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Initiator001
04-21-2008, 05:14 PM
It looks like Tower Hobbies has updated their RocketFun website with some new Estes kits/products for 2008.

Several look to be Shrox or Shrox inspired models (Lancer, Daedalus). Skill Level 3.

Another kit is the MIRV. Skill Level 3.

Two launch sets are the Solar Flare and Fracture (Derrived from the MIRV?).

A 'Mongoose' kit is listed but no details or picture. Skill level 1.

Very interesting...


Bob

Ltvscout
04-21-2008, 05:20 PM
It looks like Tower Hobbies has updated their RocketFun website with some new Estes kits/products for 2008.

Several look to be Shrox or Shrox inspired models (Lancer, Daedalus). Skill Level 3.

Another kit is the MIRV. Skill Level 3.

Two launch sets are the Solar Flare and Fracture (Derrived from the MIRV?).

A 'Mongoose' kit is listed but no details or picture. Skill level 1.

Very interesting...
Heh, you beat me to the post by a couple of minutes. I was just gathering up the links to put in my post I was going to make. I'll just add them here.

The only "bringback" I see so far is the Mongoose. Whoopity-do. :(

Here are links to pics of the new kits.

Lancer
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN1&P=G

Daedalus
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN2&P=G

MIRV
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN3&P=G

Solar Flare Launch Set
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN5&P=G

Fracture Launch Set
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN6&P=G

Ltvscout
04-21-2008, 05:23 PM
A couple others I found elsewhere on Tower's site are:

US Army Patriot RTF Starter Set
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTFU5&P=G

Astrobeam Launch Set
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTWC5&P=G

barone
04-21-2008, 06:13 PM
You gotta be kidding me? These can't be from Estes! Come on....April's Fools Day is just on the first....not the entire month!

Mark II
04-21-2008, 06:29 PM
The cat's out of the bag!
OK, so THAT explains all the growling and hissing that I'm hearing. :D

Which may die down to low purring after looking at those new kits. ;)

Several look to be Shrox or Shrox inspired models (Lancer, Daedalus). Skill Level 3.
I more or less agree with you on the Lancer, but it also reminds me of some of the Custom kits from the 1990's. The Daedalus, on the other hand, looks to me like a true-blue Estes-inspired (in a positive way :)) design. Kind of like the kit in the upper left hand corner here (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/catalogs/estes79/79est38.html).

Another kit is the MIRV. Skill Level 3.
Holy Stellar Dimensions! :eek: Is that an octagonal body tube? :D

Two launch sets are the Solar Flare and Fracture (Derrived from the MIRV?).
I like the Solar Flare - it looks to me like sort of a cross between the old Custom Satellite Drone and the Dynamic Carrier (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/nostalgia/94cust06.html). Again, a good thing. :)

Mark

Royatl
04-21-2008, 06:33 PM
I more or less agree with you on the Lancer, but it also reminds me of some of the Custom kits from the 1990's. The Daedalus, on the other hand, looks to me like a true-blue Estes-inspired (in a positive way :)) design. Kind of like the kit in the upper left hand corner here (http://www.ninfinger.org/%7Esven/rockets/catalogs/estes79/79est38.html).

Mark

I direct your attention to the ping pong ball on the Daedalus... a Daed giveaway!

Shrox was inspired by the '79 Estes rockets, but it is definitely a Shrox design.

MKP
04-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Barone's right! These are way too far out of the box for Estes! Where's the typical BT-56 RTF? There must be some mistake! :D
'Course I'll believe it when I see one at the hobby shop, or I see a build thread.

Rocket Doctor
04-21-2008, 06:43 PM
Barone's right! These are way too far out of the box for Estes! Where's the typical BT-56 RTF? There must be some mistake! :D
'Course I'll believe it when I see one at the hobby shop, or I see a build thread.

You are correct on the Shrox designs, there eventually should be about ten designs total.

As far as the name Solar Flare, that was a name I had for one of my desings that was passed by.

How exciting???

Green Dragon
04-21-2008, 06:45 PM
* stands with jae wide open, drooling *

now muttering over and over to self .. must be a dream... can't be estes... must be a dream .... time to wake up ....

~ AL

Mark II
04-21-2008, 07:08 PM
I direct your attention to the ping pong ball on the Daedalus... a Daed giveaway!
Whoops! You're right - I missed that detail! :o

Shrox was inspired by the '79 Estes rockets, ...
But it still looks a bit "Atlantis-ish" to me; anyone else see that? I'm not saying that it is anything like a close resemblance, only that, in my mind, it conjures up images of that classic kit.

... but it is definitely a Shrox design.
There is no question that Shrox's designs are truly unique and original, and that they are well-deserving of all of the accolades given to them.

Mark

Royatl
04-21-2008, 07:23 PM
Whoops! You're right - I missed that detail! :o


But it still looks a bit "Atlantis-ish" to me; anyone else see that? I'm not saying that it is anything like a close resemblance, only that, in my mind, it conjures up images of that classic kit.


There is no question that Shrox's designs are truly unique and original, and that they are well-deserving of all of the accolades given to them.

Mark

I'd call it more "Andromeda-ish", as were his designs for FlisKits (Alien8).

As to the Solar Flare, compare to Flis' Corona.

Mark II
04-21-2008, 07:37 PM
I'd call it more "Andromeda-ish", as were his designs for FlisKits (Alien8).

As to the Solar Flare, compare to Flis' Corona.
I say toe-may-toe, you say toe-mah-toe...:D

Mark

dwmzmm
04-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Are the MIRV and Fracture (what kind of name is that?!) kits single stage or multi-staged?

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-21-2008, 08:14 PM
Daedalus
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNTZN2&P=G


Daedalus? I knew her when she was named Icarus. :rolleyes:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s286/Wallyum/Picture026.jpg

Mark II
04-21-2008, 08:27 PM
Daedalus? I knew her when she was named Icarus. :rolleyes:
OK, Roy - let's give this new guy a clue: "Hey, Bill! It's obviously NOT the same rocket!!" :o :p :o

Mark

Royatl
04-21-2008, 08:35 PM
OK, Roy - let's give this new guy a clue: "Hey, Bill! It's obviously NOT the same rocket!!" :o :p :o

Mark

Of course it isn't. The Estes rocket is obviously the more experienced father!

:D

poke44
04-21-2008, 08:36 PM
The daedalus could be an upscale of the icarus

CPMcGraw
04-21-2008, 08:50 PM
Now these should grab some (much needed) attention! They well-deserve some "attaboys" and pats on the backs for even daring to introduce something genuinely craftsman-oriented like Daedalus and Lancer.

Someone obviously had some strong(arm) influence to get these kitted... :D

Would love to have been a fly on the wall when this lot of proposals was dropped on the table!

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-21-2008, 09:09 PM
The daedalus could be an upscale of the icarus

That would be cool, but the $21.99 price seems about right for a rocket the size of the Icarus.
Also, where would the upscale ping-pong ball come from. ;) :D

Tom Swift
04-21-2008, 09:18 PM
Are the MIRV and Fracture (what kind of name is that?!) kits single stage or multi-staged?

The MIRV & Fracture look like they have dual body tubes at that lower junction. A two stage cluster maybe?

With those names, maybe the sustainer splits into multiple parts in some way. It looks like it has 6 fins and 6 sides....

Some of the images look computer generated which is disappointing. Has nobody at Estes built one yet to take the photo?

They all look very intriguing though, with great potential. And that Lancer is pretty sweet!

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-21-2008, 09:37 PM
Does the Solar Flare look familiar to anyone but me? I swear Shrox kitted that design or provided the plan somewhere, but I can't find it.

EchoVictor
04-21-2008, 10:35 PM
As Bill said, Daedelus is indeed the Shrox Icarus

Lancer is the old Shrox Stiletto

Glad to see these coming back. More Shrox is always a good thing!

Later,
EV

EchoVictor
04-21-2008, 10:57 PM
Here's the reference......

http://web.archive.org/web/20030413064821/shrox.com/shrockets.html

Later,
EV

LeeR
04-21-2008, 11:09 PM
Also, where would the upscale ping-pong ball come from. ;) :D

China?

(Or is this a trick question? )

:)

tbzep
04-21-2008, 11:42 PM
My boy's gonna love the Lancer. He likes his Dynastar Snarky by Shrox, though the jigs to fit the intake scoop didn't work too well for him. I don't think either of us could pull off that Lancer paint scheme. From the Tower pic, it looks like they did panels the way they did on the 1350 Interceptor.

I like the Daedalus. I might get one with a HL coupon, but cloning the old Andromeda and USS Atlantis would have to come first.

grog
04-22-2008, 12:38 AM
As Bill said, Daedelus is indeed the Shrox Icarus

Lancer is the old Shrox Stiletto

Glad to see these coming back. More Shrox is always a good thing!

Later,
EV

Yes, the Lancer looks to be the old Shrox Stiletto. Here is my Shrox kit, still in the bag. (I can't remember how many years ago that I bought it.)

Mark II
04-22-2008, 01:23 AM
Yes, the Lancer looks to be the old Shrox Stiletto. Here is my Shrox kit, still in the bag. (I can't remember how many years ago that I bought it.)
Another new model demystified! Like others who have posted, I am quite pleasantly surprised that Estes has added some Shrox-designed rockets to its product line. RD, I guess it was worth the wait, eh?

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-22-2008, 05:49 AM
Now these should grab some (much needed) attention! They well-deserve some "attaboys" and pats on the backs for even daring to introduce something genuinely craftsman-oriented like Daedalus and Lancer.

Someone obviously had some strong(arm) influence to get these kitted... :D

Would love to have been a fly on the wall when this lot of proposals was dropped on the table!

Inspired by Shrox himself (2006).................it's nice being a fly sometimes!!!!!

Rocketflyer
04-22-2008, 06:49 AM
You gotta be kidding me? These can't be from Estes! Come on....April's Fools Day is just on the first....not the entire month!


LMBO :eek: :p :D

cas2047
04-22-2008, 08:16 AM
Not that I'm not grateful to Estes for coming out with a couple of new and interesting kits, namely the Lancer and Deadius, but I hope this isn't it for 2008.

For the 50th I was hoping for something big like a Sat V, Sat 1B, an Andromeda or maybe some new maxi-brute.

Who knows, maybe they will do some staggered releases throughout the year...

Rocket Doctor
04-22-2008, 08:31 AM
Not that I'm not grateful to Estes for coming out with a couple of new and interesting kits, namely the Lancer and Deadius, but I hope this isn't it for 2008.

For the 50th I was hoping for something big like a Sat V, Sat 1B, an Andromeda or maybe some new maxi-brute.

Who knows, maybe they will do some staggered releases throughout the year...

Probably not, I'm sure this is it. Just think how many kits DIDN'T come out lat year.

there was something planned for the 50th anniversary, but was cancelled !!!!!!

CPMcGraw
04-22-2008, 08:36 AM
Not that I'm not grateful to Estes for coming out with a couple of new and interesting kits, namely the Lancer and Deadius, but I hope this isn't it for 2008.

For the 50th I was hoping for something big like a Sat V, Sat 1B, an Andromeda or maybe some new maxi-brute.

Who knows, maybe they will do some staggered releases throughout the year...

You know, since next year represents the 40th anv. of the Apollo 11 landing (hard to imagine), Estes might be looking at a SatV re-release at least. They did for the 30th, and I think it was available on the 10th and 20th anvs. as well (need to check the catalogs to confirm that)..

K.M.Knox
04-22-2008, 08:39 AM
It's a real bummer. Now don't get me wrong, the new kits are a great change of pace and I am looking forward to getting them all, but a 50th anniversary of a model rocket company really needs some real rockets! At least a couple anyway, the Saturn, the Redstone, the Shuttle... I mean c'mon! Who cares that some of those great scale models were taken away relatively recently, bring them back for the party...

It is great to see some interesting designs though... But (I am not knowledgeable about Shrox when I say this) does this say anything about Estes in that they have to use someone else's designs from years ago instead of having their own stuff hit the skies?

Rocket Doctor
04-22-2008, 09:11 AM
It's a real bummer. Now don't get me wrong, the new kits are a great change of pace and I am looking forward to getting them all, but a 50th anniversary of a model rocket company really needs some real rockets! At least a couple anyway, the Saturn, the Redstone, the Shuttle... I mean c'mon! Who cares that some of those great scale models were taken away relatively recently, bring them back for the party...

It is great to see some interesting designs though... But (I am not knowledgeable about Shrox when I say this) does this say anything about Estes in that they have to use someone else's designs from years ago instead of having their own stuff hit the skies?

It's not the same Estes as it once was, like I said, there was a anniversary set planned for this year and it was cancelled the first week of April 2007.

One of the kit in that set was going to be the K-1 Scout, but, now we have the Semroc Golden scout and we are honoring Vern and Gleda estes, true model rocketry heros in my book.

The talk was to bring back the Saturn V and the saturn 1-B. I really don't think you will se that anytime soon, I may be wrong.

For the 40th anniversary, Estes had the Alpha in a red prsimatic body tube, that how they celebrated their 40th, I have two of them, if I can , I will have a photo posted.

When the catalog comes out (I here in May now) let's just see what they have to offer. I think that the Tower Hobby's tells it all.

And I don';t w ant to rehash the past, but, yesteerday was the one year unhappy anniversary of the Estes Forum being pulled down and the Rocket Doctor being booted.

The estes forum had over 600 member in just three months and was liked by all, great interaction. I tried to make changed for my fellow rocketeers, but, it wasn't seen that way by Estes.

So, now I devote my time to promoting the Golden Scout/Sky Of Gold celebration, at least I know that Vern and gleda appreciate it, that's what counts the most.

CPMcGraw
04-22-2008, 09:20 AM
...does this say anything about Estes in that they have to use someone else's designs from years ago instead of having their own stuff hit the skies?

It suggests someone at Estes recognizes the importance of introducing new craftsman-style kits to the catalog instead of re-hashing the same plastic fin can into another starter set...

As much as I and others here might wish for Estes to bring back their entire line (or nearly all - some were dogs), I would rather see a greater commitment to the hobbyists, in the form of challenging new kits and a better selection of motors. As long as there are plans and parts lists available for the old classics, I can order parts from SEMROC and BMS and have as full a collection as I might want.

EchoVictor
04-22-2008, 09:54 AM
I'll kind of echo that sentiment, Craig. I am very much more interested in NEW designs that challenge and inspire. I can "bring back" all I want with a clone. To quote one of my favorite song lyrics;

Here's the thing about living in the past,
If it was so good, then how come it didn't last?
If it helps you, I'll put it in a phrase,
"Those were the times, but these are the days".

Later,
EV

foose4string
04-22-2008, 10:21 AM
I can "bring back" all I want with a clone.

Later,
EV

Majority of them, you can. But there are quite a few, mainly some of the scale models, with molded or vacuum form parts that are very difficult to clone. Those are what I want to see brought back. There are soooo many good scale kits from the past that deserve to be
in the current line-up. V2(the Maxi would be great), Saturn 1b (1/100), Saturn V, Mercury Atlas, 1284 Shuttle, HoJo, LTV Scout, Pershing(which we know is unlikely), Titan Missiles, Jayhawk, Scud, Mercury Redstone(easy enough to clone/scratch though), the list goes on. Anything can be scratch built, but the kits make it so much easier.


The new offerings look great. Definitely better than the pre-colored BT56, plastic fin can, and battery operated nose cones we've come to expect from them. The LED rocket idea is ok, but I was getting worried when that thing hit the shelves this year.

K.M.Knox
04-22-2008, 11:36 AM
I completely agree with the cloning philosophy of the "old" stuff, especially with such great companies to get stuff from. The 'kits' Foose mentioned are the ones that to me say rocket, and cloning some of those is difficult (for me anyway).

One hope I hang on to is that there is still more to come, afterall the Interceptor #1250 & #1350 were not in the 2007 catalog. Could it be that there will be some surprises as the year progresses? At least a little hope anyway? I doubt it.

cas2047
04-22-2008, 02:45 PM
One hope I hang on to is that there is still more to come, afterall the Interceptor #1250 & #1350 were not in the 2007 catalog. Could it be that there will be some surprises as the year progresses? At least a little hope anyway?


Here's to hope! I'm with you on this one. Maybe, just maybe....


In the meantime I'm thankful for the great vendors and contributors out there who help to keep the hobby alive and growing.

Heck if it weren't for Rocket Doctor, Semroc and Vern and Glenda we'd have no meaningful and inclusive 50th celebration at all, at least none that I am aware of. The Sky Of Gold event allows anyone and everyone to take part in the event. You don't have to attend anything either, just build your Golden Scout, register it at Semroc, fly it in July, record your flight, and receive your certificate from Vern and Glenda who will mail them from Penrose. I just don't think it gets better than that.

CPMcGraw
04-22-2008, 05:22 PM
Majority of them, you can. But there are quite a few, mainly some of the scale models, with molded or vacuum form parts that are very difficult to clone. Those are what I want to see brought back. There are soooo many good scale kits from the past that deserve to be
in the current line-up. V2(the Maxi would be great), Saturn 1b (1/100), Saturn V, Mercury Atlas, 1284 Shuttle, HoJo, LTV Scout, Pershing(which we know is unlikely), Titan Missiles, Jayhawk, Scud, Mercury Redstone(easy enough to clone/scratch though), the list goes on. Anything can be scratch built, but the kits make it so much easier...

Let's see...

A new SatV could be whipped up using the 30th Aniv. edition, so Estes could eventually bring it back, like I said, for the 40th Aniv. of the landing...

A Sat1B, even in 1/100th scale, might not be anytime soon, given the SEMROC release...

The Mercury-Atlas and Mercury-Redstone are now possibilities, with the SEMROC release of the capsule. Maybe a revised LES tower could be whipped out to go with it, if it isn't already included. Use the Jupiter-C fin pattern (from the wood-fin version) for the Redstone, up-scaling as needed...

This would also make possible a Little Joe 1 in the same scale...

1284 Shuttle - not impossible, if you use a cardstock and balsa framework for the wings instead of vac-molded plastic. The nose cone could be done in balsa, and maybe the folks who picked up Moldin Oldies could create a master for it...

LTV Scout - already a possibility (I think) using SEMROC components. Might require one custom component, but the fin pattern was posted here on the forum a couple of years ago...

SCUD - already possible with cardstock transitions; Sandman might also be able to duplicate the pattern...

HoJo, Pershing, Jayhawk - Check with Sandman. Those are all large "Maxi Brute" designs (I think), and require larger-than-normal balsa blocks to turn from. Right up his alley...

