Jets! I have a handfull of the Pro-Jet
E's and F's in my collection.... :D

[Royatl]

You didn't even mention the Composite Dynamics Pro-Jets! I have a handfull of the Pro-Jet
E's and F's in my collection.... :D

yea I did... CompDyn was Garoq's (Gary Rosenfield) previous gig.

[Initiator001]

Estes was not the only company to have green casing 18mm motors. :)

Bob

[dwmzmm]

yea I did... CompDyn was Garoq's (Gary Rosenfield) previous gig.

Oops! My bad.....

[Rocket Doctor]

Estes was not the only company to have green casing 18mm motors. :)

Bob

Bob
These were probably made by estes using the same Shamrock paper?
Ken

[Bazookadale]

Bob
These were probably made by estes using the same Shamrock paper?
Ken

I have some green Centuri motors dated '73 that also have the gray nozzle clay with graphite, I believe these were made by centuri

[ghrocketman]

I have had/flown several Estes & Centuri 18mm "green" paper motors in the past.
I actually have had MORE 13mm Centuri "long" mini-motors in A4-xM and B4-xM varieties in green than any of the 18mm stuff.
Seem to remember flying some "blue" 13mm Centuri Mini-Motors too, but may be wrong on that one.
Unfortunately I have no intact/unfired or fired "long" Centuri mini-motors any longer.

[Shreadvector]

Estes was not the only company to have green casing 18mm motors. :)

Bob

You won't like them if they get angry. ;)

[shockwaveriderz]

Well, here's a teaser shot:


lessee... there's a pack of MPC B3-3 motors, a pack of Canaroc B18-5 motors (plastic case and KP/polyurethane(??) fuel), Garoq's old Pro-Jet motors(F45 and E20), the afore-mentioned green Centuri mini-motors, the spiral wound A3-0 (can't really tell much about it from this distance though), a MPC B4-5 mini motor, an early D11-9, a later B.8-4 motor (.5" id, but still has the trumpet bell shaped nozzle), a recent German C6-5, a Shorty 1/2a booster, a box of A-4 Estes-made Rock-A-Chutes, an infamous FSI D18, an early D12, a D13 booster, a Cox A6 motor, an old A.8-3 motor, a Centuri 1/2a6-4 motor (the last two have a 0.41 i.d), and hiding is a German-made MRC C6-5 from about 20 years ago.

Roy: are those Rock-A-Chutes the Brown-manufactured ones? or the Estes Enterprise relabled ones? If they are Brown Manifacturing I would love to see a close up of the nozzle with a ruler. Also do they have simple cylinder shaped nozzles or more modern nozzles. Ca

That white German C6-5 is that a WECO?

thanks for the photo!


terry dean
nar 16158

[shockwaveriderz]

Estes was not the only company to have green casing 18mm motors. :)

Bob

BOb:

SHould I assume that the Centuri motor is a relabeled Estes motor?

terry dean
nar 16158

[Royatl]

Roy: are those Rock-A-Chutes the Brown-manufactured ones? or the Estes Enterprise relabled ones? If they are Brown Manifacturing I would love to see a close up of the nozzle with a ruler. Also do they have simple cylinder shaped nozzles or more modern nozzles. Ca

That white German C6-5 is that a WECO?

thanks for the photo!


terry dean
nar 16158

Estes / Weco

I think Dale Windsor may have a Brown MMI motor.

[Rocket Doctor]

One way of telling the difference between an Estes made and Centuri made motor is that the Centuri motors used graphite and the angle of the nozzle was different. This info from a very reliable source.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

I have had/flown several Estes & Centuri 18mm "green" paper motors in the past.
I actually have had MORE 13mm Centuri "long" mini-motors in A4-xM and B4-xM varieties in green than any of the 18mm stuff.
Seem to remember flying some "blue" 13mm Centuri Mini-Motors too, but may be wrong on that one.
Unfortunately I have no intact/unfired or fired "long" Centuri mini-motors any longer.

I still do, and all of the B4-xM's are green. ABout half of the A4's are too.

Joe W

[DWolman]

I was under the impression that Centuri never made motors, that they were always made by Estes: under a licensing agreement up until Damon acquired both Estes and Centuri, and then together as the combined company.

Is this not the case? I would be surprised to hear that Centuri started making motors after Estes had been making their motors for years and that they were a combined company.

I know that I have a couple of Estes green motors, and some of the long Centuri mini motors in both blue and green.

Thanks

[Royatl]

I was under the impression that Centuri never made motors, that they were always made by Estes: under a licensing agreement up until Damon acquired both Estes and Centuri, and then together as the combined company.

Is this not the case? I would be surprised to hear that Centuri started making motors after Estes had been making their motors for years and that they were a combined company.

I know that I have a couple of Estes green motors, and some of the long Centuri mini motors in both blue and green.

Thanks

according to the recent interviews with Vern and Lee, Estes made Centuri's motors until '69 or so, when Estes ran out of excess production capability, and Centuri got their plant working. In '71, Damon bought Centuri, and by '74 or '75 Centuri's motors were once again coming from Penrose.

[Rocket Doctor]

according to the recent interviews with Vern and Lee, Estes made Centuri's motors until '69 or so, when Estes ran out of excess production capability, and Centuri got their plant working. In '71, Damon bought Centuri, and by '74 or '75 Centuri's motors were once again coming from Penrose.

And the Centuri engine making machines were scrapped. Cox also made their own motors briefly as well

[Leo]

Picture post requested by RD:

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/forums/RD_Centuri_Engine.jpg

[stefanj]

Ah, the good old Mark VIIbis Ion Thruster. A good thing to have when dodging Astral Pirates out by Saturn's Rings.

[Rocket Doctor]

Picture post requested by RD:

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/forums/RD_Centuri_Engine.jpg

This is a Reaction Motors,Inc XLR-11 four chamber liquid fueled rocket engine. This engine was uned in the Bell X-1 program.

This would be a great engine for the rocket being sold on ebay, and it's not green either.

This engine is on display at the Wright-Patterson Museum in Ohio.(Air Force Materials Command)

Reaction Motors, Inc. also made the XLT-99, which powered the X-15 and other motors for other rockets such as the Bullpup and the Viking

[tbzep]

This is a Reaction Motors,Inc XLR-11 four chamber liquid fueled rocket engine. This engine was uned in the Bell X-1 program.

This would be a great engine for the rocket being sold on ebay, and it's not green either.

This engine is on display at the Wright-Patterson Museum in Ohio.(Air Force Materials Command)

Reaction Motors, Inc. also made the XLT-99, which powered the X-15 and other motors for other rockets such as the Bullpup and the Viking

Two XLR-11's were also in the first X-15 because the XLR-99 wasn't ready yet..

[Gus]

Two XLR-11's were also in the first X-15 because the XLR-99 wasn't ready yet..I bet that really made it XLR-8. :D

[Rocket Doctor]

I bet that really made it XLR-8. :D

The initial testing was done in Pompton Plains NJ, and then moved to Denville NJ and Lake denmark Nj (part of Picatinny Arsenal) the test stands for both the XLR-11 and XLR-99 are still in tact.

You can also find a new XLR-99 at Edwards AFB in CA and at the Teterboro Air Museum in NJ.

Their main office and assembly plant is still intact in denville NJ off of Ford Raod and has two plaues out front.

Reaction Motors was purchaed by Thiokol and became a division of them and eventually went out of business (RMI) in 1970.

The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum in washington has a few artifacts from RMI, including their first engine and first test stand.

[Rocket Doctor]

Can you imagine this in a Mosquito...........

[tbzep]

Can you imagine this in a Mosquito...........

I was thinking more along the lines of stuffing it in a little Burt Rutan plane about the size of his Vari-Eze and about as light. The X-1 was a tank in comparison. :D

[PaulK]

The initial testing was done in Pompton Plains NJ, and then moved to Denville NJ and Lake denmark Nj (part of Picatinny Arsenal) the test stands for both the XLR-11 and XLR-99 are still in tact.

You can also find a new XLR-99 at Edwards AFB in CA and at the Teterboro Air Museum in NJ.

Their main office and assembly plant is still intact in denville NJ off of Ford Raod and has two plaues out front.

Reaction Motors was purchaed by Thiokol and became a division of them and eventually went out of business (RMI) in 1970.