Titan missiles -- if not possible using SEMROC components and cardstock transitions, try Sandman (if anyone could duplicate those patterns, other than SEMROC, it would be Sandman!)...

IOW, it's even more possible than we might realize to clone some of these kits, and not have to wait for Estes to "bring back" anything.

foose4string
04-22-2008, 08:22 PM
Craig, Sandman is highly skilled when it comes to turning or shaping balsa, but custom turned parts ain't cheap. At least, not the last time I checked. Add decal expense. Factor in shipping costs for everything. And resin parts are heavy, but I suppose they do ok for smaller things. Cardstock and balsa are good for most things. In fact, I really enjoy working with the stuff. Heck, the Zooch version of the shuttle is one of my favorites, and the reproduction of the 1/70th Saturn 1b from Semroc is nothing short of impressive. And, as I said earlier, anything can be scratch built, especially if time, money, and skill are not an issue. The level of detail on the Estes scale kits of the past were actually pretty good. Not always 100 percent accurate or competition worthy, but still nice to look at.

In regards to #1284 specifically, I emailed Paul Graf several months ago to see if he could vacuum form the Shuttle glider. In his reply, he stated he wasn't very active in rocketry anymore, but wouldn't mind taking on the project if someone was willing to sacrifice a master. Unfortunately, I don't have one, or else I'd "take one for the team".

Many of us have the skill or resources to semi-reproduce these kits, but at what cost? I'm not holding my breath for them to bring back anything, but I would be pleased to see some of these scale models in kit form again. In the meantime, I have plenty of unbuilt kits and enough parts to keep me busy for many, many months to come. Believe me, I'm not sweatin' over anything Estes does or doesn't do. ;)

CPMcGraw
04-22-2008, 09:58 PM
...custom turned parts ain't cheap...resin parts are heavy...Paul Graf...wouldn't mind taking on the project if someone was willing to sacrifice a master...I'm not holding my breath for them to bring back anything...I'm not sweatin' over anything Estes does or doesn't do. ;)

Lots of valid points, Foose, and I'm not trying to yank anyone's chain (I'm on a short enough leash myself, spending-wise :o ); just trying to "think out loud" about what we have in the way of alternatives to Estes' "Bring-Back" program. Granted, most of what I described would not equate to a true kit. They would only be "good enough until it happens" replacements.

The thought of replicating the Shuttle actually sounds like a good challenge. Building a large enough vacuum former is (relatively) simple, and if you can create a suitable master for the orbiter, the rest of the stack ought to be even easier. (Thinking out loud again... :eek: Dangerous!)

foose4string
04-22-2008, 10:24 PM
No offense taken Craig. Your " thinkin' out loud" is ok by me. You always have some good suggestions, and they are often ideas that I've overlooked or simply didn't know about. In this case, it might have actually inspired a few people to look past available kits and become resourceful. I'm all for that!

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-22-2008, 11:01 PM
HoJo, Pershing, Jayhawk - Check with Sandman. Those are all large "Maxi Brute" designs (I think), and require larger-than-normal balsa blocks to turn from. Right up his alley...

Now that you mention it, I've got a couple of Sandman's Pershing cones in BT-70 and BT-60 size, (I had to be different,) that I need to get back to work on. I've got the BT-70 version about 75% finished. The small triangular fins kinda threw me for a loop when I tried to recreate them. When I get home in the morning I'll head down to the shop to see how far I actually got. (I recently found some paper that I think will work nicely, especially when CA'd.) :cool:

CPMcGraw
04-22-2008, 11:07 PM
Speakin' of the Shuttle, here's an image (http://spaceyideas.com/images/shuttleboosters.jpg)I'd not seen before, but it is breath-taking!

Reminds me of tbzep's fancy photo work...

tbzep
04-23-2008, 07:15 AM
Speakin' of the Shuttle, here's an image (http://spaceyideas.com/images/shuttleboosters.jpg)I'd not seen before, but it is breath-taking!

Reminds me of tbzep's fancy photo work...

LOL! Except I don't Photoshop my stuff. ;)

Eagle3
04-23-2008, 07:52 AM
I'm sure a lot of the longing for classic kit re-releases is BAR driven. BARS come back to the hobby and want favorite kits and/or kits they didn't get for whatever reason from their youth.

I think a lot of it also comes from the fact that new kit designs going back to sometime in the 90's are not timeless classics. No disrespect to the designers, but when you look at the designs from the 70's and 80's and compare them to the last decade of designs? For me there is no comparison.

The acquisition of Shrox's line is very good sign as long as they can follow it up. My $0.02... keep the change.

ghrocketman
04-23-2008, 09:50 AM
I like the looks of that new Daedalus from Estes and it shows some real innovation compared to most of their stuff, but doubt I will purchase one.

The reason why I won't purchase one is due to where it is produced using cheap non-living U.S. wage standard labor.

I will continue to buy motors from them as I have no real choice in the SU BP arena....I fly more composite RMS24 than BP now anyways.

I will continue to confine my parts and kit purchases to manufacurers that support the US economy by choosing to support the "Made In USA" philosophy.

Some that follow this include Semroc, Flis Kits, Hawks Hobby, Q Modeling, Dr.Zooch, and Aero Tech to name a few.

I not only would like to see Estes bring out more decent kits, but equally important to me is producing them WHERE THEY BELONG, in the Good Old USA !

CPMcGraw
04-23-2008, 01:26 PM
LOL! Except I don't Photoshop my stuff. ;)

Ya know, it does look a bit too detailed to have been frame-grabbed from a NASA feed, now that you mention it...

The smoke trailings from the sep motors do have the appearance of airbrushed after-effects...

Still, a good hack job for whoever did it...

tbzep
04-23-2008, 02:35 PM
Ya know, it does look a bit too detailed to have been frame-grabbed from a NASA feed, now that you mention it...

The smoke trailings from the sep motors do have the appearance of airbrushed after-effects...

Still, a good hack job for whoever did it...

Chopping the SRB's in was good. The separation motor exhaust was poorly executed.

Here's why I think it's chopped.

There's no way to get anywhere near that close up of a shot at separation, even with the big tracking cameras. (Something like 40 miles or over 200,000 ft.) When they do onboard separation images, the sky is black from the high altitude.

Notice the nose of the orbiter has sunshine from the left, but neither booster does. Also, if you've seen real footage of the separation, the separation motors leave huge wispy cometlike tails much longer than the boosters, not just little dabs of photoshop smoke. The boosters should still show lots of flame and sparks at separation even though the level of thrust has dropped to almost nothing by that time...not just blobs of smoke.

IMHO, this is photoshopped from a couple of images taken right at liftoff. The orbiter is shot from its top (payload bay) side, and the boosters are from an image shot from the belly/ET side.

JRThro
04-23-2008, 02:51 PM
Chopping the SRB's in was good. The separation motor exhaust was poorly executed.

Here's why I think it's chopped.

There's no way to get anywhere near that close up of a shot at separation, even with the big tracking cameras. (Something like 40 miles or over 200,000 ft.) When they do onboard separation images, the sky is black from the high altitude.

Notice the nose of the orbiter has sunshine from the left, but neither booster does. Also, if you've seen real footage of the separation, the separation motors leave huge wispy cometlike tails much longer than the boosters, not just little dabs of photoshop smoke. The boosters should still show lots of flame and sparks at separation even though the level of thrust has dropped to almost nothing by that time...not just blobs of smoke.

IMHO, this is photoshopped from a couple of images taken right at liftoff. The orbiter is shot from its top (payload bay) side, and the boosters are from an image shot from the belly/ET side.
Plus, I'm pretty sure the boosters are copies of the same picture, with one of them flipped.

Royatl
04-23-2008, 03:36 PM
All of that, PLUS....

you can clearly see the artifacts of the cloning brush as they filled in and attempted to blend the background.

tbzep
04-23-2008, 03:51 PM
All of that, PLUS....

you can clearly see the artifacts of the cloning brush as they filled in and attempted to blend the background.

I can now that I'm home. Couldn't see much detail at all on the crappy little work monitor. :rolleyes:

Mark II
04-23-2008, 04:22 PM
I apologize for getting a little behind on the discussion - lots of comments flying back and forth between yesterday and today!

I'll kind of echo that sentiment, Craig. I am very much more interested in NEW designs that challenge and inspire. I can "bring back" all I want with a clone. To quote one of my favorite song lyrics;

Here's the thing about living in the past,
If it was so good, then how come it didn't last?
If it helps you, I'll put it in a phrase,
"Those were the times, but these are the days".

Later,
EV
I agree. But still, Estes Industries, historically the market leader, had an opportunity to be there (in an inspirational sense), to make a statement, to join in and be part of the 50th anniversary celebration of model rocketry, and to cultivate and improve its standing with the most enthusiastic, the most loyal and die-hard, and the most financially-committed segment of its customer base, and they simply backed away from it. Maybe that makes a statement, too. :(

Mark

tbzep
04-23-2008, 07:26 PM
I apologize for getting a little behind on the discussion - lots of comments flying back and forth between yesterday and today!


I agree. But still, Estes Industries, historically the market leader, had an opportunity to be there (in an inspirational sense), to make a statement, to join in and be part of the 50th anniversary celebration of model rocketry, and to cultivate and improve its standing with the most enthusiastic, the most loyal and die-hard, and the most financially-committed segment of its customer base, and they simply backed away from it. Maybe that makes a statement, too. :(

Mark

It's almost as if Tunick is too arrogant to acknowledge what Vern and Gleda accomplished and wants to distance "his" Estes-Cox from their Estes Industries.

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-23-2008, 07:41 PM
LOL! Except I don't Photoshop my stuff. ;)

I thought this, but I wasn't going to say it. I was looking for Batboy in the pilot's seat. :eek:

Carl@Semroc
04-23-2008, 08:13 PM
It's almost as if Tunick is too arrogant to acknowledge what Vern and Gleda accomplished and wants to distance "his" Estes-Cox from their Estes Industries. You must have read the interview!:D

Rocket Doctor
04-24-2008, 05:24 AM
You must have read the interview!:D

Their hurting for certain!!!!! Fill in the blanks.....

When you own a company and think that it started out as a kite company (Hi-Flyer) then something is wrong.

Back in 2006 when the subject of the 50th anniversary came up and that certain person failed to admit to the signifigance of being in business for 50 years and who started the comapny, is pathetic.

There was something planned and CANCELLED on April 6 , 2007. And the Forum CANCELLED on April 21,2007.

As you can see, Estes wasn't at NARCON, won't be at NSL and certainly won't be at NARAM 50. I tried my best to change that, I tell you and met with significant resistance.

Semroc and Fliskits is your better bet, at least they CARE about you , fellow rocketeers.

tbzep
04-24-2008, 07:27 AM
Speaking of Tunick...

Is there a small chance that the cordial conversation between Tunick and Kaplow could have been recorded via photograph or video for posterity? It's also been a long time since I've heard the story. I'd like to hear it again. :D

JRThro
04-24-2008, 07:58 AM
Speaking of Tunick...

Is there a small chance that the cordial conversation between Tunick and Kaplow could have been recorded via photograph or video for posterity? It's also been a long time since I've heard the story. I'd like to hear it again. :D
Just search RMR! It's there, probably more than once.

Mikus
04-24-2008, 10:28 AM
But still, Estes Industries, historically the market leader, had an opportunity to be there (in an inspirational sense), to make a statement, to join in and be part of the 50th anniversary celebration of model rocketry, and to cultivate and improve its standing with the most enthusiastic, the most loyal and die-hard, and the most financially-committed segment of its customer base, and they simply backed away from it. Maybe that makes a statement, too.

I'd say they made that particular statement the day they killed RD's forum. All this just backs it up.

And really, to not release the "2008" Catalog until the year is almost half over? Man that's unprofessional as all get out. It makes you wonder just what level of idgits are running the company if they think that's acceptable. Heh, if I were in charge heads would have rolled in the Marketing department for not being ready back in January.

Heck if they weren't our primary supplier of BP motors, would we really miss modern-day Estes? I'm thinking no. In fact I'd be just as happy giving my discretionary income to Semroc. And while that speaks volumes of Semroc, it's a sad statement about our historical market leader.

As to the new models, I'm not very impressed - at least nowhere near as much as when I learned the Interceptors were being reissued. Maybe I'll get lucky and be impressed by something announced in the 2nd half of the year. I'm not going to hold my breath tho. ;)

I missed the Shrox era I guess, what's the big deal about them? There's certainly nothing here that I want to rush out and buy. Nothing that would make me miss Estes at all.

:(

Arley Davis
04-24-2008, 04:26 PM
As to the Topic at hand the new rockets, The 2 rockets Daedalus and Lancer in my own opinion are defiantly Shorx Kits with different decals. If anybody remembers from last year after FlisKits came out with the Shorx Alien 8, he was asked what other Shorx kits would he be bringing out, and at that time we all were told that Shorx was in the process of working with Estes.

The Daedalus is a remake of the Icarus as A Fish Named Wallyum has clamed.

The Estes Lancer looks very much like the Stiletto.

I hope Estes keeps coming out with more of Shorx Kits, they sure beat what Estes has been bringing out in the last few years.

Personally hope to see the Shxsolarkron come out!

Mark II
04-24-2008, 06:16 PM
As to the Topic at hand the new rockets, The 2 rockets Daedalus and Lancer in my own opinion are defiantly Shorx Kits with different decals. If anybody remembers from last year after FlisKits came out with the Shorx Alien 8, he was asked what other Shorx kits would he be bringing out, and at that time we all were told that Shorx was in the process of working with Estes.

The Daedalus is a remake of the Icarus as A Fish Named Wallyum has clamed.

The Estes Lancer looks very much like the Stiletto.

I hope Estes keeps coming out with more of Shorx Kits, they sure beat what Estes has been bringing out in the last few years.

Personally hope to see the Shxsolarkron come out!
In light of all of the denunciations of the current Estes/Cox company that have been posted here (and which are certainly deserved, especially those that target its unusual approach to customer relations), including my own comments, I was almost starting to feel disappointed that Shrox decided to do business with them. But then I remembered that the executive management of any large company does not equal the entire company, and I am sure that the same is true for the company that is being discussed here. Arley's post has reminded me that this thread was started to talk about Estes' new kits, including the two (possibly three) that were designed by Shrox. As I recall, the consensus was that we were all glad to see them coming out. Estes' expected release of these new kits is a good thing, isn't it? Just like its bring backs last year of the Der Red Max, the Nova Payloader, and, of course, the Interceptor, and its release of the new upscaled Interceptor kit were good things. So I just want to float this idea: perhaps not everyone in the company and not everything that the company does is evil. Yes, I agree (and I have said so more than once) that certain decisions made by Estes/Cox deserve our eternal scorn; no question about that. But the leaked information about these new kits gives me the impression that there are most likely still many good people at the company, who want to do the right thing, and who can sometimes push management to go in that direction a little bit. (RD, is this true?)

There are a number of other kits in the Estes catalog the I do like, too, and I'm not afraid to say so. And, grab your seats, I am generally quite satisfied with the rocket engines that they produce. True, what they currently offer stops far short of covering all the bases in their range, but they do make engines in three diameters and in impulses ranging from 1/4A to E (and they also make first-class igniters for black powder and some pretty decent low power launch systems, too). In my experience, their engines are both safe and quite reliable, and I have never experienced a CATO or a shotgun ejection with any of them (although I am sure that I have just been lucky about that last item).

It might be useful to also remember that at least some of the trends in their product offerings that we routinely complain about actually started long before the arrival of the current ownership (but that fact certainly doesn't exonerate them, though). I remember being shocked (yes, shocked!) when Estes Industries introduced its first E2X kit, the Alpha III. A plastic nose cone? And a one piece plastic fin can? Blasphemy! (But now I consider the Alpha III to be a classic kit - hey, it originally had a "K" number, after all). That was back in 1971! I didn't know at the time that Estes had previously offered a one-piece plastic fin can and at least one resin nose cone in its first few catalogs. E2X kits and plastic components have been part of Estes' product line for a very long time now, as have RTF rockets. And Estes selling its kits via mass merchandisers? Anyone remember the Citation line? Estes dropping popular engines from its catalog? Remember Series II and Series III engines? As I said before, though, none of this gets Tunick and co. off the hook. And an ever-growing number of management decisions, such as shutting down the customer forum and disrespecting the company's roots and ignoring the 50th anniversary of model rocketry - well, those actions and others like them are just plain evil.

Mark

cas2047
04-24-2008, 08:16 PM
It's too bad the new Estes isn’t more in tune with the hobby, not just the dollars.

I know, I know, Estes is a company and they are in business to make money, etc., etc.. However as a kid growing up I remember Estes being a heck of a lot more in tune with the hobby and hobbyists than the new Estes is. The old Estes was Vern and Glenda Estes.

Rocket Doctor
04-24-2008, 08:21 PM
I tried to push and look where it got me......OUT !!!
If it doesn't come from the top, then, it's not correct, no matter what you say and do, beleive me on that one. When your employer put fear into you not to disagree, then, what do you do. I'm not that way.

I'm not bragging, but, I kpushed hard for changes in many topic areas, and, got shot down. From the length of shcokd cords, to bringing back more motors, new kits, bring back kits as well as attending national events such as NARCON, NSL and NARAM.

All I can say is , too little too late. Many good employees have left the company for many reasons, and some, not their own !!!

If I was running a comp9any, I would take all input and research it , and if feasable, act upon it, not give lip service.

This is the 50th anniversary of Estes-Cox, and, how will they be celebrating it??? There was something planned, but, nixed.

I'm so glad that we have honored Vern and gleda in this special way with the Golden Scout/Sky Of Gold, I know for a FACT, that they appreciate it. That's what counts.

A fellow rocketeer, who continues in the hobby after 50 years, that dedication to the hobby. Can that be said about the current regime.

The current management started in 1992, think about it, when did the drastic changes take kplace? RTF, mass merchandisers, non participation in national events, and it goes on and on.

But, for someone who is dedicated to the hobby for the past 44 years, and tries to see it return to it's roots and gets shot down, then waht. I tried, that's all I can say.

Mark II
04-24-2008, 09:16 PM
Well, what do I know? By speculating that there were probably a number of good employees there who had, on rare occasions, succeeded in moving management decisions a fraction of an inch, I must have been giving the company way too much credit.

But if the only things that Estes/Cox ever manufactures are ill will and pure, unadulterated evil, then what explains the release of the good stuff (the kits that we like)?