The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum in washington has a few artifacts from RMI, including their first engine and first test stand.Check out "At the edge of space", by Milt Thompson, from your local library. I recently finished it; fascinating. It has a good combination of technical info on the X-15 program and first-hand personal experience on many of the flights.

[lurker01]

I was under the impression that Centuri never made motors, that they were always made by Estes: under a licensing agreement up until Damon acquired both Estes and Centuri, and then together as the combined company.

Is this not the case? I would be surprised to hear that Centuri started making motors after Estes had been making their motors for years and that they were a combined company.

I know that I have a couple of Estes green motors, and some of the long Centuri mini motors in both blue and green.

Thanks

DWolman,

Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm. The location of the original Centuri motor facility is now the location of the Scottsdale Airport. And I must say, the ballon rides out of there are FANTASTIC!

Robert

[Rocket Doctor]

DWolman,

Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm. The location of the original Centuri motor facility is now the location of the Scottsdale Airport. And I must say, the ballon rides out of there are FANTASTIC!

Robert

From what I understand Centuri DID make their own 18mm motors and the machines ended up over at estes eventually after they merged, but, Estes never used the centuri machines.

And, I also heard that centuri did have a fire and that one employee was killed and shortly after that, they dumped their rocketry line.

[Doug Sams]

From what I understand Centuri DID make their own 18mm motors and the machines ended up over at estes eventually after they merged, but, Estes never used the centuri machines.Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm. What I've heard is somewhere in between, so underneath all this, we're getting close :)

My take is, besides making the Mini-Max and Enerjet, that Centuri made their own 13mm motors (up until the merger), and that they made only a very limited number of 18mm motors, and only for a short time. This time was likely somewhere in the interval between the introduction of the 13mm motors (circa 1972) and the subsequent acquisition by Damon (circa 1976).

Keep in mind that Centuri's early 13mm motor had a unique length - 2.5" - different than that of Estes and MPC. That doesn't preclude them being made elsewhere, but it indicates they were likely made away from Estes and MPC, and thus likely at Centuri.

As for 18's, I have seen Centuri B14's with the graphite nozzles, so I'm pretty sure they were Centuri made. But, even with the machines in place, I know getting a given motor set up and qualified for production is not trivial. There is lots of testing and starting over involved (lots of "oh sh@#s"). When you're running a business and you already have a qualified source (Estes), setting up your own production line is akin to fixin' what ain't broke. You got to pick your battles. So I suspect Centuri may have never produced more than a few types of 18mm motors before the merger.

Given that Estes ultimately killed the B14, I might guess that was impetus for Centuri to make them, but the motors weren't EOL'd for another three years after the merger. Still, if Estes had given them a heads-up, that could be the case.

And in that same vain, since Centuri introduced the C5 in 1976, I am inclined to conclude they built them at Centuri.

So, besides the 13mm motors, some B14's and the C5's were made at Centuri (IMO), but likely not many other 18mm motor types.

A little input from Vern and Lee could clear it all up :)

Doug


.

[shockwaveriderz]

What I've heard is somewhere in between, so underneath all this, we're getting close :)

My take is, besides making the Mini-Max and Enerjet, that Centuri made their own 13mm motors (up until the merger), and that they made only a very limited number of 18mm motors, and only for a short time. This time was likely somewhere in the interval between the introduction of the 13mm motors (circa 1972) and the subsequent acquisition by Damon (circa 1976).

Keep in mind that Centuri's early 13mm motor had a unique length - 2.5" - different than that of Estes and MPC. That doesn't preclude them being made elsewhere, but it indicates they were likely made away from Estes and MPC, and thus likely at Centuri.

As for 18's, I have seen Centuri B14's with the graphite nozzles, so I'm pretty sure they were Centuri made. But, even with the machines in place, I know getting a given motor set up and qualified for production is not trivial. There is lots of testing and starting over involved (lots of "oh sh@#s"). When you're running a business and you already have a qualified source (Estes), setting up your own production line is akin to fixin' what ain't broke. You got to pick your battles. So I suspect Centuri may have never produced more than a few types of 18mm motors before the merger.

Given that Estes ultimately killed the B14, I might guess that was impetus for Centuri to make them, but the motors weren't EOL'd for another three years after the merger. Still, if Estes had given them a heads-up, that could be the case.

And in that same vain, since Centuri introduced the C5 in 1976, I am inclined to conclude they built them at Centuri.