Mark

JRThro
04-25-2008, 09:20 AM
Well, what do I know? By speculating that there were probably a number of good employees there who had, on rare occasions, succeeded in moving management decisions a fraction of an inch, I must have been giving the company way too much credit.

But if the only things that Estes/Cox ever manufactures are ill will and pure, unadulterated evil, then what explains the release of the good stuff (the kits that we like)?

Mark
Hey. Present-day Estes came out with the X-Prize series of kits. They brought back the Interceptor and came out with the Interceptor E. They brought back the Der Red Max. They are bringing out some kits by Shrox. Etc.

They obviously manufacture things that even hardcore BARs like and enjoy building and flying.

If people want to do nothing but complain about the present-day Estes company, they're free to do so. I'm sure the company is absolutely nothing like the way it was back in the '60's, '70's, and '80's. But frankly, not much else is the way it used to be, and I think a lot of you guys are viewing the past through *deeply* rose-colored glasses.

I was never involved in model rocketry at all until 2004, so I don't know from personal experience how things used to be. I do know that an Estes Number 2 Sky Writer kit and an Estes Stars and Stripes launch set were the first things I bought for my sons and myself, and I was hooked. Here it is 2008 and I'm still hooked. If it weren't for the Estes of 2004, that never would have happened.

Estes is in business to make a profit. I daresay that Fliskits and Semroc are, too, and so are all of the other present-day model rocket companies. If the Estes company of today isn't the same Estes company that you all remember from 20 or 30 years ago, I'm sorry, but slamming the present-day Estes company at every opportunity does no one any good at all.

At this point in my rocketry career, I've bought and/or built kits from Estes, Quest, Custom, Rokitflite, Semroc, Red River Rocketry... and I think that's it so far. Fliskits is on my list; I just haven't gotten around to picking up one of Jim's kits yet.

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, and it's one reason I'm going to NARAM-50 this summer. I do enjoy learning about the history of model rocketry, and I hope to get to meet Vern and Gleda just like I was lucky enough to meet Lee and (I think) Piester at NARCON 2006 two years ago.

Model rocketry is still a *lot* of fun, guys! Let's keep that in mind, okay?
:) :D :) :D

Rocket Doctor
04-25-2008, 04:11 PM
Hey. Present-day Estes came out with the X-Prize series of kits. They brought back the Interceptor and came out with the Interceptor E. They brought back the Der Red Max. They are bringing out some kits by Shrox. Etc.

They obviously manufacture things that even hardcore BARs like and enjoy building and flying.

If people want to do nothing but complain about the present-day Estes company, they're free to do so. I'm sure the company is absolutely nothing like the way it was back in the '60's, '70's, and '80's. But frankly, not much else is the way it used to be, and I think a lot of you guys are viewing the past through *deeply* rose-colored glasses.

I was never involved in model rocketry at all until 2004, so I don't know from personal experience how things used to be. I do know that an Estes Number 2 Sky Writer kit and an Estes Stars and Stripes launch set were the first things I bought for my sons and myself, and I was hooked. Here it is 2008 and I'm still hooked. If it weren't for the Estes of 2004, that never would have happened.

Estes is in business to make a profit. I daresay that Fliskits and Semroc are, too, and so are all of the other present-day model rocket companies. If the Estes company of today isn't the same Estes company that you all remember from 20 or 30 years ago, I'm sorry, but slamming the present-day Estes company at every opportunity does no one any good at all.

At this point in my rocketry career, I've bought and/or built kits from Estes, Quest, Custom, Rokitflite, Semroc, Red River Rocketry... and I think that's it so far. Fliskits is on my list; I just haven't gotten around to picking up one of Jim's kits yet.

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, and it's one reason I'm going to NARAM-50 this summer. I do enjoy learning about the history of model rocketry, and I hope to get to meet Vern and Gleda just like I was lucky enough to meet Lee and (I think) Piester at NARCON 2006 two years ago.

Model rocketry is still a *lot* of fun, guys! Let's keep that in mind, okay?
:) :D :) :D

I can speak from experience on this topic. Since 1992, it has changed drastically, just think about it.

they do not attend any national events such as NARCON. NSL or NARAM.
When Star wars come out in 1999, knowone wanted these heavy plastic RTF's. As far as the X-Prize goes, they were not popular as well. A lot of time and effort went into these, I know, I was involved, but, sales were very poor.

The Forum went down in flames on April 21,2007, there were over 600 members and the forum was a great conduit between members and the company, now, a year later, whre is it.

Motors are another issue, we know that the B14 will not return, but, the B6-0 could have been packaged in three packs and lower power boosters could be made availabe, as well as other motors.

Shock cords colud be made longer, better contact with clubs .

But, when you bring this to the attention of the powers to be, and, they don't do anything about it, something is wrong.

I/m not knocking estes per se, but, i tried on the estes forum to make changes, and look what it got me.

Good choice with the Skywriter, one of my six designs, and, I had many others.

This is also the 50th anniversary of Estes as well, but, what are they doing for it?????

At least Semroc and Fliskits are run by rocketeers for rocketeers.

Arley Davis
04-25-2008, 05:36 PM
Will my fellow racketeers keep in mind, It’s a different world know than it was 30 or more years ago. Kids today want instant gratification. In the 60’s there was only three TV channels, No video games, No computers or Internet. Young kid’s like me and many others did not mind spending hour’s building things. I built many plastic models of Super Heroes and Monsters, try finding them in Hobby Stores, so if Estes brings out many RTF and E2x Kits then thank of the kids today, (way spend hours building something with Video Games around). Remember there are much more kids out there than us BAR.

Also remember Estes has had Easy to build rockets even back in the 70’s remember the Birdie?

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/70est056.html

How about the cold power rockets?

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/72est028.html

And the RTF plastic rockets that came out in 1973?

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/estes73/73est8.html

Also the Alpha III has been around since the 70’s.

I personally fell that as Long as they do not forged us the BAR, like they did in the late 90’s then way criticize Estes, for unlike Fliskits they are a full time company that has a large employment staff to keep working.

K.M.Knox
04-25-2008, 08:46 PM
I personally fell that as Long as they do not forged us the BAR, like they did in the late 90’s then way criticize Estes, for unlike Fliskits they are a full time company that has a large employment staff to keep working.

I think this is the line that gets me thinking about progress, participation, activity, etc...

Since Estes is a large company, you would think there are people that could get out there and support the hobby at the meetings, conventions, and other gatherings. If there are more then a few people working then one would think the catalog is ahead of schedule, the designs are new and interesting, and the website is kept up-to-date and fresh(especially in this day and age). In my mind a company that is based on a hobby and competing for "entertainment" dollars in todays economy needs to to hear it's demographic and feel the pulse of the hobby it is invested in. There is a reason we see Carl, Jim, Phred, and the others hanging around the forums and answering questions, giving advice, and throwing around their 2 cents... It is no question that everything is competing with computers, TV, and video games in a childs life now-a-days. (And I am not going to get into it being the parents "fault" in this post.) Instant gratification is the key here, and that was hit right on the button...

With that being said, Arley is right on when he mentions RTF's, easy to build kits, and fire out of the box starter sets. Estes fills that nitch of getting the kids hooked, roping in there parents, and finding the other companies out there that provide new and interesting designs/etc.. They have their place in todays hobby and unfortunately it is no where near where it could be in my eyes. If you travel enough forums you see the crawlers hold their loyalties right to their chests. There are always those that ridicule, idolize, hop on the fence and not choose sides, and those that just keep their mouths shut. With all that said, it is nice to see a group that for the most part keeps it on their shoulder while allowing others to speak their mind.

The new kits are gonna be fun, no doubt about that. Their will always be room for improvement but that just goes without saying. And yeah, the current Estes might have burned a few bridges along the way but unfortunately that is often the case with large companies... I am looking forward to the '08 catalog and the expected new releases! And remember I am still holding out hope there is something else coming :p

Mark II
04-25-2008, 10:11 PM
If people want to do nothing but complain about the present-day Estes company, they're free to do so. I'm sure the company is absolutely nothing like the way it was back in the '60's, '70's, and '80's. But frankly, not much else is the way it used to be, and I think a lot of you guys are viewing the past through *deeply* rose-colored glasses.

I was never involved in model rocketry at all until 2004, so I don't know from personal experience how things used to be.

[...]

Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, and it's one reason I'm going to NARAM-50 this summer. I do enjoy learning about the history of model rocketry, and I hope to get to meet Vern and Gleda just like I was lucky enough to meet Lee and (I think) Piester at NARCON 2006 two years ago.
I'm not quite as accepting of the current state of the company as you are, but I share your view that it is not "pure" evil (probably).

But if you want to know why us older "lifers" and BARS (and I recognize that you are part of the same generation) feel so dismayed with where the Estes corporation has gone in the past 20 years, remember that we were all young when we first encountered the original Estes Industries, and not well into adulthood like you were. (I don't intend that to be read as any kind of dig; it is just a statement of fact.) The ethics, ideals and practices of that earlier company made a big impression on all of us when we were at an impressionable age and growing up during a very idealistic time in history (again, I acknowledge that you no doubt vividly remember that time, too).

To get a sense of what the old Estes Industries was like, imagine a company with the heart and soul and leadership mission (and huge catalog) of the present-day Semroc, combined with the educational mission of Apogee Components, the innovation of FlisKits, the artistry of The Squirrel Works and of Sirius Rocketry, Quest's outreach orientation, and the customer service and the dedication to the hobby of these and a dozen other present-day companies, all wrapped up in one entity that had played a pivotal role in the establishment of the hobby less than a decade beforehand and that had remained in the forefront of it ever since. And also realize that as Vern and Gleda Estes, who had started the company as a family business, shared little glimpses of their family life with all of us (as they did from time to time), they made us feel like family, too.

And then imagine that this company has a competitor of roughly eqiuivalent size who possesses all of the same ideals and nearly all of the same features. And imagine that the hobby is still being created day by day, with the substantial involvement, and even the leadership, of that first company (and its competitor). (And that the aeronautic discipline that it was based on, rocketry, had only just been developed into a science, and was still in the process of being invented.) Finally, imagine that you are somewhere between the ages of 8 and 15 as you encounter and then become a customer of this company.

You quickly learn about that company's ethics and ideals, and soon they become your ethics and ideals, too. And, through your experience as a customer, you see how that company is run, and you realize, "That's how a company in this field should be run. That's the kind of company that I want to give my business to."

It is not rose-colored nostalgia that is behind the all negative comments from that earlier company's customers about the present-day Estes/Cox company, it is profound disappointment.

Mark

Royatl
04-26-2008, 01:05 AM
Hear! Hear!

K.M.Knox
04-26-2008, 06:37 AM
Very well said Mark.

Rocket Doctor
04-26-2008, 08:03 AM
There will never be an estes Industries,Inc, that we all knew and loved from years ago. From 1958 until the sale of estes to damon in 1969, they were the good years. Veern and gleda were dedicated to the hobby and to their loyal customers, and, they are still dedicated to the hobby and their fellow rocketeers.

As the years progressed, the dedication to the hobby has drastically declined, as evident in participation and dedication to the hobby and to their customers.

Estes-Cox could be much better if they just listened to their loyal customers, didn't worry about RTF's, and the mass merchandisers and forget about hobby shops.

You need to offer products that your loyal customer wants, not what you percieve they want. You need to listen to the contructive criticism of your customers and not to take it personally.

You need to attend national events, such as NARCON,NSL and NARAM. You need to support local clubs and to attend trade shows and rub elbows with hobby shops owners and their customers.

You need to produce a newletter and offer programs to entice new customers. By selling mainly RTF's, that's fine, but, that doesn't keep customers, they buy a kit or two and that's it, for everyone that purchases and drops out, there three more behind them, a vicious cysle.

You need to improve you porducts, offer more motors and listen to your customers and not cast them aside.

You need to priduce a catalog that should be available in January, not May and continue to offer new and exciting kits and products.

You need to have prices that are affordable, especially replacement parts.

Inorder to get respect, you need to give respect, your customers are your backbone, so, why cast them aside, listen to what they have to say and then go from there.

Everyone doesn't have a clue as to what is going on, just speculation, I hope that Estes will wake up before it's too late.

This is my opinion.

cas2047
04-26-2008, 08:26 AM
Very well said and spot on RD!!!

Mark II
04-26-2008, 02:42 PM
I was going to post a follow-up message saying what I thought that Estes-Cox could do to improve its image with our community, but the good Doctor has already expressed everything that I was going to say, and better than I would have said it.

I just wanted to make it clear that what I posted the last time was not intended to disparage jrthro's remarks (although I do have a different perspective on the subject than the one he expressed). Nor was I trying to say what I thought the present-day Estes-Cox company should go back to being. jrthro said that he hadn't had any experiences with the Vern and Gleda-run Estes Industries, and so I wanted to paint a picture of it for him (a very personal picture, I admit), using examples from the present day. I also wanted to point out that for many of us old-timers, ordering from EI was our first significant experience with the world of commerce. It was for many our first real sustained relationship as consumers with a commercial vendor, and so it had an inordinately large impact on us. If we had first encountered the company when we were adults, like he did, we might feel differently now toward it (maybe a little bit, at least). I wrote all of that just to try to provide some insight into where we were coming from.

I also don't think that I painted an overly rosy picture of the old company. I think that Vern Estes was very conscious of what he was doing when he set up the company and laid out its policies and practices. I think that he was quite aware that the company would have the very kind of relationship with its young customers that I just described. I also feel that the way the company related to its customers truly reflected the values and ideals of Vern, Gleda, and their early employees and managers. A very different, and much more kid-oriented and kid-friendly, culture predominated in America back in those days than what is dominant today.

The Estes Industries that operated under Vern and Gleda Estes functioned to a limited extent as a sort of very large mom-and-pop operation, especially in the first few years. They ran the company, including Mabel, practically out of their backyard, for Pete's sake! (Although it was housed in a modern commercial plant, I should add.) I doubt that any similar company could long survive (or perhaps even be allowed to) operate that way today. I do think that RD hit the nail on the head when he said, and has been saying for some time, that the key thing that Estes-Cox needs to do today is to improve their communication with and willingness to accept input from their customer base. Doing so would go a very long way toward reversing the negative image of the company that has been discussed in this and other threads.

Just some clarification (and another editorial).

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-26-2008, 03:23 PM
A company, any company needs to be open to suggestions from it's cutomers. M<any companies just have departments set up to handle customer inquiries, and, they appreciate the feedback. It not only help them improve a product, but, to develop new products as well.

It's the customers that are the back bone of any company, without them, you have NOTHING !!!Those in management of any company need to respect their customers opinion, right or wrong, and, sort through it all, to come up with some sense of direction.

You know the old addage, "The customer is always right"., This may not hold true in all cases, but, those who use products, after awhile become very familiar with those products and their use.

Anyone who suggests improvements, aren't doing it to belittle a company, rather , to help a company prosper.

In my opinion, if your runnig or own a company, you should know the product, inside and out, that is the only way that you can speak about your product on a one to one basis.

False or misleading information won't get you anywhere, you need the knowledge.

Promoting your products is eaqually important, you must get out there and promote and advertise you product, how many commercials do we see on TV constantly, companies are spending big bucks to promote their products.

If doesn't take much to send a represnetative to a national event, in this case, just your mere presence should show your customers that you CARE about them, and , are willing to listen to their input, right or wrong.

Employees can only do so much to help out their company, in most cases, their hands are tied. Fearing the repercussions of trying to make things better. This philosopy, in my opiion, is wrong. If your employees are willing to take extra time to make suggestions that could/would improve a products, it's not only beneficial to the company, but, to the customer as well.

Those in management of any company should be open to suggestions, from within, or , from those on the outside, they are not making constructive criticism to bring the company down, rather to improve it, but, perception is the key.

Times have certainly changed since 1958 - 1969, Vern and gleda put their heart and sole into their "little venture".

And, as a matter of fact, they housed Mabel in their back yard in Denver, before moving to Penrose. You can check out that move on Vern's web page www.vernestes.com, that video tells it all.

Vern, was so into his company, you can see him laying block for his new building, now, that's dedication.

We can kick this around and around forever, we all have our own personal thoughts on this topic.

I thought for sure that the Estes Forum would have helped to make changes, but, those changes needed the management to be open minded with those suggestions.

Times are tough for everyone, and, I'm glad that it's the 50th anniversary of the hobby, for me, I have participated in 44 years of that.

Once again, this is my opinion on a hobby that I have enjoyed all of these years.

Arley Davis
04-26-2008, 03:55 PM
I still thank some of you are being a little hard on Estes, but with that said, the main problem with Estes is a lack of communication with customers. It got better when they had a Forum, but then they closed it without even an expiation way.

But remember what was posted on the Forum, most of us what’d Water Slide Decals and Longer Shook Cords and Estes listened for the most part. Also many of us asked to see the Interceptor be re-released and it was. But there is more they could do that is true, as will as releasing the catalog at the first of the year not in the middle.

On a personal note I got interested in Rocketry in the late 1960’s then become a BAR in the1990’s with my kids about 15 years ago, and now with my Grandson Jacob.

My first High Power Rocket.

Mark II
04-26-2008, 04:10 PM
I still thank some of you are being a little hard on Estes, but with that said, the main problem with Estes is a lack of communication with customers. It got better when they had a Forum, but then they closed it without even an expiation way.
I would very much like to see an Estes-Cox company that enjoys a much better reputation with its dedicated customer base.

But remember what was posted on the Forum, most of us what’d Water Slide Decals and Longer Shook Cords and Estes listened for the most part. Also many of us asked to see the Interceptor be re-released and it was. But there is more they could do that is true, as will as releasing the catalog at the first of the year not in the middle.
Communication works!!! Let's have more of it!

On a personal note I got interested in Rocketry in the late 1960’s then become a BAR in the1990’s with my kids about 15 years ago, and now with my Grandson Jacob.

My first High Power Rocket.
A Warlock! Very cool!

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-26-2008, 04:21 PM
I would very much like to see an Estes-Cox company that enjoys a much better reputation with its dedicated customer base.


Communication works!!! Let's have more of it!


A Warlock! Very cool!

Mark

Arley

The Interceptor 1250 and 1350 were planned way before the Froum started in January 2007, those go back to October 2006, as well as the Der red Max. Estes had to do something, other than RTF's with the same design and just a different name.

The shock cords were not lengthened, the Intercept 1350 should have a minimum of 41 inches of shock cord, not what is in it now, that was discussed over and over, and I was told it would be taken care of, and it wasn't.

All kits were to have their shock cord increased, but haven't.
The topic of motrs were discussed over and over again, the "shot gun" ejections charges, the motrs still run "hot". a bigger selection of motors, expecially boosters, the B6-0 could have been put into three packs, you can find them in educator packs, what would it take to repack them?

What about supporting the customeer base by attending national events, as I have repeated over and over agin, what would it take to send someone to NARCON,NSL and NARAM/

It's the 50th anniversary, not only of Vern and Gleda's start of their "little venture" but , the NAR and estes as well. Who is celevbrating, ?Vern and Gleda through the Golden Scout/Sky of Gold, for which they are very greatful, and the NAR, through NARAM 50 in Mnassas VA.

We and I am not picking on
estes , but, look at the facts, then, come to a conclusion.

The Estes Forum benefitted everyone, but, what happened, it was pulled down, even I, as the moderator was taken by surprise. It's like having the rug pulled out from under your feet, next thing you know, your on the ground.

Pulling down the Estes forum effected me very personally, I tried to help my fellow rocketeers and the company as well............and, was met with RESISTANCE.

The deicated employees going back to the hey days of the company were diedicated to the company, and, they were treated with RESPECT.......

Tis is my opinion once again, and, I think that I am entitled to it.

barone
04-26-2008, 08:03 PM
Hey,....has any one seen the new kits Estes is releasing? Man I'm really looking forward to getting a few. :D

Vanel
04-26-2008, 09:44 PM
Ok, I guess I have sat around idlely for too long...

I think you guys are missing a key point here - Estes IS responsive to its customers, which are not the scant few thousand NAR members/BARs across the country, but the many, many more who visit Walmart, Targets, etc. across the country. What do these customers want?

RTFs, or maybe an easy build or two, starter or launch sets, and a few motors here and there.

So, if I own a business, and I have a choice between releasing product that will sell on the shelves of several incredibly popular retail chains and releasing products that will appeal only to about 6000 folks in the entire country, what I am going to do?

Duh... :rolleyes: Does anyone out there really believe we are Estes' target consumer base?

Back in the 60's and 70's, folks like us were indeed Estes' customers - now we are a small niche market.

Many complain about Estes shutting down its forum - which WAS a bad idea - but consider the following managerial reasoning:

a) I am getting complaints about product line, both current and projected, from a consultant, who bases his arguments on feedback received through the forum.

b) Said forum is comprised of 600 or so members, which constitutes about 1/10th of the niche market, which is a small fraction of total sales.

c) Suggestions received through forum usually involve kit and motor "bring backs", none of which would enhance mass market sales.

d) Forum is not useful for customer - i.e. the Walmart crowd - feedback.

e) All of the above equates to a PITA - axe the forum.

Like I said, a bad idea - but as a person who funds researchers, I have had to deal with those who insist their way is right, even if my customers - NASA programs - need something else. Such researchers remain unfunded. My customers must be served - same holds true for the Estes of today.

Today, I peruse the websites of Semroc, Fliskits, Squirrel Works, Red River and others with the same passion as I studied the old Estes and Centuri catalogs; I wait by the mailbox with the same eagerness, hoping the postman brings me my orders. I am THEIR customer, and we are now in the golden age of rocketry, an era where we have unparalleled choices.

So quit trying to bring back the past. Estes cares not for us and our anniversaries - in terms of customer base, why should they? Enjoy the present - Rocketry is fun!!!

(However, I would really, really love it if someone would produce a B14 and C5 :D )

Mark II
04-27-2008, 12:09 AM
So quit trying to bring back the past. Estes cares not for us and our anniversaries - in terms of customer base, why should they? Enjoy the present - Rocketry is fun!!!

(However, I would really, really love it if someone would produce a B14 and C5 :D )
Bill, I understand and respect your position, but on a couple of your points, I have a different POV. This is just my opinion, but I don't think that anyone is proposing to turn back the clock and bring back the past; the concern is with the present, and the future. (References were made to the past, at least by me, in order to provide some background context about where some of the strong opinions were coming from, and because this is the year that we are honoring our hobby's history.) The other area where I have a different take on things is that I kind of suspect that the hobbyist segment of Estes' customer base may still be important to their marketing strategy (or else why would they even bother with things like the bring backs and the new Shrox kits). We hobbyists may appear to Estes management to be a troublesome, noisy and demanding segment of their customer base, but, by the looks of things, we are a segment that they need to (and maybe even want to) keep. (They sometimes have a funny way of showing it, though.) I suspect that their view of the situation with us is that it is all very complicated, and is not simply black and white. In fact, I have no way of knowing how Estes senior management actually views the hobbyist market, but I suspect that they may feel that, whether they like it or not, they still need us, just as whether many of us who are members of that segment want to admit it or not, we still need them, too. That is why I think that reestablishing the lines of communication may greatly help to smooth out the bumps in the relationship (so that, among other things, threads about Estes products don't keep turning into this) and it may help in getting everyone's noses back into joint (including mine).

The reason that I even care about any of this is because I greatly enjoy the hobby of model rocketry, just as you do. And because my feelings about the Estes company that I found when I came back to the hobby are all rather complicated, too. (But I am pleased to hear about the new kits.)

Remember, this is all just discussion, after all.

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-27-2008, 05:30 AM
,
















First of all ,the mass merchnsdisers have turned away from Estes , for a large segment of Estes history, the local mom and pop hobby shop was the backbone of the company, as well as mail order.
Then, in 1992, the emphasis was placed on the mass, and the hobby shop segment was put on the back burner.

But now, many of the mass carry very little Estes products, if at all. Many of the WalMart stores don't carry it now, and , those who do, offer very little. I have an email from Bentonville stating this, and, I have talked to store management and a distribution manager as well.

The model rockets that are available at WM is pitifull, when they only offer a handfull of motors, including the A10-3T, and have no rockets to support it, then something is wrong. When they are "educated" into what they should be carrying, and, fail to do so, something is wrong. You cannot offer the same old, same old merchandise, and, think you will have customers. Eventually, your customer base will have all the launchable starter set that they can handle. It's the same for Kmart, who has very little or no Estes products and the same holds true for Toy-R-Us.

As far as the Forum goes, I think having a membership of 600 in just three months is great, and, out of that 600, a vast majority of those were seasoned rocketeers, who have been in the hobby and know what they are talking about. You did have a few rogue members, but, those rogue members did't shut the forum down.

Getting back to mass for a mement, if you go to any mass and ask a question about rocketry porducts, they have no clue, when I discussed the huge inventory of A10-3T motors with an asisstant manager, he said, "Oh, they go with what kits we have now". Untrue, they haven't carried any mini motor kits in probably a year. So, if management doesn't know, do you think the department head knows. At least at your local hobby shop, in most cases, the owner knows his products, and can offer help and assistance.

Inorder to get newbees in the hobby, they need to learn the proper way to build and launch their rockets, and, be encouraged to come back. If you go to the mass, who is there to guide the newbees , knowone. And, once they are discouraged, they won't be back.

And, instead of offering so many RTF's,and not at least changing them, rather just the name, you need to offer something different. For example, when Estes came out with the RTF line, they didn't come out with just 2 or 3, there were 18, now, who is going to buy 18 RTF's? And, most of these were starter sets to boot.

There also should be a mix of kits for all skill levels and they should also include kits with good old BALSA.

There are some good "standards " of kits available, such as the Big Beertha and Alpha, as well as the popular Baby Bertha . Kits need to be geared toward what their customers want, not, what is perceived. For example, the X-Prize line didn't do well, as did the second generation Star Wars ,as you know, all plastic, very heavy and knowone wanted them. A big waste of time and money. They ended up being sold in discount stores.

Quoting Judge Judy "You don't have your listening ears on". Communications is the key to revitalizing Estes, if you don't want input from your customers, then, why set up a forum, not everythinhg is going to be rosey . As I have stated before, many companies pay big money for focus groups and have departments dedicated to customer feedback.

What happened with the water slide decals, they are not up to standard, have to be replaced , and in the case of the Red Max, where wrong from the beginning, after, been given a sample of the original.

What happended to the shock cord lengths, as I pointed out before, the shock cord on the 1350 Interceptor is way too short, using the 1 1/2 formula, the shock cord should be at least 41 inches long.

Comments and points of view here are not being made to belittle anyone at Estes or the company as a whole, but, common, listen to your customers and stop being so hard headed.

As with the former Estes, the employees were/are dedicated to the hobby, but now , are met with lots of resistance in the process.

And, once again , this is my opinion.

















F

Mark II
04-27-2008, 07:19 PM
Wow, I can really be full of myself, sometimes.

Please forgive me for hogging the bandwidth again while I interrupt the discussion with this little personal note. I realized just as I was logging off last night that I had been getting so carried away with my righteous indignation in this thread that I totally missed the point that was being made in all four of the posts that I wrote responses to. There I was, complaining that a company wasn't listening to its customers, and yet I was committing the same kind of sin, not listening to what my fellow forum members were saying.

So let me get off my high horse now (and watch where I step) and make apologies to John, Arley, Kurt and Bill. Now I understand what you all were saying in your posts, and I do, in fact, agree. There are too many good things happening in our hobby right now to let the bonehead actions of one company spoil the fun. And while I continue to maintain that this company seems to be bent on pursuing a wrong-headed strategy and has done a couple of things that were even disrespectful, I do recognize that the company is not totally worthless. I feel that it is perfectly all right for us to use this forum or this thread to discuss our thoughts and feelings about these matters. But at the same time, I am not trying to make this into, and I don't want it to become, a call for choosing sides or the organization of a campaign or the start of a holy war. There are places in YORF where people ask questions of a factual nature, and in those threads there may be right answers and wrong answers, but in this kind of thread, where there can be many different takes on a topic, everyone is entitled to their own point of view, and no one's point of view is more valid than anyone else's. I don't want anything that I have said or will say to communicate otherwise.

Rocket Doctor, you know that I am with you 100% on this matter that we are discussing, including everything that you said in your latest post, but in previous posts I had failed to pick up on some of the things that even you were saying, too, and I apologize for that. I will make more of an effort to be less in love with the sound of my own voice and will pay more attention to the views expressed by other forum members.

Now back to our regular programming...

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-27-2008, 08:01 PM
Mark

You need not apologize for anything, you have the right to your own opinions, as do other members here.

Some of us, though , have some details that the general population are not aware of.

I am dedicated to this hobby, and have been for the past 44 years now, but, it puzzles me at the direction it has been going, .

I'm glad that we all can celebrate the 50th anniversary, and , especially the 50th Anniversary of Vern and Gleda's dedication to the hobby.

RD

K.M.Knox
04-27-2008, 09:53 PM
No apology needed. I agree with just about everything, maybe even everything everyone has said. And who cares if any of us choose sides. This, I dare say, has been one of the few threads where we have voiced are opinions about the topic and not gotten flamed for having them... Keep up the drivel, I love it.

And those who have inside knowledge, it is enlightening to say the least. All too often we as consumers sit back and ask "Why did this company do that?" All we can do is speculate and theorize our answers. To have people that are/were directly involved in those companies voicing there knowledge/opinions is great!

And I still looking forward to the new kits... Now that Federation in the other thread is really got my eye... I can hope.

AKPilot
04-28-2008, 11:24 AM
I posted a few minutes ago under 'Free For All' but, I took my concerns to Estes last week concerning their lack of involvement. I got an e-mail from Barry Tunick over the weekend asking if we could do a telecon this week. Should be interesting . . .

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I posted a few minutes ago under 'Free For All' but, I took my concerns to Estes last week concerning their lack of involvement. I got an e-mail from Barry Tunick over the weekend asking if we could do a telecon this week. Should be interesting . . .

I agreee, that should be very interesting to say the least. Did you send a letter to Barry, a phone call?

I wish you luck, have your fact and figures ready though.

AKPilot
04-28-2008, 12:30 PM
I agreee, that should be very interesting to say the least. Did you send a letter to Barry, a phone call?

I wish you luck, have your fact and figures ready though.

It was an e-mail to the customer service center. In fairness, it was my second one on such a topic - after their non-support of NARCON.

As for facts and figures, I understand what you're saying, however I'm not going there. I'm a customer who has a concern - that's it. I'm not going to debate, in any way, shape, or form as there's no need to. It's his company, he has the option to run it his way. I don't need to know why they do things that wasn't the intent. My intent, in sending the e-mail, was for them to listen to me - us as hobbyists. I don't need, nor want, an explanation.

Again, I'm glad they came out with new kits, they do provide a valuable entry-level introduction to the hobby, but I am disappointed that they are turning their back on supporting 50th Anniversary events and not making any 50th Anniversary releases.

I'm making the assumption he wants to listen. If he doesn't want to listen to a customer, whose contributed to his earnings, then I have more valuable ways of using my time and will end it there. I have enough vendors to select from who do listen . . .

Hey, maybe it's an offer for a Director's-level position? ;) Hope they can beat my current benefits.

roguepink2
04-28-2008, 12:56 PM
Now for words from someone who actually worked for Estes in Penrose, CO...

What Rocket Doctor says holds true in that Estes has made the hobby market a secondary interest. What most people don't understand is that once you get involved with WalMart, you are there for life. Its like the Mafia. Estes cannot quit WalMart without going out of business, and knowing that, WalMart can dictate product, pricing, distribution, nearly ALL aspects of business operations. This is WHY they can't go back to the hobby rocket company they once were. Estes is now FORCED to reduce cost to satisfy WalMart's buyers demands. Add to that the drastic increase in fuel costs for shipping and plastic manufacture, a shrinking hobby market overall, and Estes is in a very tough spot. I would not be surprised to see layoffs and reorganizations this year.

I left Estes, on good terms, in December of 2007 for personal reasons. I do know that my job has been distributed among the remaining designers and the position of model maker is likely to remain vacant for some time to come. This explains why so many CG images are used on packaging now, though the recent Shrox entries are in fact photos of my work. I am still building models for Estes on a limited freelance basis, by the way, but I do not expect much in the way of actual models for packaging anymore.

Barry Tunick has led Estes through many strong years, let's be fair to him in that. I still think of him as a friend as well as a former boss.

My concern is this: I am no longer contributing designs, Rocket Doctor is apparently out of favor now, I hear that John Boren is now gone (a great designer, and a true loss for Estes) and Mike Dorffler is near retirement. WHO is there with any real historical knowledge and experience to design new rockets?

A few comments on the new product for 2008...

MIRV and its smaller sibling Fracture are both single booster to multiple independent second stage rockets. The booster stage fires into a manifold that ignites three separate motors. Sort of explains the names, doesn't it?

Daedalus is indeed the Icarus. Icarus was unavailable as a name so I offered Daedalus as an alternative. If you know your mythology, Daedalus was Icarus's father and the inventor of the waxen wings that let them escape Crete.

The Lancer was the Stiletto. Or is that the other way around? I forget. Also a Shrox design, my paintwork in the photos. If anyone wants, I'm happy to explain the paint process on that one. Its complicated. A bit like the big Interceptor, a multi-stage process.

The Solar Flare was MY name choice, I created the deco and color scheme, and it was designed by John Boren. It is a traditional two-stager. Sorry, R.D., that one really didn't come from you. It was my last design contribution to Estes before I left and I am very proud of it.

I regret that I will never see Pigasus come to being.

Shreadvector
04-28-2008, 01:00 PM
OK, it's the educator catalog, but that's something....

http://www.esteseducator.com/Pdf_files/2008EducatorCatalog.pdf

AKPilot
04-28-2008, 01:14 PM
Roguepink's alive . . . now where is he living and what's he doing?

roguepink2
04-28-2008, 01:23 PM
Heh. He's living in St. Louis, eating toasted ravioli, and going freelance.

I can work in my UNDERWEAR now!

Mark II
04-28-2008, 01:35 PM
I posted a few minutes ago under 'Free For All' but, I took my concerns to Estes last week concerning their lack of involvement. I got an e-mail from Barry Tunick over the weekend asking if we could do a telecon this week. Should be interesting . . .
The fact that the CEO of the company is willing to take the time to talk with you is a very good sign. Good job and good luck!

Mark

AKPilot
04-28-2008, 01:43 PM
Heh. He's living in St. Louis, eating toasted ravioli, and going freelance.
!

So when we going to lunch then? And when are you coming to launch with us out in St. Peters?

Mark II
04-28-2008, 01:44 PM
Now for words from someone who actually worked for Estes in Penrose, CO...

[...]


Thanks, rougepink! This information makes the situation a bit less opaque and adds the kind of balance that this discussion was lacking.

I regret that I will never see Pigasus come to being.
I have heard that name, and have been wondering ever since what on earth it was. But maybe you are not at liberty to provide any further information about it...

Mark

Early Starts
04-28-2008, 01:58 PM
A few comments on the new product for 2008...

MIRV and its smaller sibling Fracture are both single booster to multiple independent second stage rockets. The booster stage fires into a manifold that ignites three separate motors. Sort of explains the names, doesn't it?

Daedalus is indeed the Icarus. Icarus was unavailable as a name so I offered Daedalus as an alternative. If you know your mythology, Daedalus was Icarus's father and the inventor of the waxen wings that let them escape Crete.

The Lancer was the Stiletto. Or is that the other way around? I forget. Also a Shrox design, my paintwork in the photos. If anyone wants, I'm happy to explain the paint process on that one. Its complicated. A bit like the big Interceptor, a multi-stage process.

The Solar Flare was MY name choice, I created the deco and color scheme, and it was designed by John Boren. It is a traditional two-stager. Sorry, R.D., that one really didn't come from you. It was my last design contribution to Estes before I left and I am very proud of it.

I regret that I will never see Pigasus come to being.

Thanks for the info!! I am very excited about the new rockets. MIRV sounds even more interesting now. Will the Solar Flare be a kit or a RTF or both?

ghrocketman
04-28-2008, 02:56 PM
I wonder if it ever bothers RoGUepink that some people get his name wrong and refer to him as RoUGepink ?
I know it would irritate the heck out of me.
I'm actually surprised I have never seen him correct the mis-spellings seeing as the meaning between the two is very different for those two words.

Rogue (the correct spelling if one looks at his screen name) is semi-synonymous with "Maverick" or "Renegade" or "Outlaw" and was the name of an Estes rocket kit in the mid70's to early 80's

Rouge (NOT the correct spelling) is the french word for the color Red.

BIG difference in meaning.