So, besides the 13mm motors, some B14's and the C5's were made at Centuri (IMO), but likely not many other 18mm motor types.

A little input from Vern and Lee could clear it all up :)

Doug


.

Doug, Damon purchased Centuri in 1971-72.


Centuri did for a short while make their own 13/18mm model rocket motors. But it was for only a relatively short time; approximately 1970-71-72approximately.

The C5's were only manufactured at Estes; BUT, they were the result of Larry Brown of Centuri wanting a motor that Estes didn't have. Of course. the C5 was later offered by Estes. The C5 and the later B8 both used a new core that was Formed and not Drilled like the previous Cored motors like the B14.

If you look at Doug's Fine Estes-Centuri motor lineage chart, the C5 was made by Estes for Centuri; later Estes used the C5 nozzle in the new Estes B8 motor that replaced the B14.

It is very possible that Centuri made their own B14 motors. Lee ihas said the new motor facility they built, make A,B and C motors. and BP Mini-Max.

And yes, Both Vern or Lee could pinpoint thie times better.
Most of the above info is in the 2 Centuri/Piester interviews and the Vern Estes interviews.


EDIT: I wnt back and reviewed the Model Rocketry magazines from 1971-2 (which also included the NAR's Model Rocketeer), and the MPC 13mm MiniJets were publicly demoed at the March 1971 MIt Convention while the estes 13mm _t motors were 1st demoed at the Philadephia HIAA Trade SHow in June 1971. There is absolutely no mention of Centuri being purchased by DAMON, not any information about the Centuri 13mm-M motors.

This doesn't mean that DAMON had not purchased in 1971, it just means there was no notification of it in MRm. I might add that when DAMAOn purchased estes, MRm did report it a few months later.

Finally, the MAY 1971 Model Rocketeer has a engine certfication lsting and ONLY the MPc Minijets were certfied at that time. MPC minijets and Estes _t mini's were used extensively and sold at NARAM-13, and I know this because I was there and purchased a boatload of both to take home with me.

Finally, the Centuri -M motors don't appear until the combined 1974-75 catalog. Lee Piester in his interview said he left Centuri in 1974. They also show up in the January 1975 Centuri Rocket times.

I can't tell if these were the orginal 2.25"(?) Centuri minimotors or the lateer 1.75" Centuri minimotos.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[ghrocketman]

C5's were never made by Centuri; they were always made by Estes even when Estes did not catalog them and were only in the Centuri Catalog. This engine came out several years after Estes and Centuri were both owned by Damon.

Centuri offered the C5-3S and C5-0S.
The "S" stood form "Super" C as they have a much higher initial thrust spike than a "regular" C6.

Estes never offered an "Estes Branded" C5-0, they only offered the C5-3. Why I do not know.
Interestingly, the first Estes "branded" C5-3 engines came out about 2-3 years after the Centuri ones and the first year of them they were actually labeled C5-3S...Estes changed them to simply C5-3 about the same time Centuri ceased to actually exist other than on paper as a holding company.

[Initiator001]

Doug, Damon purchased Centuri in 1971-72.




Damon purchased Centuri in 1970 (Source: Lee Piester).

Bob

[shockwaveriderz]

Damon purchased Centuri in 1970 (Source: Lee Piester).

Bob

Bob, in Matt Steel's interview with Lee Piester in the LAUNCH magazine, Lee makes 2 references to when he sold Centuri to DAMON.

"Ultimately we made the decision to sell Centuri to DAMON " This would LATE 1971, because he also says, "...While I was attending one of the NARAM"S in Houston, at the Manned Spacecraft Center, an agent of the DAMON Corporation approached me and asked if I would be interested in selling Centuri. Damon was the same company that a year and a half prior, had purchased Estes Industries...."

See pg 47-48 from the 9/10 3006 LAUNCH.

The NARAM he is talking about is NARAM-12 in August 1971. .

Jay Gomer aka Centuri Guy interviewed Lee in 2002 (published in Jan/Feb 2003 SR and wrote, " Piester sold Centuri Engineering Company to Boston-based Damon Corporation in 1972, just a year and a half after Damon purchased Estes. "

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Royatl]

well, the deal with Estes was in late 1969 (as stated in the 1970 catalog), so a year and a half would put it sometime in early 1971.