What Roguepink says about Walmart makes a lot of sense...once you are in, you can never get out until you DIE....more the reason to avoid them like the plague unless you like having a thumb atop your head all the time.
I personally think Walmart (and some other "big box" stores to a lesser extent) is the BANE of our economy with their "lowest price at all cost no matter what it destroys" philosophy.
I very rarely if ever am in a Walmart and feel guilty when I am knowing the vast majority of all employees are paid below a living wage with benefits that are even worse all the while the fat-cats at the top rake in money hand over fist at the expense of smaller companies.

JRThro
04-28-2008, 03:00 PM
So let me get off my high horse now (and watch where I step) and make apologies to John, Arley, Kurt and Bill. Now I understand what you all were saying in your posts, and I do, in fact, agree. There are too many good things happening in our hobby right now to let the bonehead actions of one company spoil the fun. And while I continue to maintain that this company seems to be bent on pursuing a wrong-headed strategy and has done a couple of things that were even disrespectful, I do recognize that the company is not totally worthless. I feel that it is perfectly all right for us to use this forum or this thread to discuss our thoughts and feelings about these matters. But at the same time, I am not trying to make this into, and I don't want it to become, a call for choosing sides or the organization of a campaign or the start of a holy war. There are places in YORF where people ask questions of a factual nature, and in those threads there may be right answers and wrong answers, but in this kind of thread, where there can be many different takes on a topic, everyone is entitled to their own point of view, and no one's point of view is more valid than anyone else's. I don't want anything that I have said or will say to communicate otherwise.
Hey, Mark, I don't think any apologies are necessary, at least not to me. I wasn't offended in the least at anything you've said. Your background and experience with Estes are far different from mine, and so of course your point of view and opinion of the company are different from mine.

On the other hand, I hope no one was offended at how cavalierly I accused the old-time Estes fans of seeing the past through rose-colored glasses. I understand as well as I can how you all feel about the company, but since I haven't shared your experiences, I also don't share your feelings. If it sounded like I was belittling the way you guys feel, I apologize.

Mark II
04-28-2008, 03:25 PM
I wonder if it ever bothers RoGUepink that some people get his name wrong and refer to him as RoUGepink ?
Guilty... and I apologize for the error. Thanks, ghrocketman, for pointing that out.

Mark

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-28-2008, 03:28 PM
I wonder if it ever bothers RoGUepink that some people get his name wrong and refer to him as RoUGepink ?


No. It's a screen name, not a secret identity.

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Heh. He's living in St. Louis, eating toasted ravioli, and going freelance.

I can work in my UNDERWEAR now!

Underwear? BRILLIANT!!! A much more convenient place to wipe glue! Building naked has some drawbacks. :eek:

roguepink2
04-28-2008, 03:34 PM
I tried it at work once (working naked). It was all going fine until Barry came down, and then HE wanted to do it, and next thing you know, Estes was going NUDIST.

Rogue, as in "renegade" "maverick" and "outlaw" is the correct chosen meaning.

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-28-2008, 03:43 PM
Rogue, as in "renegade" "maverick" and "outlaw" is the correct chosen meaning.

One of the guys I flew with in 1977 built a Rogue as his first rocket, but insisted on calling it the Rouge, so there's 30 years of precedent for this. ;)

tbzep
04-28-2008, 03:45 PM
I personally think Walmart (and some other "big box" stores to a lesser extent) is the BANE of our economy with their "lowest price at all cost no matter what it destroys" philosophy.


That's only half of the problem. The other half is that people think they have to have everything and have it now. Therefore, they are only willing to pay the bottom dollar at the expense of paying a bit more for good service from mom-n-pop stores. It's ok to do without everything except rockets. ;)

Shreadvector
04-28-2008, 03:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_There_in_Truth_No_Beauty%3F




I tried it at work once (working naked). It was all going fine until Barry came down, and then HE wanted to do it, and next thing you know, Estes was going NUDIST.

Rogue, as in "renegade" "maverick" and "outlaw" is the correct chosen meaning.

JRThro
04-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Heh. He's living in St. Louis, eating toasted ravioli, and going freelance.

I can work in my UNDERWEAR now!
Ooh, toasted ravioli!!!

I haven't had those since I got out of college, more or less. My roommate was from North County somewhere (and I was from St. Charles).

Mark II
04-28-2008, 04:08 PM
Guilty... and I apologize for the error. Thanks, ghrocketman, for pointing that out.

Mark
And yes, I do know the difference between the two words; I just misread the name. But to compound my guilt, awhile back when rp was previously a member of this forum, I did correctly read and know the spelling of his screen name - I just forgot it between then and now! (Oh, the shame...) :o

But constructing a screen name out of the words "rogue" and "pink" - now that wouldn't have been done to exploit the ambiguity, would it?

Mark

roguepink2
04-28-2008, 05:14 PM
No.



Okay, I'm only going to say this once.

Back in high school, I used the rather trite online handle of Pink Floyd. Favorite band, right? Due to some hysterics on my mom's part, no doubt fed by the media witch-hunt fear of the fledgling online communities, I had my modem taken away. I started logging on from friends' computers, thus I had gone ROGUE.

Been using it ever since.

Is this thread still talking about rockets for 2008?

I'm shocked, because I know there were two more Shrox designs I had built and painted. I also know there was a project using some electronics and I recall that John Boren had some great ideas for mass-market two-stage rockets using plastic adapters.

I had wanted to kit a Russian N-1 rocket with a Soyuz. It got shot down my marketing, "who would want to buy a Russian rocket?" Looks like Apogee has one, though not really scale looking.

poke44
04-28-2008, 05:32 PM
Was at HL today with my 40% coupon and looked at the clerance isle. They had the eggscalabur, renegade, scissor wing and the 'E' powered no pointing needed rocket i jsut cant remember its name all marked down like 30% or so... they also had some big daddy's there but they were not marked down. and they still had some in the regular place.

So not sure if these are being discontinued or just shuffling the line HL offers... though on the renegades spot it said deleted.

dwmzmm
04-28-2008, 05:32 PM
I'm shocked, because I know there were two more Shrox designs I had built and painted. I also know there was a project using some electronics and I recall that John Boren had some great ideas for mass-market two-stage rockets using plastic adapters.

I had wanted to kit a Russian N-1 rocket with a Soyuz. It got shot down my marketing, "who would want to buy a Russian rocket?" Looks like Apogee has one, though not really scale looking.


Boren's mass - market two stage design...I saw one at the Makers Faire in Austin last October, and can tell you (from my perspective, if my 38 years in the hobby means anything) that this design was a real winner. I was looking forward to being one of the
first to buy one once it came out in the market (already bought the AstroBeam as soon as
I saw one at Wal-Mart, which, I think, is also Boren's design).

Russian rockets? I'd buy one. Already bought the Apogee Vostok, even though it's a bit
over priced and not all that detailed, but that can (and will) be solved when I get around
to building it.

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 07:54 PM
Hey Rouguepink, nice to know your around again.
Just think, 25% of us at the October new product meeting are GONE.....

And, my Shooting Star, Jump Zone, Siren, Bell X-1 and GOLD K-1 Scout didn't make it either.

Denny, Gary, Tom. John, you and I are GONE.

Then, Scott posted your job on TRF, and, that's after BT made the comments about forums.

Check out the Sky Of Gold, Golden Scouts at www.semroc.com or www.semroc.com/skyofgold.

Remember what happened when I suggested a GOLD rocket for the 50th anniveersary.

How about the anniversary set, shot down, April 2007, what a way to celebrate.....Huh???

at least we are honoring Vern and Gleda Estes, that's what counts the most.

PM me when you can.

RD

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 08:04 PM
Now for words from someone who actually worked for Estes in Penrose, CO...

What Rocket Doctor says holds true in that Estes has made the hobby market a secondary interest. What most people don't understand is that once you get involved with WalMart, you are there for life. Its like the Mafia. Estes cannot quit WalMart without going out of business, and knowing that, WalMart can dictate product, pricing, distribution, nearly ALL aspects of business operations. This is WHY they can't go back to the hobby rocket company they once were. Estes is now FORCED to reduce cost to satisfy WalMart's buyers demands. Add to that the drastic increase in fuel costs for shipping and plastic manufacture, a shrinking hobby market overall, and Estes is in a very tough spot. I would not be surprised to see layoffs and reorganizations this year.

I left Estes, on good terms, in December of 2007 for personal reasons. I do know that my job has been distributed among the remaining designers and the position of model maker is likely to remain vacant for some time to come. This explains why so many CG images are used on packaging now, though the recent Shrox entries are in fact photos of my work. I am still building models for Estes on a limited freelance basis, by the way, but I do not expect much in the way of actual models for packaging anymore.

Barry Tunick has led Estes through many strong years, let's be fair to him in that. I still think of him as a friend as well as a former boss.

My concern is this: I am no longer contributing designs, Rocket Doctor is apparently out of favor now, I hear that John Boren is now gone (a great designer, and a true loss for Estes) and Mike Dorffler is near retirement. WHO is there with any real historical knowledge and experience to design new rockets?

A few comments on the new product for 2008...

MIRV and its smaller sibling Fracture are both single booster to multiple independent second stage rockets. The booster stage fires into a manifold that ignites three separate motors. Sort of explains the names, doesn't it?

Daedalus is indeed the Icarus. Icarus was unavailable as a name so I offered Daedalus as an alternative. If you know your mythology, Daedalus was Icarus's father and the inventor of the waxen wings that let them escape Crete.

The Lancer was the Stiletto. Or is that the other way around? I forget. Also a Shrox design, my paintwork in the photos. If anyone wants, I'm happy to explain the paint process on that one. Its complicated. A bit like the big Interceptor, a multi-stage process.

The Solar Flare was MY name choice, I created the deco and color scheme, and it was designed by John Boren. It is a traditional two-stager. Sorry, R.D., that one really didn't come from you. It was my last design contribution to Estes before I left and I am very proud of it.

I regret that I will never see Pigasus come to being.

Rougepink

The design of Solar Flare wasn't mine, just the name, which I came up with in 2005 for a unusual rocket and submitted in 2006 and it was shot down, just like the nearly 50 other designs that I did over the years. I brought this up to Mary, and, we are discussing the name. I didn't imply that the design was mine, just the name.

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 08:11 PM
I tried it at work once (working naked). It was all going fine until Barry came down, and then HE wanted to do it, and next thing you know, Estes was going NUDIST.

Rogue, as in "renegade" "maverick" and "outlaw" is the correct chosen meaning.

Remember the original Double D's that became the 36 D Squared, and, the direction that was taking until it got nixed.

Not too many know the true story behing the change over from Double D's to 36 D squared, do they???

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 08:14 PM
Was at HL today with my 40% coupon and looked at the clerance isle. They had the eggscalabur, renegade, scissor wing and the 'E' powered no pointing needed rocket i jsut cant remember its name all marked down like 30% or so... they also had some big daddy's there but they were not marked down. and they still had some in the regular place.

So not sure if these are being discontinued or just shuffling the line HL offers... though on the renegades spot it said deleted.

Thje Renegade has been discontinued as a two stage kit and is being redesigned as a single stage, chances are, a lot of kits are on the hit list.

roguepink2
04-28-2008, 08:46 PM
I recall a "Double D" that was painted fleshy pink and had NIPPLES on the fins. A bit confusing, being a long shaft-shaped thing. It was too much of a psychological mixed signal, sort of a hermaphroditic design.

...personally, I liked it in pink! ;)

So they posted an ad for my job here, eh? What happened? I don't think there's a lack of talent to fill the position.

Rocket Doctor
04-28-2008, 08:54 PM
I recall a "Double D" that was painted fleshy pink and had NIPPLES on the fins. A bit confusing, being a long shaft-shaped thing. It was too much of a psychological mixed signal, sort of a hermaphroditic design.

...personally, I liked it in pink! ;)

So they posted an ad for my job here, eh? What happened? I don't think there's a lack of talent to fill the position.

As you might know, the original Double D's was my design, with rounded fins and a pointed nose cone. They changed it to a rounded nose cone and bob like fins, minus the nips. The parachute was gong to be br shaped. They were showing off one of the six different designs at a show, then, it got nixed. Then, BT called it the 36 D Squared, as you might also remember, it was a two D clustered kit, but, I was told no more clusters!!!!

PM me with your email address I will send a photo of the original.

Your job was posted on TRF, look under postings by winins, he only posted two.

FYI I used the name Double D's referring to the two D engines, nothing else..........but, you know what happened after that.

payback for my Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine (Converter)

EchoVictor
04-28-2008, 10:19 PM
I'm shocked, because I know there were two more Shrox designs I had built and painted.

Any possibility you could share which two Shrox designs those were?

Thanks,
EV

Ltvscout
04-29-2008, 07:36 AM
Then, Scott posted your job on TRF, and, that's after BT made the comments about forums.
I did?

cas2047
04-29-2008, 07:40 AM
Now for words from someone who actually worked for Estes in Penrose, CO...

What Rocket Doctor says holds true in that Estes has made the hobby market a secondary interest. What most people don't understand is that once you get involved with WalMart, you are there for life. Its like the Mafia. Estes cannot quit WalMart without going out of business, and knowing that, WalMart can dictate product, pricing, distribution, nearly ALL aspects of business operations. This is WHY they can't go back to the hobby rocket company they once were. Estes is now FORCED to reduce cost to satisfy WalMart's buyers demands.


Sadly what you say makes a lot of sense. I've heard many stories about how Wal-Mart bullies companies into doing things their way, forcing them to jump through hoops, modify production, change tactics, all to make sure Wal-Mart customers get the product for a couple of cents cheaper.

Wal-Mart only sells a couple of starter kits, a very limited selection of launchables and maybe a couple of boxes of A, C and sometimes B engines.

They do the same thing with train kits and slot car sets. You can buy one or two types of set, but there's never anything else like extra cars, track, etc..

Here's hoping that at some point Estes breaks away from Wal-Mart and gets back to being what they should be, and this isn't looking at the world through deeply colored glasses, it's looking at things realistically and sensibly.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 07:40 AM
I did?

Wrong Scott.....Scott
Scott Winans on TRF.....,

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 07:51 AM
Check out the following

http://www.lincolninternational.com/index.php?id=343&L=4

Patent
20060272754

foose4string
04-29-2008, 09:17 AM
Here is the post over at TRF for the Estes job "opportunity" ;) that RD was referring to. Actually, it was cross posted in the "Vendors" and "Coffee House" sections.

Estes job opening "vendors" (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41868&highlight=experienced+modeler)

Estes job opening Coffee House (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41873&highlight=experienced+modeler)

Thanks for joining in the discussion Roguepink. Nice to hear from you again.

RD, can you elaborate on what Tunick said about "forums" in that product meeting. It's obvious he didn't care for the Estes forum, and we know the end result of that short lived endeavor. But, what exactly was said about the forum? And were the comments about forums in general or specifically relating to the Estes forum?

It really felt like Estes was listening when RP and RD participating in forum talk. We saw some positive results over the past year, and with the "new" designs from Shrox, it looks like another step in the right direction. I really dig the new designs and hope Shrox continues a long term relationship with the company. Yes, some good employees are gone, and some soon to be, but perhaps Shrox is the "New Hope"?

Unfortunately, the former Estes employees don't relay much hope for the company. Pity. Would have been nice for them to honor the 50th, but no skin off my back. The new Estes is what it is.

I think our numbers are stronger than what Estes may have believed they were. I'll bet they didn't expect as many Red Max's, Interceptors, and Interceptor E's to be sold in the first year, as what they did. Our hobby crowd obviously can't compete with the Walmarts and Targets of the world in terms of dollars, but I think we have made a strong statement to Estes through our words and through our purchases. I think we should all be hopeful, but realistic at the same time. Estes has a loooong way to go before they are the company we'd like them to be, but some improvement is better than none. Let's face it, they'll never be what the once were. There are a TON of vendors that have filled that niche. And....do I dare say it? Scratch building is always an option if you don't like what you see.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 09:40 AM
Here is the post over at TRF for the Estes job "opportunity" ;) that RD was referring to. Actually, it was cross posted in the "Vendors" and "Coffee House" sections.

Estes job opening "vendors" (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41868&highlight=experienced+modeler)

Estes job opening Coffee House (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41873&highlight=experienced+modeler)

Thanks for joining in the discussion Roguepink. Nice to hear from you again.

RD, can you elaborate on what Tunick said about "forums" in that product meeting. It's obvious he didn't care for the Estes forum, and we know the end result of that short lived endeavor. But, what exactly was said about the forum? And were the comments about forums in general or specifically relating to the Estes forum?

It really felt like Estes was listening when RP and RD participating in forum talk. We saw some positive results over the past year, and with the "new" designs from Shrox, it looks like another step in the right direction. I really dig the new designs and hope Shrox continues a long term relationship with the company. Yes, some good employees are gone, and some soon to be, but perhaps Shrox is the "New Hope"?

Unfortunately, the former Estes employees don't relay much hope for the company. Pity. Would have been nice for them to honor the 50th, but no skin off my back. The new Estes is what it is.

I think our numbers are stronger than what Estes may have believed they were. I'll bet they didn't expect as many Red Max's, Interceptors, and Interceptor E's to be sold in the first year, as what they did. Our hobby crowd obviously can't compete with the Walmarts and Targets of the world in terms of dollars, but I think we have made a strong statement to Estes through our words and through our purchases. I think we should all be hopeful, but realistic at the same time. Estes has a loooong way to go before they are the company we'd like them to be, but some improvement is better than none. Let's face it, they'll never be what the once were. There are a TON of vendors that have filled that niche. And....do I dare say it? Scratch building is always an option if you don't like what you see.

Nothing was siad at the new product meeting in Oct 2006 about Forums, but, what was going to come out in the near future. And, you can see, some of those ideas came to be.

The 50th anniversary was discussed, and, something was planned, that everyone would have scooped up, but, on April 6,2007, it was cancelled.

I'm not here to bad mouth Barry or anyone else at Estes, present or former.

It was my first real experience being the moderator of the Estes forum Jan - April 21,2007. We had a growing membership of about 600 at the time it was pulled down.
Haaving been in the hobby for 44 years now, and having built and flown all kinds of rockets and designed many others, I think that I was qulified to speak on behalf of the company, contrary to those there, who have NEVER built or flown a rocket.

My intentions was to be the conmduit between the company and their loyal customers, not all topics were earth shattering, but, I wanted a mix of topics and wanted everyone to let thier hair down and be themselves.

We had some really great discussions, and, I hoped that changes would be made across the board. I did meet with resistance though.