NARAM 12 was in August 1970, so early '71 would seem a reasonable date.

At NARAM 13, I heard the rumor (I assume they were rumors... we didn't stay at the main motel, so maybe there was better info there) that Damon now owned Centuri as well. Both companies had trailers on the field as range stores. Estes had a longer blue trailer while Centuri's was a smaller red one (looked a little more beat up as well) but both companies had a good bit of swag to give away, indicating an infusion of capital.

[dwmzmm]

well, the deal with Estes was in late 1969 (as stated in the 1970 catalog), so a year and a half would put it sometime in early 1971.

NARAM 12 was in August 1970, so early '71 would seem a reasonable date.

At NARAM 13, I heard the rumor (I assume they were rumors... we didn't stay at the main motel, so maybe there was better info there) that Damon now owned Centuri as well. Both companies had trailers on the field as range stores. Estes had a longer blue trailer while Centuri's was a smaller red one (looked a little more beat up as well) but both companies had a good bit of swag to give away, indicating an infusion of capital.

It'll be nice if both Estes and Centuri came back and brought these trailers you speak of
to future NARAM's (and NSL & NARCON's)....

[shockwaveriderz]

well, the deal with Estes was in late 1969 (as stated in the 1970 catalog), so a year and a half would put it sometime in early 1971.

NARAM 12 was in August 1970, so early '71 would seem a reasonable date.

At NARAM 13, I heard the rumor (I assume they were rumors... we didn't stay at the main motel, so maybe there was better info there) that Damon now owned Centuri as well. Both companies had trailers on the field as range stores. Estes had a longer blue trailer while Centuri's was a smaller red one (looked a little more beat up as well) but both companies had a good bit of swag to give away, indicating an infusion of capital.

Roy, I think you may be on to something. Obviously Lee's memory is faulty as far as the dates go. Thats to be expected.

AND it was MY Bad, for dating NARAM-12 to 1971 instead of 1970, considering the fact that I was at both NARAM-12/13. DOH. ( I'm watching NCAA basketball, so excuse me)

SO that makes sense: approached in 1970, made the decision in 1970, and then sold in early 1971 not 1972.

Thats makes perfect sense to me.


It wasn't until tha least few years that I became aware that DAMON had owned not only EStes but Centuri too. That was a shock to me, because back in the day, I don't remember ever reading about it anywhere. There's NO mention of it that I can find in MRm. Or is there...? back to the ball game.



terry dean
nar 16158

[Royatl]

It wasn't until tha least few years that I became aware that DAMON had owned not only EStes but Centuri too. That was a shock to me, because back in the day, I don't remember ever reading about it anywhere. There's NO mention of it that I can find in MRm. Or is there...? back to the ball game.



terry dean
nar 16158

I don't remember any mention at all in MRm. I had pretty much discounted what I'd heard at NARAM 13. Of course, MRm pretty much was running on fumes from NARAM 13 on anyway. I don't think Model Rocketeer mentioned it either for a number of years, until important addresses had to be changed to Penrose.

After tailing off from the hobby in late 1973, I started slowly getting back in by late 1977, partly due to the Star Wars craze. I got Estes catalogs and rejoined NAR, but for some reason I didn't get a Centuri catalog until 1979. I ordered some replacement plastic wraps for my Saturn V and was shocked when the package came from Penrose!

[Rocket Doctor]

The Damon /Estes deal was December 1969.

Speaking of Centuri and estes showing up at future NARAMS, they can't even show up without a trailer let alone with one.

And, with the 50th Anniversary, I don't expect to see them in Manassas either.

[Rocketflyer]

The Damon /Estes deal was December 1969.

Speaking of Centuri and estes showing up at future NARAMS, they can't even show up without a trailer let alone with one.

And, with the 50th Anniversary, I don't expect to see them in Manassas either.


What and have them break "tradition?" :p :rolleyes: Estes has no interest, and this is sad.

[Rocket Doctor]

What and have them break "tradition?" :p :rolleyes: Estes has no interest, and this is sad.

And I can attest to that believe me on this one!!!!

[shockwaveriderz]

The Damon /Estes deal was December 1969.

.


rockdoc:

the 11/69 issue of MRm. pg 21 states the sale was final on Sept 27,1969.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

It wasn't until tha least few years that I became aware that DAMON had owned not only EStes but Centuri too. That was a shock to me, because back in the day, I don't remember ever reading about it anywhere. There's NO mention of it that I can find in MRm. Or is there...? back to the ball game.

terry dean
nar 16158

You didn't read about it because it was not announced ! I first heard about it at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention in "72. Randy Gilbert, who had interned with Centuri the previous summer, said it was part of the contract that they would not use Damon in there name like Estes did.

30+ years later at Narcon, Lee Piester mentioned that they tried as different as they could from Estes to give the kids a different choice - I guess this was a continuation of that theme, they wanted the consumer to think they were still separate companies

[shockwaveriderz]

Dale, and the fact that it was never publicly announced to consumers (although I'm sure alot of the adults and other manufcaturers were aware) somehow bothers me. Having the consumer think they were separate and distinct from Estes to me is, well, being deceptive.


I aslo think it was deceptive for Estes and Centuri to not tell its customers, that for the first 7-8 years of Centuri's life, they were using Estes motors. For that matter, so were RDC motors for a time.

Now maybe, from 62-69 or thereabouts, the people in the know were aware of this, but I don't think the typical model rocketeer consumer of the day had any idea, that when they purchased Centuri motors, they were actually purchasing Estes motors that had been relabeld.

I think we can both agree, that consumers back then may have purchased Centuri motors cause they thought they were superior to the Estes ones ; or vice versa. And of cousre they were exactly the same thing!


This was obviously a "business" decision, but I disagree with it. It strikes me as false advertsing.

YMMV

terry dean
nar 16158

This of course is all water under the bridge now.

[Rocket Doctor]

You didn't read about it because it was not announced ! I first heard about it at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention in "72. Randy Gilbert, who had interned with Centuri the previous summer, said it was part of the contract that they would not use Damon in there name like Estes did.

30+ years later at Narcon, Lee Piester mentioned that they tried as different as they could from Estes to give the kids a different choice - I guess this was a continuation of that theme, they wanted the consumer to think they were still separate companies

Dale

So, you were at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention, small world, I was there as well and had attened several in the early 70's. Were you at the Shady Side Accademy as well?

RD

[Rocket Doctor]

rockdoc:

the 11/69 issue of MRm. pg 21 states the sale was final on Sept 27,1969.

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Terry

Somewhere in my searching for info on both companies it stated dec 1969, who knows, it seems that info is sketchy.

RD

[Bazookadale]

I aslo think it was deceptive for Estes and Centuri to not tell its customers, that for the first 7-8 years of Centuri's life, they were using Estes motors. For that matter, so were RDC motors for a time.

Now maybe, from 62-69 or thereabouts, the people in the know were aware of this, but I don't think the typical model rocketeer consumer of the day had any idea, that when they purchased Centuri motors, they were actually purchasing Estes motors that had been relabeld.

I think we can both agree, that consumers back then may have purchased Centuri motors cause they thought they were superior to the Estes ones ; or vice versa. And of cousre they were exactly the same thing!


This was obviously a "business" decision, but I disagree with it. It strikes me as false advertsing.

YMMV

terry dean
nar 16158


Remember that "Business Ethics" is an oxymoron! Having been in manufacturing (and for a time sales) for 35 years I can tell you this is common practice. For example there are dozens of brands of car batteries on the market, they are all made by 4 manufacturers. Exide used to make "Die Hard" batteries for Sears, they had so many quality problems they gave the contracts to Delco and Johnson Controls (JC was the original Die Hard manufacturer since the '60s). Exide responded with a smear campain against Sears that almost ruined the name.

Business is business - if they don't buy from us they will buy from someone else, so let's make a buck and who cares about what the public doesn't knowl

[Bazookadale]

Dale

So, you were at the Pittsburgh Spring Convention, small world, I was there as well and had attened several in the early 70's. Were you at the Shady Side Accademy as well?

RD
I was there in '70,'71 and '72. the first year we were in a flea bite motel and they bussed us to Shady Side for the launch. The next 2 years it was held a new Holiday Inn next to Westinghouse and a highway under construction - we launched from the overpass of that unopened highway! I roomed with Randy Gilbert one year, that's where I got the info on Centuri/Damon

[lurker01]

I was under the impression that Centuri never made motors, that they were always made by Estes: under a licensing agreement up until Damon acquired both Estes and Centuri, and then together as the combined company.