From bring badcks, short shock cords, to motors and participation in national events, my purpose was to help my fellow rocketeers.

Then, on April 21,2007, it all came to a halt, I was jsut as surprised as all of you were. No warning, the forum was being pulled down.

To summerize the reason, FEEDBACK.

I guess if you not willing to listen to your customers, good or bad, right or wrong, then I guess you retreat.

It's been a year now, and much has happened, not only for me, but for Estes as well.

Shrox is not an employee of Estes, but, has made an arrangement for his designs.

It's also the 50th anniversary of Estes-Cox as well as the NAR and for Veern and Gleda. We know that the NAR will be celebrating in July as well as Vern and gleda as part of the Sky Of Gold and Golden Scout project.

I started the concept of the Golden Scout back in 2005 for the big "E", especially since, balsa nose cones would be needed.. That was part of the "special" that was cancelled.

I'm glad that carl at s/emroc picked up on my condept and carried to where it led today. And, Vern and Gleda appreciate all those who have participated in this celebration.

I hope that I have given you some insight into what has trasnpired in the past year or so.
Once again, in no way is this a dig against Estes-Cox, any employee, past or present or the current management.

I would like to see Estes-Cox continue for the next 50 years,,,,,,,,but, who knows.

foose4string
04-29-2008, 09:55 AM
Hey Rouguepink, nice to know your around again.
Just think, 25% of us at the October new product meeting are GONE.....

And, my Shooting Star, Jump Zone, Siren, Bell X-1 and GOLD K-1 Scout didn't make it either.

Denny, Gary, Tom. John, you and I are GONE.


Then, Scott posted your job on TRF, and, that's after BT made the comments about forums.



This is where you said he made comments about forums. ;) I assumed BT meant Barry Tunick?

I re-read your post, and apparently this was after the product meeting. Sorry for the confusion.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 12:05 PM
This is where you said he made comments about forums. ;) I assumed BT meant Barry Tunick?

I re-read your post, and apparently this was after the product meeting. Sorry for the confusion.

The setting up of the forum was discussed in Oct 2006, then, after the forum was up and running and the constructive criticizm came in, by, by forum.

InFlight
04-29-2008, 12:56 PM
I find this thread very informative. There are many lessons to learn from what has been said here. My five year business plan does not include Walmart or any other mass merchant. And listening to the customer is always number one.

RD and RP, thanks for sharing.

AKPilot
04-29-2008, 02:34 PM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but from the what I'm seeing - Estes doesn't like 'hearing' what their customers have to say. Or phrased a different way, if they hear something they don't like - they simply ignore, dismiss it, or rationalize a way for not doing it?

cas2047
04-29-2008, 02:36 PM
The setting up of the forum was discussed in Oct 2006, then, after the forum was up and running and the constructive criticizm came in, by, by forum.

The Estes forum was an excellent idea and a great resource for customers, and I thought for Estes also. RD did a great job running it.

I felt that after years of ignoring their customers Estes had finally decided that they would embrace them and take a more active position in the hobby. It was a great feeling to know that Estes was moving back to it's roots. Anything was possible since the company had decided to open the doors and start talking with it's customers about what worked, what didn't, what people wanted to see, what they didn't like, etc..

Everything seemed to be going very well until one day the plug was just pulled without even a word of explanation.

To this day I'm really unhappy with Estes for how they handled that whole situation. However I think if they were to open the forums up again they would find most everyone still willing to dialogue with them, which could only make them a better company in the end.

Although after reading roguepink2's post about Wal-Mart (if true) I guess Estes may not need to or even want to receive input or suggestions from customers if they take their marching orders from the likes of Wal-Mart.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 02:51 PM
So correct me if I'm wrong, but from the what I'm seeing - Estes doesn't like 'hearing' what their customers have to say. Or phrased a different way, if they hear something they don't like - they simply ignore, dismiss it, or rationalize a way for not doing it?

I couldn't say it any better.......

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 02:56 PM
K-1 Scout 1961 - 1985
0652 Patriot 1972 - 1984 (KC-3)
1371 Star Ship
Vega 1981 - 1984
2019 Titan lll E 1989 - 1993
2176 Echo Star 2001 - 2003

AKPilot
04-29-2008, 03:20 PM
What I've never understood with anyone or any company is the ability to listen to constructive criticism. I understand that you may not like what you hear at times, but people tend to take it too personal. You can accept or reject customer comments but, if you consistently get the same feedback then the problem isn't your customer. Why take it personal or go hide in the closed (close down the forum), if you don't like what people express. For goodness sakes, people are still thinking or saying it.

Take it as an opportunity to improve and gain admiration for crying out loud.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 04:06 PM
What I've never understood with anyone or any company is the ability to listen to constructive criticism. I understand that you may not like what you hear at times, but people tend to take it too personal. You can accept or reject customer comments but, if you consistently get the same feedback then the problem isn't your customer. Why take it personal or go hide in the closed (close down the forum), if you don't like what people express. For goodness sakes, people are still thinking or saying it.

Take it as an opportunity to improve and gain admiration for crying out loud.

And, it's for the benefit of the company, and, it's loyal customers.
The member of this, or any forum, have the knowledge, there are a few exceptions of those who want to stir up the pot just for the sake of being heard and getting attention, the percentage is very small though.

The Estes forum didn't get pulled down because someone wanted to launch a teddy bear, or the talk about Quest motors, or even Aerotech motors, or the mere mention of another company.

It's all sumerized above, if you not willing to hear comments, suggestions and negative remarks, then, don't bother setting up a forum, input is not always going to be what you want, but, the bottom line is/was, it was to benefit all, not to start trouble , or talk negatively about anyone person or the company as a whole. That wasn't and isn't the intention.

Race58
04-29-2008, 04:34 PM
I have to agree here. I have been silently listening (reading ;) ) to all the comments about Estes here on this thread and in many others which talk about the attitude Estes has about their customers.

I also see where people complain about the quality of their kits with inferior parts like decals, shockcords, etc.

I agree with the criticism but what I don't understand is why folks are still buying inferior kits and then going thru a build process either here or just on their own in which they spend more time and money to upgrade the parts that come with the kit and then complain about it.

Now I'm not talking about beefing up a kit to handle bigger and stronger motors but rather the changes necessary to fly it safely on the “recommended” motors or make it look nice because Estes supplies inferior parts.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just scratch build or buy kits from manufactures that do care and include the quality parts that should be in the kit in the first place like many of the excellent vendors advertised here on this forum and others?

The way I see this is if Estes or any other company for that matter doesn't want to listen to us or participate in discussion or attend the various meets to meet/greet the customers then DONT BUY THEIR KIT’s.

In this way if we hit them in their pocket book maybe they will get the message and if not, so be it, because as I and others have said before there are a lot of kit producer’s on this forum who do listen and produce quality kit’s.

So I will start. I will not buy another "New" Estes kit until I hear that they are willing to listen to their customers.

Just my 2 pennies.

What I've never understood with anyone or any company is the ability to listen to constructive criticism. I understand that you may not like what you hear at times, but people tend to take it too personal. You can accept or reject customer comments but, if you consistently get the same feedback then the problem isn't your customer. Why take it personal or go hide in the closed (close down the forum), if you don't like what people express. For goodness sakes, people are still thinking or saying it.

Take it as an opportunity to improve and gain admiration for crying out loud.

CPMcGraw
04-29-2008, 06:11 PM
...I agree with the criticism but what I don't understand is why folks are still buying inferior kits and then going thru a build process either here or just on their own in which they spend more time and money to upgrade the parts that come with the kit and then complain about it...

Because Estes has good people working for it, because Estes occasionally surprises us with a product (or two, or three...) that actually suggests that someone is listening to us, and because we really need to show Estes that we ourselves are listening to them when they do. When Estes actually does something good, especially something exceptionally good as these Shrox kits appear to be, we need to show our support for their effort. Reward the good, criticize the bad.

...Wouldn't it make more sense to just scratch build or buy kits from manufactures that do care and include the quality parts that should be in the kit in the first place like many of the excellent vendors advertised here on this forum and others?

We already do, and I think Estes is obliged to recognize it even if they don't want to acknowledge it. I don't think Estes as a company, or as one individual within that company, can safely ignore the competition, no matter how small or otherwise insignificant it might be viewed. Trends start in the least-expected of places. If the industry as a whole begins to shift (a trend starts) to these smaller companies, Estes will be impacted.

It's not that we don't care about Estes. We do. We care about the history of the company, we care about its reputation, we care about what happens to it in ways that perhaps the current owner and officers don't fully appreciate. We don't want Estes to fail, we just want them to change their perception of the hobbyist builder-flier, such that they don't view us as their mortal enemies, but as cooperative and helpful partners who want the company to succeed as much as they do.

ScaleNut
04-29-2008, 06:15 PM
if you don't buy the kits than what will happen to the motors? will they stick more with rtf kits and mabey pare the motors down to 2 or 3 choices...?

I hate to think about it

also Vanel made a true statement"Estes IS responsive to its customers, which are not the scant few thousand NAR members/BARs across the country"
however,they have taken some steps to do the things Bars want like the interceptor , red max, more waterslides, bringbacks

there is a lack of rocket kits at Walmart no doubt , but I notice that everytime I visit WM there seem to be more and more estes/cox toys that are not rockets...they are not just a model rocket company anymore.

I wish they were.

Mark II
04-29-2008, 06:37 PM
Let me play devil's advocate for a second. Bear with me as you read this hypothetical scenario...

Here's the situation:

BT's and Estes-Cox's hands are tied. The company has entered a long-term agreement with Wal-Mart, and it is turning into a deal with the devil. E-C has to keep cutting back its design and production of new hobby-level model rocket kits, the product line that helped make its business for all these years, because the Giant From Bentonville keeps demanding MORE, MORE... And what does this "MORE" consist of? Simple and cheap to produce RTF rockets, launch sets, and rockets that feature some electronic gimmick "because that's what kids want these days." And on top of that, the Giant demands that E-C provide these to it at "rock-bottom prices."

As the cries for MORE, MORE pile up from year to year, E-C has to scramble. The "rock-bottom prices" that W-M demands cause E-C's profit margins to become razor-thin. To control costs, E-C has to quickly find a way to move the production to somewhere cheaper, and so it does what every other red-blooded All-American company has done - it moves its production to China. To cut its costs for materials, E-C starts reducing the numbers of its kits that contain die-cut balsa, water-slide decals and appropriate-length shock cords, and starts churning out kits that feature more and more molded plastic parts and shorter shock cords. To shorten the time from design to production and to further cut the costs of production, E-C starts offering more and more E2X kits, kits that don't require pages of instructions that have to be drawn up, reviewed, edited, illustrated, and then modified when something changes in the kit before it is shipped. This drive toward simplicity is also a demand of the Giant. E-C has to stop furnishing its kits with fragile water-slide decals and instead go to using die-cut vinyl decals, so that the kits are "simpler" and require fewer instructions. Every page added to the kit instructions, and even extending the instructions by one page that is to be printed on the blank side of an existing page, adds costs, and costs must be pared to the bone.

This need to drive down costs has other consequences, too. In addition to multiple rounds of layoffs, E-C has to cut every frill it can. That means no more participation in national hobby events. The Giant of Bentonville, which is now in a position to dictate Estes-Cox's product strategy to a large extent, tells BT and management to forget the hobbyists - their time has come and gone, and this is a new day and age. "Kids don't have the interest or the patience anymore to build and decorate kits; what kids today want are things that work right out of the box," the Giant bellows. And E-C has to obey. As it is being forced to gear more and more of its product strategy and production to feed the ever-hungry Giant, it has to further and further scale back its ability to produce innovative new kits for the hobby market. It also has to begin cutting specific model rocket motors from its product line, as it gears more and more of its motor production to meet the power requirements of the cheap, heavy plastic kits that it is now producing. No more B6-0. No more C5. No more C11-0. No more E9-0. The list goes on and on.

E-C is also forced to change its pricing structure as well. To offset the very slim profits, and often no profits and even some produced at a loss, of those "low rock-bottom priced" kits that are taking up so much of its production, and to be able to pay its employees, Estes-Cox has to do what every other Wal-Mart supplier has had to do: jack up its prices of everything else it sells. Its hobby customers take the biggest hit; since E-C cannot raise the prices by even a penny on all the kits it produces for W-M, it raises the prices on the kits, parts and accessories, ground support equipment, launch supplies and motors for anything not Wal-Mart-bound. The hobby market begins to take on the task of keeping the company afloat and it essentially subsidizes the rest of the company. Profits from its share make up for the razor-thin profits, and even production done at a loss, for all the products the E-C has to provide to Wal-Mart. Oh, did I say, "products made at a loss?" Yes, I did. You see, that is another classic thing that the Giant is well-known for doing to its suppliers; it forces them to provide it with some products at a loss.

Long-time employees and consultants to the company are getting ever-more concerned. "You are losing the hobby market!" they tell management. And it is true: it seems like every year a new, strong competitor enters the market. Estes-Cox absolutely cannot afford to lose this market. Let me repeat that: ESTES-COX ABSOLUTELY CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE ITS SHARE OF THE HOBBY MARKET! Why is that? As you just read above, THE HOBBY MARKET IS CARRYING THE REST OF THE COMPANY to a large extent. Yes, it's true, and it is a delicate balancing act: keeping the Giant fed while setting aside just enough production of kits and other products that are geared toward hobbyists to keep that share and to sell enough to help it pay the bills. Keeping this balancing act going puts a lot of pressure on BT, and he simply does not want to hear from old-time employees and managers that the company needs to go back to doing things like it did in the hallowed, legendary old days. "The old days are over! You have NO IDEA what this company is dealing with now!! Do you want to keep your jobs?!?"

But being the gifted CEO that he is, deep down inside, BT recognizes that his staff is right. There is a new phenomenon on the scene: the rise of the BAR. These older customers aren't so easy to satisfy; they are old enough to REMEMBER and to be nostalgic for the old days. As adults, they are much more assertive, and control much more money, than the younger part of E-C's customer base. And they are also influential! They readily organize into groups and into online forums, where they discuss and swap opinions on their satsfaction, or lack thereof, with products from Estes-Cox and its ever-growing army of competitors. And the opinions of the BARs count! Their financial power has the ability to cause big changes in the market, and as parents, they have extraordinary influence on the purchases of the younger customers. As a percentage of its total customer base, the number of these BARs is small, and they largely confine their purchases to the hobby part of Estes-Cox's product line; but remember how important sales of these hobby line products are to E-C's bottom line. And as parents, the BARs also have the ability to greatly influence the sales of the products that Estes-Cox provides to Wal-Mart!

With this in mind, BT and Estes-Cox management agree to start new production of some classic kits that are popular with BARs; the bring-backs begin. But the BAR market won't be satisfied if those kits are produced in the same manner as its mass-market products. The company has to package these bring-back kits and others geared for the BAR and hobbyist market with laser-cut balsa fins and detailed water-slide decals. BT does hold the line on the one item that he can, though: longer shock cords. It saves only a little on the cost of producing the kits, but remember that balancing act; every saving that can be made will be made. Besides, BARS are free to substitute their own shock cords at whatever length they like, and E-C management is fully aware that BARs routinely do this anyway.

Still, something more needs to be done to shore up this market. BARs and the rest of the hobbyist customer share are wondering why Estes-Cox doesn't provide them with an avenue to talk with and share their thoughts and concerns directly with management, as they can do with all of E-C's competitors. "Oh, man, does it ever end? Those BARs, those spoiled, self-centered Boomers, they expect everyone to cater to them!" [Author: It's true, too. :D ] He agrees to the setup of a customer feedback forum on the company's web site. Everything seems to be going fine at first, but soon there is trouble. Although total complaints on the customer forum are few, he can see what these BARs are talking about and requesting. From his perspective, BT is convinced that there is no way that the company can do all the things that participants on the customer forum expect. Every week the pressure from the forum increases; the moderator keeps advocating for more and more things, and BT just gets more and more frustrated. "I don't want to hear anymore customer suggestions! I don't want to hear anymore about the old days! The old days are over! You have NO IDEA what this company is dealing with now!!"

Although he realizes that the number of complaints on the customer forum are few at the time, he reasons that the longer that the forum stays open, the longer the time goes on that these customers will go making these requests, and the longer the time they think that management will be hearing them. But his hands are tied, and he cannot possibly satisfy these requests. The customer forum will soon start filling up with complaints from ever-more embittered customers as time goes on and the customers do not see the company responding to their requests. The last thing that the Estes-Cox company or any company needs is to have a customer forum on its web site that is filled with nothing but complaints about the company and its management.

And so, after five months, he shuts the forum down. His managers and the forum moderator protest, but he doesn't want to hear it. But in reality, there is nothing he can do. In large part because of the Wal-Mart deal, his hands are tied.

OK, remember that this is all just hypothetical and speculative. I make no claims that it in any way represents what happened in reality.

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 06:41 PM
I think the main issue is motors, when, your basically the only kid on the block with the "toys" then, you can basicllay do what you want.

Motors are the key here, all the other smaller compnies would be nothing if the motr source dried up.

As far as cloning kits, the Interceptor is a very popular kit, but, to be able to clone it, you need the plastic parts, who has a molding machine available to do that?

This is one of the reasons that this kit, as well as the bigger 1350 have appeared.

The decals are another issue, if you are going to do something for the least amount of money, you only get what you pay for, and, in this case, it is costing more to replace all of those shoddy decals,so , where did you save?

Also, you have to realize tradmarks, on kits and their names, there is a time frame that names and kits are tied up, and, if you overstep that, then, they will be coming after you.

Communications is the key as well, if you are not willing to listen to your loyal customers, then, don't complain if your bottom line is effected.

Too little too late, open communications, providing the kits that their customers want as well as motors .

The loyal Estes customers support the compnay, so, why doesn't the company support it's customers. It's the customer spending their hard earned money on their products that keep them going.

The only ones to suffer if Estes doesn't prosper is their employees, having dedicated themselves to their company and their jobs.

Wake up and listen, don't be so hard headed and listen to your customers.

This is the 50th anniversary, show your support for the hobby, celebrate, knowadays, it's hard to imagine any company staying in business for 50 year.

I disagree about what WalMaart has to offer, I got this from bentonville direct, they are not going to have the amount of product that we have come to know, we all know that.

WM, needs a better product mix as well as motors, I have said this over and over again, you cannot have tons of A10-3T motors sitting on your shelves, and not anything but. Usually the range goes from the A10, A8-3, passing the B's , to the C's.