Is this not the case? I would be surprised to hear that Centuri started making motors after Estes had been making their motors for years and that they were a combined company.

I know that I have a couple of Estes green motors, and some of the long Centuri mini motors in both blue and green.

Thanks

DW,

IIRC from decades ago, the Centuri motors were advertised as more powerful than the Estes 13 mm offering. I think the concept was to place as full a "B" motor into a 13mm casing; so Centuri must have made these motors. Can someone, PLEASE, give Lee a call at his Hobby Bench store and ask him! I think he would get a kick out of us second guessing what really happened.

Vern Estes was quoted in one of his magazine interviews as having a laugh every time someone would state that Estes motor are better than Centuri motors or visa versa... both were made by Estes; well up to a point.

I would rather have quest bring back 13 mm "B" than a 18 mm "D" as most low power sport and contest flying is in the "A" - "C" range.

Robert

[Rocket Doctor]

I was there in '70,'71 and '72. the first year we were in a flea bite motel and they bussed us to Shady Side for the launch. The next 2 years it was held a new Holiday Inn next to Westinghouse and a highway under construction - we launched from the overpass of that unopened highway! I roomed with Randy Gilbert one year, that's where I got the info on Centuri/Damon

Dale

Then I was theere the same years as you. I remember the Shady Side Academy, and like you said, to the new Holiday Inn, and, we did indeed launch off the bridge overpass. I have photos of that.

Remember the snow strom we had the last day and they thought that the airport was going to be shut down?

They were the good old days.

Do you also remember the talk from the NASA guy who passed around pudding, and then he said that the water used was recycled urine (from a space flight) and everyone who tasted the pudding spit it out.

[Rocket Doctor]

What we need to do is track down the papeerwork on the sale, be it in Phoenix or elsewhere. having copies of the documents would settle a lot of questions.

Terry, you very good at facts and tracking information down, I bet if you searched in the right places, you will find this information.

[JRThro]

Jay Gomer aka Centuri Guy interviewed Lee in 2002 (published in Jan/Feb 2003 SR and wrote, " Piester sold Centuri Engineering Company to Boston-based Damon Corporation in 1972, just a year and a half after Damon purchased Estes. "
Terry, his name is Jay Goemmer, but it is indeed pronounced the same as Gomer.

[Doug Sams]

I think we can both agree, that consumers back then may have purchased Centuri motors cause they thought they were superior to the Estes ones ; or vice versa. And of cousre they were exactly the same thing!

This was obviously a "business" decision, but I disagree with it. It strikes me as false advertsing. Shockie,

If people bought one over the other because they thought one was better, that's OK. If Estes and/or Centuri knew people thought that (I'm sure they did), then that's OK, too. The only thing that would be bad (deceitful) would be Estes or Centuri saying that one of the identical motors was better when it wasn't.

I've pretty much been thru everything on ninfinger's site, and haven't seen any such claims. About the only comparative hype I recall was the Centuri Super C info touting 25% more alititude versus the "standard" Centuri C motor.

Doug


.

[Doug Sams]

IIRC from decades ago, the Centuri motors were advertised as more powerful than the Estes 13 mm offering. I think the concept was to place as full a "B" motor into a 13mm casing (snip)But you're saying that's OK, right? Comparing two different motors (B versus A) is legitimate (as opposed to comparing two identical but differently branded motors).

Doug


.

[Royatl]

Business is business - if they don't buy from us they will buy from someone else, so let's make a buck and who cares about what the public doesn't knowl

Golf balls, VCRs and DVDs, magnetic media, consumer chemicals (cleaners and such), paints, breads and cookies...

All are made by a tiny number of manufacturers, and marketed through dozens or hundreds of companies.

Even Carl says he attempted to buy motors from Estes in the 60's, but Vern turned him down as they were too stretched with Centuri's orders and were about to drop them too.

[shockwaveriderz]

Golf balls, VCRs and DVDs, magnetic media, consumer chemicals (cleaners and such), paints, breads and cookies...

All are made by a tiny number of manufacturers, and marketed through dozens or hundreds of companies.