So, buy a rocket at WM, slap a C motor into it, loose it, and, you have lost a customer.

It's like a revolving door, you just go knowhere.

Let's see what the conference call brings tomorrow.

Race58
04-29-2008, 06:46 PM
I want Estes to succeed too!! I am also know that they have some good people working there.
The point I was trying to make was about the kits that are actually packaged with inferior parts, yet no response to it.
Also the other issue I have is that they don't come to rocket events, meets, etc. to show their wares and support for the model rocket community and they shut down the one thing that has direct contact to people like us,,,, The Estes Forum. :confused:

I still stand by my statement about not buying kits until those things change because that seems to be the only form of protest they have left us with. I know that it won’t change overnight but communication would be a start. Maybe AKPilot’s conversation with BT Wed. might change that,,,we’ll see.

Because Estes has good people working for it, because Estes occasionally surprises us with a product (or two, or three...) that actually suggests that someone is listening to us, and because we really need to show Estes that we ourselves are listening to them when they do. When Estes actually does something good, especially something exceptionally good as these Shrox kits appear to be, we need to show our support for their effort. Reward the good, criticize the bad.



We already do, and I think Estes is obliged to recognize it even if they don't want to acknowledge it. I don't think Estes as a company, or as one individual within that company, can safely ignore the competition, no matter how small or otherwise insignificant it might be viewed. Trends start in the least-expected of places. If the industry as a whole begins to shift (a trend starts) to these smaller companies, Estes will be impacted.

It's not that we don't care about Estes. We do. We care about the history of the company, we care about its reputation, we care about what happens to it in ways that perhaps the current owner and officers don't fully appreciate. We don't want Estes to fail, we just want them to change their perception of the hobbyist builder-flier, such that they don't view us as their mortal enemies, but as cooperative and helpful partners who want the company to succeed as much as they do.

Mark II
04-29-2008, 06:58 PM
I just remembered something. A couple of months ago, I was in one of the Wal-Marts in my area. In the toy section, where the meager Estes products are displayed, were shelves and shelves of silver-foil and GOLD-FOIL RTF rockets from Estes. I forgot what they were called but there were so many, that Wal-Mart had set up another display of them on one of the displays in the middle of the aisle. What was that all about?

ADDENDUM: They were all approximately the size and shape of Wizards.

ADDENDUM 2: The color of the "gold" ones was more yellow-ish than what gold should look like. Kind of like yellow brass. All were shiny metallic, like the Metallizer.

Mark

Race58
04-29-2008, 07:01 PM
But,,,,, That still goes back to shutting the door and not listening to needs of all their customers not just the Walmarts of the world.
You can't handle problems by sticking your head in the sand until they go away because eventually they will,,,the customers that is.
Ed
Let me play devil's advocate for a second. Bear with me as you read this hypothetical scenario...

Here's the situation:




OK, remember that this is all just hypothetical and speculative. I make no claims that it in any way represents what happened in reality.

Mark

Mark II
04-29-2008, 07:07 PM
But,,,,, That still goes back to shutting the door and not listening to needs of all their customers not just the Walmarts of the world.
You can't handle problems by sticking your head in the sand until they go away because eventually they will,,,the customers that is.
Ed
I agree. I was just playing Devil's Advocate there, and trying to imagine a rationale from Estes-Cox's perspective for the things that happened. It was purely speculative, though, and in all likelihood, doesn't square with what actually happened. But I have heard and have seen plenty of reports that describe Wal-Mart acting toward its suppliers in just that way. The post doesn't represent my own thoughts on what should be done.

Mark

ScaleNut
04-29-2008, 07:08 PM
But being the gifted CEO that he is, deep down inside, BT recognizes that his staff is right. There is a new phenomenon on the scene: the rise of the BAR. These older customers aren't so easy to satisfy; they are old enough to REMEMBER and to be nostalgic for the old days. As adults, they are much more assertive, and control much more money, than the younger part of E-C's customer base. And they are also influential! They readily organize into groups and into online forums, where they discuss and swap opinions on their satsfaction, or lack thereof, with products from Estes-Cox and its ever-growing army of competitors. And the opinions of the BARs count! Their financial power has the ability to cause big changes in the market, and as parents, they have extraordinary influence on the purchases of the younger customers. As a percentage of its total customer base, the number of these BARs is small, and they largely confine their purchases to the hobby part of Estes-Cox's product line; but remember how important sales of these hobby line products are to E-C's bottom line. And as parents, the BARs also have the ability to greatly influence the sales of the products that Estes-Cox provides to Wal-Mart!

I don't think the "hobby line " rockets are the bottom line for estes/ cox

I would venture to say that Motors are estes bottom line(as rocketry goes) and that they sell more now than ever , thanks to their "competition"

if they were so desperate to save costs , than why would they allow anybody to freely copy and sell everything they have done over the last 50 yrs?

........... simple ,more motor sold.... the Bars can get their " good old days" rockets from any number of sources , or scratch build from their plans posted everywhere.

they probably feel that the Bars are covered, so they concentrate on selling motors and quick simple rockets to put them in. It's a business

ScaleNut
04-29-2008, 07:14 PM
also keep in mind that estes can package over 50,000 kits per week. I found a manufactures site that made the newest packaging machines for estes and it clearly stated that these machines would bring their capabilitys to 54,000 per week.(back in 2003) if this is correct, I doubt that Bars are the bottom line.

text from the article

Autobag® SPrintTM Doubles Production


The Autobag SPrint system has helped Estes Industries Inc., to increase throughput by 100%, in the packaging of kits of parts for its model rockets.

The two SPrint systems at Estes are operated on a 9-hour shift, 6 days a week, producing on average more than 54,000 kits per week. They have replaced the previous packing method where 8 employees were hand bagging and sealing kits of rocket parts, at a rate of 600 finished kits per hour.

Since the installation of the SPrint systems, Estes Industries has maintained labor requirements, using 4 operators per machine, but has dramatically increased throughput to 1200 kits per hour.

“We purchased the Sprint bagging systems to provide a solution to the labor shortages we face in this area,” explains Harry Nachtigall, Industrial Engineer, of Estes Industries. “Our products are sold worldwide and we must adhere to strict production schedules to ensure we meet growing volume requirements.”

Each bagged kit typically comprises 12 parts. The majority of the kits are packaged in clear polyethylene bags, however Estes also produces rocket kits in attractively printed retail bag for hobby and model outlets.

One of the key benefits of the SPrint system for Estes Industries is the ease of setup and flexibility of the system, enabling fast and easy changeover between bag sizes and rocket kit components. “The SPrint systems have proved extremely flexible and cost effective, enabling us to make significant improvements in production throughput while minimizing labor requirements,” says Harry Nachtigall. “Furthermore, the reliability of the systems has proved to be particularly outstanding.”

He continues, “Since the Sprint systems were installed, we have received excellent support from APS, including a thorough operator training program during startup that has enabled us to run the machines virtually unaided since they started running.”



do people still think that the hobbyist are their main income? at those rates?

CaninoBD
04-29-2008, 07:33 PM
There has been a lot of bemoaning here saying the Estes doesn’t listen to their customers, because they do not implement lot of the things that get mention here. They point to cheap construction and to short shock cord, blah, blah, blah.

But if we really looked at the life span of the typical Estes rocket, I would guess it wouldn’t be more then 5 flights. This is because the typical Estes customer will fly it on a too small field, use too big of a motor, etc. Even if it survived day of launching, it probably be destroyed while playing smash up with it or stuff into a over filled closet and crushed. The typical Estes rocket sale is one and done. The customer has move on to the next cool exciting thing. O, maybe they buy another in a year or two and do it again.

We really need to face the fact that rocketry to the average Estes customer isn’t a hobby, it a days outing. Why do you need to make the rocket sturdy or strong to last more flights, because the customer isn’t going to keep it that long. Model rockets are basically disposable, use a couple of times, have some fun and throw it away. Why waste the extra expense to make a rocket to last 100 flights, when you know it never going to make it that long. That how the has been for a long time. I am sure if we put a truth-o-meter Vern Estes, he would have to say the typical Estes sale was a 1 time thing even in his day.

Some people are saying they are going to lose a customer because of a crappie product. They know they weren’t going to keep them as a customer anyway, and their product will out last the customers boredom factor with rockets.

Before you go dismissing this out of hand, all you people who proudly use BAR, means you too disposed of the hobby at some point in your life, probably more then once. So don’t say Estes doesn’t listen to there customers, they do, they listen the majority of them. They listen to the ones with the real buying power.

There isn’t even 1000 people on YORF and out of them, maybe 200 active ones? It’s a grain of sand in the beach of Estes sales.

It all about the numbers.

roguepink2
04-29-2008, 07:35 PM
Mark II is dead on right. Hypothetical in nature, but it is a very nice piece of insight and is absolutely right.

Moral of the story: NEVER GET INVOLVED WITH WAL-MART. Short run success, the only cost is your soul.

cas2047
04-29-2008, 07:59 PM
It's not that we don't care about Estes. We do. We care about the history of the company, we care about its reputation, we care about what happens to it in ways that perhaps the current owner and officers don't fully appreciate. We don't want Estes to fail, we just want them to change their perception of the hobbyist builder-flier, such that they don't view us as their mortal enemies, but as cooperative and helpful partners who want the company to succeed as much as they do.

I agree 100 percent. Spot On and Well Said!

AKPilot
04-29-2008, 08:06 PM
You know, between undergrad and graduate business work - I learned the most I ever could about how to run a business from a family in Naples Italy that owns Antica Pizzeria Port’Alba (Antica Pizzeria Port'Alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza#The_pizza_and_Naples) ) - renowned to be the first pizzeria. Their family has owned the placed for well over a centruy

I frequented the place quite often and got to know the owner fairly well. His place has absolutely fantastic food, and puts any Americanized Italian food to shame. Anyhow, it's a small hole in the wall. But, I asked the owner why with such fantastic food he didn't expand out or got a bigger place. He laughed and quipped something about me being such an American - always wanting more (in this case more money).

He told me: "We enjoy our life and live comfortably. Why would I want more? If I had something bigger or another restaurant I'd work harder and longer. Why would I want that? I have good hours, I do well, and my family is happy."

I was quite humbled to say the least and he taught me a very important lesson in life. Some things are far more important than gross profits and satisfying a Board of Directors.

BTW, how long has this pizzeria been in business, compared to how long have most Fortune 500 companies have been?

Mark II
04-29-2008, 08:41 PM
Because Estes has good people working for it, because Estes occasionally surprises us with a product (or two, or three...) that actually suggests that someone is listening to us, and because we really need to show Estes that we ourselves are listening to them when they do. When Estes actually does something good, especially something exceptionally good as these Shrox kits appear to be, we need to show our support for their effort. Reward the good, criticize the bad.

[...]
It's not that we don't care about Estes. We do. We care about the history of the company, we care about its reputation, we care about what happens to it in ways that perhaps the current owner and officers don't fully appreciate. We don't want Estes to fail, we just want them to change their perception of the hobbyist builder-flier, such that they don't view us as their mortal enemies, but as cooperative and helpful partners who want the company to succeed as much as they do.
I have been spending a lot of time lately on this specific thread, and yesterday, it got me wondering: why do I care that much? As I said in a post the other day, my feelings toward the company are complicated. My feelings range from elation to satisfaction to frustration and disappointment.

At various times in this and other threads I have said things that are very supportive of the company, and have also said things that are highly critical. Keep in mind that I am talking about the present-day company.

Why do I experience all of these emotions toward this one model rocket company? It is totally different with every other rocketry company that I can think of; for all of them, my feelings are quite simple (and uniformly positive). I do feel especially close to and very loyal to some companies, but I am positively inclined toward all of them. No other company, though, can infuriate me like Estes can.

Why is that? Why are my feelings toward Estes so different? The simple answer is: I don't know. But I would sure like to figure it out.

Oh, and one more thing: I can't speak for anyone else, but I stopped flying rockets as a kid not because I lost interest, but because at that particular point in my life, I lacked the time and the money. I NEVER lost interest in rocketry, and when I could, I came right back to it like it was an old friend. I may have only been an active rocketeer for a grand total of about 10 years, but I have been keenly interested in rocketry for 47 years, ever since that morning when I was late for school because I stayed home to watch Alan Shepard take that ride.

Mark

barone
04-29-2008, 08:49 PM
You know, I said it once before in this thread, let me say it again. Man, those are some pretty nice kits coming from Estes this year. And, I didn't just waste that comment here. I sent an e-mail to Estes Customer Service and let them know as well. Sometimes, when a customer lets a company know when they are doing things right, they listen more attentively......sometimes. :rolleyes:

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-29-2008, 09:18 PM
I have been spending a lot of time lately on this specific thread, and yesterday, it got me wondering: why do I care that much?

Because Estes was the big dog of the hobby when you discovered it? Because you'd like to see them be something of what they once were?

Royatl
04-29-2008, 09:23 PM
I just remembered something. A couple of months ago, I was in one of the Wal-Marts in my area. In the toy section, where the meager Estes products are displayed, were shelves and shelves of silver-foil and GOLD-FOIL RTF rockets from Estes. I forgot what they were called but there were so many, that Wal-Mart had set up another display of them on one of the displays in the middle of the aisle. What was that all about?

ADDENDUM: They were all approximately the size and shape of Wizards.

ADDENDUM 2: The color of the "gold" ones was more yellow-ish than what gold should look like. Kind of like yellow brass. All were shiny metallic, like the Metallizer.

Mark

If they were set up in the center of the isle, then it was something that WalMart did. Or rather, something WalMart told Estes to do. They did the same a couple of years ago with SnapShot and MaxTrax.

I forget the names, but the two you are talking about were basically Alpha III fin units, and the long Centuri-style BT-50 nose, all plated gold and silver, and constructed with hot glue by essentially slave labor in China. Cool looking, but ultimately cheap and throwaway.

Mark II
04-29-2008, 09:23 PM
You know, I said it once before in this thread, let me say it again. Man, those are some pretty nice kits coming from Estes this year. And, I didn't just waste that comment here. I sent an e-mail to Estes Customer Service and let them know as well. Sometimes, when a customer lets a company know when they are doing things right, they listen more attentively......sometimes. :rolleyes:
According to what RD said, there were plenty of positive comments posted on the Estes customer forum, too, and Estes shut it down anyway.

I said in one post earlier in this thread, that one day (soon) I would like to see a thread concerning new Estes products that doesn't include a lot of posts expressing frustration with the company in general. I do agree with you that it is valuable and useful to recognize when a company does good. The new kits that were revealed on the Tower Hobbies web site are certainly examples of Estes doing good in my book.

All we are doing is talking on this forum; no one is organizing a nasty letter campaign to Estes Customer Relations or a boycott of the company. We are talking to our fellow rocketeers, sharing observations and opinions and doing a little venting. Nothing more.

Mark

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 09:33 PM
also keep in mind that estes can package over 50,000 kits per week. I found a manufactures site that made the newest packaging machines for estes and it clearly stated that these machines would bring their capabilitys to 54,000 per week.(back in 2003) if this is correct, I doubt that Bars are the bottom line.

text from the article

Autobag® SPrintTM Doubles Production


The Autobag SPrint system has helped Estes Industries Inc., to increase throughput by 100%, in the packaging of kits of parts for its model rockets.

The two SPrint systems at Estes are operated on a 9-hour shift, 6 days a week, producing on average more than 54,000 kits per week. They have replaced the previous packing method where 8 employees were hand bagging and sealing kits of rocket parts, at a rate of 600 finished kits per hour.

Since the installation of the SPrint systems, Estes Industries has maintained labor requirements, using 4 operators per machine, but has dramatically increased throughput to 1200 kits per hour.

“We purchased the Sprint bagging systems to provide a solution to the labor shortages we face in this area,” explains Harry Nachtigall, Industrial Engineer, of Estes Industries. “Our products are sold worldwide and we must adhere to strict production schedules to ensure we meet growing volume requirements.”

Each bagged kit typically comprises 12 parts. The majority of the kits are packaged in clear polyethylene bags, however Estes also produces rocket kits in attractively printed retail bag for hobby and model outlets.

One of the key benefits of the SPrint system for Estes Industries is the ease of setup and flexibility of the system, enabling fast and easy changeover between bag sizes and rocket kit components. “The SPrint systems have proved extremely flexible and cost effective, enabling us to make significant improvements in production throughput while minimizing labor requirements,” says Harry Nachtigall. “Furthermore, the reliability of the systems has proved to be particularly outstanding.”

He continues, “Since the Sprint systems were installed, we have received excellent support from APS, including a thorough operator training program during startup that has enabled us to run the machines virtually unaided since they started running.”



do people still think that the hobbyist are their main income? at those rates?

This information on the bagging machine has been around for a long time, it's not current info.

There kit production has fallen off greatly.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 09:39 PM
According to what RD said, there were plenty of positive comments posted on the Estes customer forum, too, and Estes shut it down anyway.

I said in one post earlier in this thread, that one day (soon) I would like to see a thread concerning new Estes products that doesn't include a lot of posts expressing frustration with the company in general. I do agree with you that it is valuable and useful to recognize when a company does good. The new kits that were revealed on the Tower Hobbies web site are certainly examples of Estes doing good in my book.

All we are doing is talking on this forum; no one is organizing a nasty letter campaign to Estes Customer Relations or a boycott of the company. We are talking to our fellow rocketeers, sharing observations and opinions and doing a little venting. Nothing more.

Mark

The Shrox kits were brought up and discussed going back to 2006, now, two years later, they finally come out?

There have been many topics discussed on the former Estes forum, both positive and negative.

Being open to feedback is the key, and, when you don't want to hear the facts/truth, then, you shut it down!!!!!

Once again, the discussions here are not to attack anyone, or Estes, it is the colmination of thoughts and ideas from a year ago. In a years time, you would think significant changes would have been made, such as simple as the shock cords. Warranty cost must be up, with the problems with the X-15, decals, air rockets, motors.

We all have to agree, by just listening to customer feedback will imporve the bottom line.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 09:45 PM
I don't think the "hobby line " rockets are the bottom line for estes/ cox

I would venture to say that Motors are estes bottom line(as rocketry goes) and that they sell more now than ever , thanks to their "competition"

if they were so desperate to save costs , than why would they allow anybody to freely copy and sell everything they have done over the last 50 yrs?