Even Carl says he attempted to buy motors from Estes in the 60's, but Vern turned him down as they were too stretched with Centuri's orders and were about to drop them too.

I understand that companies can sell OEM products; which was what the Estes-Centuri relationship was.

Perhaps using the word deceit was too strong a word to use. Perhaps it was more or less an open secret .

As far as Semroc is concerned, Vern has stated in his interviews that by 1969, Estes Industries was reaching over capacity on Mabel. By this time even RDC had also started making their own rocket motors, because of time delays in getting Estes product. SEMROC couldn't get any Estes product because Estes had no extra product to give. By the time MABEL 2 had come online to increase overall capacity, Semroc was already making or working on their own in-house motors.

terry dean
nar 16158

[Rocket Doctor]

I think the bottom line is that most everyone ASSUMED that there was a difference. Bottom line, if you put a "B" motor in your rocket and it flew, who cared who made it as long as it performed as it was suppose to.

My father told me a story when he lived in California, he worked for a orange juice packing plant , one company making juice under 18 different brand labels.

In todays corporate world, who knows who makes what, especially with so many mergers and company "secrets".

I think we would all be amazed if we knew the backgrounds of many of our well known brands.

And in todays marketplace, you try to get as much business that you can, even if it's a rival.

[dwmzmm]

I think the bottom line is that most everyone ASSUMED that there was a difference. Bottom line, if you put a "B" motor in your rocket and it flew, who cared who made it as long as it performed as it was suppose to.

My father told me a story when he lived in California, he worked for a orange juice packing plant , one company making juice under 18 different brand labels.

In todays corporate world, who knows who makes what, especially with so many mergers and company "secrets".

I think we would all be amazed if we knew the backgrounds of many of our well known brands.

And in todays marketplace, you try to get as much business that you can, even if it's a rival.

I was in restaurant management for 20+ years (during the time I was AWOL from the hobby). I managed a Church's Chicken restaurant. After the company was bought out by
Al Copeland Enterprises (Popeyes) in 1989, ACE went somewhat belly up and was taken
over by another management firm that named itself American's Favorite Chicken (or
AFC). Many people (even employees) didn't know for a number of years that Church's
Chicken and Popeye's was really one company (our paychecks came from the same
HR facility).....

[Solomoriah]

On another forum, on a completely different topic, a poster stated:

We, collectively as a society need to get away from the profit altar .. that is if it makes money then its ok.

... and I agree. Profit is nice, but it's not a justification.

Sorry for the threadjack... this is a topic that I've been hearing a lot about lately.

[shockwaveriderz]

I thought I would post this little historical nugget here as its Centuri/Enerjet replated and I am trying to keep related materials in similar posts instead of starting new posts, for later searches by historians of the 22nd century.

from the NAR In Action Column by Ron Wright , Model Rocketeer, July 1974:

"While on the subject of manufacturers, it has been learned from a very reliable source that it is true that the ENERJET Division of Centuri Engineering has been disbanded. This was an economic measure as this division was never a profit making venture.

However, the rumor that Centuri's engine making production has been transferred to Estes is completely false".


We now know, that at some time in the 74-75 timeframe, Centuri's motor making production was shipped to Penrose. I am trying to pinpiont this date more accurately.

If anybody has any additional time date about this please post.


I've also found additional Centuri/Enerjet tiem point data that I will post at a later date.

terry dean

[Nuke Rocketeer]

On another forum, on a completely different topic, a poster stated:



... and I agree. Profit is nice, but it's not a justification.

Sorry for the threadjack... this is a topic that I've been hearing a lot about lately.

If there is no profit, then there will not be much choice. Profit, or at least the intention of making one, is at the basis of ALL successful economic systems. No profit means no incentive and everyone does the bare minimum and nothing ever gets done.

The old Soviet bloc was a perfect example of this.

[Solomoriah]

Profit as a motivator is fine. Profit motivates me to go to work. But when profit moves from motivation to religion, well, that's a problem. When you justify some bad act by saying "but we made a profit!" then we really have a problem.

When you go for the short-term profit instead of taking care of the customer, you will suffer in the long run. Many, many businesses are run this way. Many businesses fail this way.

But the head people? Why, they bail out before the business tanks, then get jobs doing the same frakking thing to another corporation.