........... simple ,more motor sold.... the Bars can get their " good old days" rockets from any number of sources , or scratch build from their plans posted everywhere.

they probably feel that the Bars are covered, so they concentrate on selling motors and quick simple rockets to put them in. It's a business

If a kit or name is trademarked and someone tries to profit from that, Estes will come after you.

Motors are a big business, as I have said before, when your the only kid on the block with "toys" then, you can do whatever you want.

Things aren't so "rosey" right now anyway.......fill in the blanks.

poke44
04-29-2008, 09:53 PM
So do we have an availability date for when these new rockets are for sale?

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 10:13 PM
There has been a lot of bemoaning here saying the Estes doesn’t listen to their customers, because they do not implement lot of the things that get mention here. They point to cheap construction and to short shock cord, blah, blah, blah.

But if we really looked at the life span of the typical Estes rocket, I would guess it wouldn’t be more then 5 flights. This is because the typical Estes customer will fly it on a too small field, use too big of a motor, etc. Even if it survived day of launching, it probably be destroyed while playing smash up with it or stuff into a over filled closet and crushed. The typical Estes rocket sale is one and done. The customer has move on to the next cool exciting thing. O, maybe they buy another in a year or two and do it again.

We really need to face the fact that rocketry to the average Estes customer isn’t a hobby, it a days outing. Why do you need to make the rocket sturdy or strong to last more flights, because the customer isn’t going to keep it that long. Model rockets are basically disposable, use a couple of times, have some fun and throw it away. Why waste the extra expense to make a rocket to last 100 flights, when you know it never going to make it that long. That how the has been for a long time. I am sure if we put a truth-o-meter Vern Estes, he would have to say the typical Estes sale was a 1 time thing even in his day.

Some people are saying they are going to lose a customer because of a crappie product. They know they weren’t going to keep them as a customer anyway, and their product will out last the customers boredom factor with rockets.

Before you go dismissing this out of hand, all you people who proudly use BAR, means you too disposed of the hobby at some point in your life, probably more then once. So don’t say Estes doesn’t listen to there customers, they do, they listen the majority of them. They listen to the ones with the real buying power.

There isn’t even 1000 people on YORF and out of them, maybe 200 active ones? It’s a grain of sand in the beach of Estes sales.

It all about the numbers.

Wrong,wrong and wrong again. They don't listen, who is going to pay big bucks for throw-a-way rockets? That's just plain nuts.

You wan't stay in buiness if you don't have a quality products that going to last and that gives you value for your buks.

All of the discussions here are from seasoned rocketeers, who, know what they are taling about.

Yes, BAR's are those who have left the hobby and have come back, and, probably for good reasons, like a family, military service, and jobs.

At least they have come back when their situations allowed it, but, when your in business, you cannot be a BAR, or, you will soon be out of business.

There are a few of us who have seen it from both sides, involement with the company, eeither as a employee or consultant, and, as a fellow rocketeer, At least we can say that we have actually built and flown the product !!!

Companies today need to listen to their loyal customers, or, they will soon be out of business. Without their customer base, a company has nothing.

The commnets presented here are the opinions of many individuals. Just becasue the numbers aren't in the thousands, doesn't mean that they mean nothing.

When companmies do focus groups. they do it with small groups, diverse groups, they could not possible have thousand of particpants, that ridiculous.

All you need is a small group that has used the products for many years and are very knowledgeable of the product and how it works. Giving input to a company on a potential problem is an asset to that company.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 10:15 PM
So do we have an availability date for when these new rockets are for sale?

Well, the way things are going, we don't even have a catalog out yet, let alone kits, it was first in March, then April and hopefully in May.

My guess would be, if you see the kits by Oct or Nov, then, they are doing good.

CaninoBD
04-29-2008, 10:37 PM
Wrong,wrong and wrong again. They don't listen, who is going to pay big bucks for throw-a-way rockets? That's just plain nuts.

You wan't stay in buiness if you don't have a quality products that going to last and that gives you value for your buks.


I not sure where the who is going to pay big bucks for throw-a-way rockets comment came from. The market for big bucks rocket has got to be infinitesimally small.

Look at the lighter business, yes you can go out and buy a fine high quality works every time Zippo lighter that cost a lot, but how many of them do they sell? Bic on the other hands sell millions of cheap inexpensive lighters, If they break, or you lose them, no biggie, you pick up another. Estes just sell Bic rockets, that what sells the most. That is there marketing model.

Rocket Doctor
04-29-2008, 10:54 PM
I not sure where the who is going to pay big bucks for throw-a-way rockets comment came from. The market for big bucks rocket has got to be infinitesimally small.

Look at the lighter business, yes you can go out and buy a fine high quality works every time Zippo lighter that cost a lot, but how many of them do they sell? Bic on the other hands sell millions of cheap inexpensive lighters, If they break, or you lose them, no biggie, you pick up another. Estes just sell Bic rockets, that what sells the most. That is there marking model.

Why should anyone pay $18.00 and up for a so called "throw away" rocket. If you want a throw away rocket, you need only to have your own crude basic parts and pop in an engine, that, would be your throw away rocket.

You have to expect to get more than a handful of flights from your rockets. If you really want to have a thorw away, just buy any kit at WM, put in a C motor and say goodbye.

Let's be real here, a customer expects to get more than they do for what they are paying. Why should anyone pay $32.00 plus for a launch controller and the same amout for a pad. Would you consider these throw aways?

Why would you also pay $11.00 for a launch rod, when you can buy a piece of piano wire for $2.50.

A family with children cannot affort these so called throw aways, and, expect only limited use out of them.

Knowasays, with the recession upon us, families are looking for value and an afforable price. If yuoou don't get your monies worth, then, you won't sell a product, another lost sale, lost sales add up, and eventually, you no longer have a company.

I would strongly suggest that you start at the beginning of this thread and read all the psts, then, you just might change your thoughts.

CaninoBD
04-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Why should anyone pay $18.00 and up for a so called "throw away" rocket. If you want a throw away rocket, you nedd only to have your own crude basic parts and pop in an engine, that, would be your throw away rocket.

You have to expect to get more than a handful of flights from your rockets. If you really want to have a thorw away, just buy any kit at WM, put in a C motor and say goodbye.

Let's be real here, a customer expects to get more than they do for what they are paying. Why should anyone pay $32.00 plus for a launch controller and the same amout for a pad. Would you consider these throw aways?

Why would you also pay $11.00 for a launch rod, when you can buy a piece of piano wire for $2.50.

A family with children cannot affort these so called throw aways, and, expect only limited use out of them.

Knowasays, with the recession upon us, families are looking for value and an afforable price. If yuoou don't get your monies worth, then, you won't sell a product, another lost sale, lost sales add up, and eventually, you no longer have a company.

I would strongly suggest that you start at the beginning of this thread and read all the psts, then, you just might change your thoughts.


Why do you think Estes sells mostly starter kits with everything included? because people like getting everything all in one shot. I don't have to look around for parts from here and there. Yes, we as a people are that lazy. Why would people pay extra for pre chopped food when they can buy it cheaper and chop it yourself, yet look at the supermarket, prepared food is everywhere, why? Because people pay for the convenience.

You can go to wally world and for $30 get a starter set and some motors and the kids have a couple of hours of fun ant that is it. The kids have lost interest already. That is their days entertainment. That $30 is still cheaper then if they sent them to the movies or bought them a new $60 video game that they lost interest in a day or two or the $150 sneakers that they not wearing next week.

Yes I have read the whole thread, an no I haven’t changed my mind.

Race58
04-30-2008, 01:32 AM
Very nicely put, Mark.
For me and like you and unlike CaninoBD puts it I did not "Dispose of the hobby" nor did I want to leave it. I was quite simply trying to raise 5 kids and worked 3 jobs to do it. I did spend as much time as I could building and flying rockets with my kids until the time was just not available to continue. Now I'm back into it and am trying to get as many of my 13 grandkids that want to involved in the hobby.
I am sure others did like I did and had no choice but we most certainly DID NOT "DISPOSE OF THE HOBBY"!
I have been spending a lot of time lately on this specific thread, and yesterday, it got me wondering: why do I care that much? As I said in a post the other day, my feelings toward the company are complicated. My feelings range from elation to satisfaction to frustration and disappointment.

At various times in this and other threads I have said things that are very supportive of the company, and have also said things that are highly critical. Keep in mind that I am talking about the present-day company.

Why do I experience all of these emotions toward this one model rocket company? It is totally different with every other rocketry company that I can think of; for all of them, my feelings are quite simple (and uniformly positive). I do feel especially close to and very loyal to some companies, but I am positively inclined toward all of them. No other company, though, can infuriate me like Estes can.

Why is that? Why are my feelings toward Estes so different? The simple answer is: I don't know. But I would sure like to figure it out.

Oh, and one more thing: I can't speak for anyone else, but I stopped flying rockets as a kid not because I lost interest, but because at that particular point in my life, I lacked the time and the money. I NEVER lost interest in rocketry, and when I could, I came right back to it like it was an old friend. I may have only been an active rocketeer for a grand total of about 10 years, but I have been keenly interested in rocketry for 47 years, ever since that morning when I was late for school because I stayed home to watch Alan Shepard take that ride.

Mark

Race58
04-30-2008, 01:36 AM
What you said! :)
Because Estes was the big dog of the hobby when you discovered it? Because you'd like to see them be something of what they once were?

Race58
04-30-2008, 01:41 AM
I will wait and see how those kits come out. That is when we actually see them in stores and in the catalog., Maybe you got a point there Don,,, I sure hope so.You know, I said it once before in this thread, let me say it again. Man, those are some pretty nice kits coming from Estes this year. And, I didn't just waste that comment here. I sent an e-mail to Estes Customer Service and let them know as well. Sometimes, when a customer lets a company know when they are doing things right, they listen more attentively......sometimes. :rolleyes:

Rocket Doctor
04-30-2008, 06:10 AM
Why do you think Estes sells mostly starter kits with everything included? because people like getting everything all in one shot. I don't have to look around for parts from here and there. Yes, we as a people are that lazy. Why would people pay extra for pre chopped food when they can buy it cheaper and chop it yourself, yet look at the supermarket, prepared food is everywhere, why? Because people pay for the convenience.

You can go to wally world and for $30 get a starter set and some motors and the kids have a couple of hours of fun ant that is it. The kids have lost interest already. That is their days entertainment. That $30 is still cheaper then if they sent them to the movies or bought them a new $60 video game that they lost interest in a day or two or the $150 sneakers that they not wearing next week.

Yes I have read the whole thread, an no I haven’t changed my mind.

I blame the parents for buying all the high tech fancy gadgets and using those as babysitters.

If you personally want to spend the bucks and have a very limited experience in the hobby, that's your business. But, from what I have read here and what we discussed on the former Estes forum, families are building and luanching rockets, and, staying with the hobby. Parents and grandparents alike are getting involed with their children , a precious experience.

If you go to WalMaart, you can pick up a launchable starter set fo $19.97 and a pack of motors for $4.97, but, what kind of selection do they offer, the same old stuff, day in and day out. There is knowone there who knows the product, not even the managers, let me tell you, I have done it all, written to Bentonville, spoke to not only one store manager, but two and even spoke to the district distribution manager.

You cannot offer the same kits and not expect to loose customers, and, their motor selection leaves a lot to be desired.,

The whole idea about getting your kids, and yourself into a worthwhile hobby is that it's fun and educational, you cannot learn anything with a cell phone plasterd to your ear, or, go roaming on the internet, just getting yourself into trouble as has been done by children on my space.

Parents should be involved with their children, and work together, not to dole out money so they can go to the movies, buy overpriced sneaker and the such.

I know your dead set in your thoughts, but, in my opinion, your wrong.

The hobby hasn't existed for 50 years now by selling throw aways. But, I guess the current customer want "INSTANT GRATIFICATION' by offering RTF's, slapping a motor into it and loosing it, then, another one "bites the dust". You have lost a potential long time customer.

Money is tight now, and, parents need to watch were they spend their hard earned dollars, the days of the $150 per pair sneaker might be over. And, those expensive sneaker are being made in Vietnam (nike) for pennies on the dollar, and, us Americans need them and are willing to pay the price just to stay in style.

The problem being ,we WANT something, not we NEED something. This is why the average credit card balance is in the thousands of dollars.

And to give you alittle insight into WalMart policy, if you happen to catch the informative piece on CNBC about the practices of WM, WM dictates to their suppliers as to how much WM will pay the supplier for their products, if your not willing to sell to WM at their DICTATED prices, then, your out, you don't have a chance to get your products into WM.

So, if WM is selling motors for $4.97 per pack, just think as to how much WM has paid for that pack of motors, that price is almost half you would pay anywhere else.

How can any hobby shop compete at those prices, I'm sure hobby shops are paying the $4.97 for the same pack of motors and then they have to mark them up, just to stay in business. At least hobby shops care about their customers.

The same hold true with the "company" you need to listen to your customers, and, not to take it persoanlly and walk away from your bread and butter.

As I have stated over and over again, it's the 50th anniversary of the hobby, it will never be the same as it once was back in 1958 - 1969, it's unfortunate, back then, the mangement of the "company" took a personal interest into their loyal customers, not so today.

There's more going on today than what meets the eye, just stay tuned an see how all this plays out.

This is my opinion, and, you have the right to yours as well.

cas2047
04-30-2008, 08:04 AM
Why do you think Estes sells mostly starter kits with everything included? because people like getting everything all in one shot. I don't have to look around for parts from here and there. Yes, we as a people are that lazy. Why would people pay extra for pre chopped food when they can buy it cheaper and chop it yourself, yet look at the supermarket, prepared food is everywhere, why? Because people pay for the convenience.

You can go to wally world and for $30 get a starter set and some motors and the kids have a couple of hours of fun ant that is it. The kids have lost interest already. That is their days entertainment. That $30 is still cheaper then if they sent them to the movies or bought them a new $60 video game that they lost interest in a day or two or the $150 sneakers that they not wearing next week.

Yes I have read the whole thread, an no I haven’t changed my mind.

I disagree with your line of reasoning CaninoBD.

Many smart parents see the harm that video game and television babysitting causes to their kids both mentally and physically. More and more smart parents are limiting the time kids are spending with both mediums. More and more kids are finding that they have to fill that gap with other activities and model rocketry can be one of them.

Your argument lumps everyone into one group, claiming that everyone wants instant gratification. That's inacurate. Some people like instant gratification, some don't. Some people like rocket starter sets some don't. There are others that will start with a starter set and then move on to more complex kits and aspects of the hobby. Everyone is not the same.

The fact that Wal-Mart sells starter sets and plastic junk is not a reflection of what model rocketry enthusiasts are asking for. It's how Wal-Mart make fast money with little or no effort on their part. It does not reflect the needs and wants of model rocketry enthusiasts across the country. Hobby enthusiasts can obtain their kits and components from any number of other places, many of them online, just as easily as traveling to their nearest Wal-Mart, and they do that every day.

It sounds as if you think that as Wal-Mart sales go so goes the wants and needs of America. That's just not so. I rarely shop there and not many of my friends do either. Wal-Mart doesn't dictate my life or the things that I purchase. Sadly it does dictate too much (but not all) of what Estes produces. That needs to change if Estes is to get back to where it once was.

gpoehlein
04-30-2008, 08:40 AM
So, if WM is selling motors for $4.97 per pack, just think as to how much WM has paid for that pack of motors, that price is almost half you would pay anywhere else.

How can any hobby shop compete at those prices, I'm sure hobby shops are paying the $4.97 for the same pack of motors and then they have to mark them up, just to stay in business. At least hobby shops care about their customers.


(In best WC Fields voice) "We lose 50 cents on every piece, but we'll make it back in volume!" ;)

Greg

AKPilot
04-30-2008, 08:49 AM
I sent an e-mail to Estes Customer Service and let them know as well. Sometimes, when a customer lets a company know when they are doing things right, they listen more attentively

If you only listen to the positive, in any situation, you're only getting part of the story. If you listen to, what I term, constructive dissatisfaction - you have greater opportunities to perform better. Let's face it, some of the best lessons you learn in life aren't from your successes.

Arley Davis
04-30-2008, 09:04 AM
There have been so many replays to this thread that I can not keep it straight. But anyway there was someone that mentioned that the Interceptor can not be cloned because of the plastic parts and that’s not true. I personally cloned this rocket just over a year ago, and I dare anyone to see the difference from the original rocket, see below.

In fact over 90% of rockets in the past can be cloned, It’s the ones with body wraps and difficult or impossible to mold plastic parts that can not be cloned. For example the NASA rockets, F-61 clear plastic parts, the Rigel 3 Nose cone among others.

As for the interceptor here is were I got what I needed to clone the rocket.

The instructions from JimZ!
http://www.dars.org/jimz/rp00.htm

The plastic Parts from Moldin’ Oldies!
http://www.moldinoldies.com/OldSite/futuristic_rocket.htm

Decals from Tanga Papa!
http://www.tangopapadecals.com/

Most of the parts in a large shipment from Balsa Machining Service and local Hobby stores.
http://www.balsamachining.com/

The round tooth pikes that were used for the 2 antennas, from a grocery store.

One more thing before I close has anyone checked to find out if the newer kits that are made in China have Lead Based Paint?

roguepink2
04-30-2008, 09:20 AM
So after 3+ years working at Estes, I am back at my favorite old hobby store in St. Louis.

That's HobbyTown USA on Manchester Rd, Town and Country, Missouri. I'm there Wed, Thurs nights and all day Sunday.

Between those two areas of work, I see several things happening. WalMart does carry Estes rockets, but CAN NOT offer any technical support. They sell the motors far cheaper than HobbyTown can, true, but I sell plenty of motors. People ask me why they should pay so much more at my store. "Because you get ME and I am worth it." is my answer. You would be amazed how well that works as a selling point!

Okay, here's a point I have about how to reinvigorate the hobby: MARKETING. Have you ever seen a TV spot on Saturday morning for Estes rockets? Has HobbyTown USA ever done a national corporate marketing campaign? But we have WalMart blitzing us every day with "rollbacks" and "low everyday prices." EXPOSURE, boys and girls.

I'm dismayed at how often I get a customer that says, "I didn't know you were here, I didn't know they still make this stuff."

I hope I'm not rambling, I'm a bit distracted today.

AKPilot
04-30-2008, 09:47 AM
So after 3+ years working at Estes, I am back at my favorite old hobby store in St. Louis.

That's HobbyTown USA on Manchester Rd, Town and Country, Missouri. I'm there Wed, Thurs nights and all day Sunday.


So what you need to do know is to convince Hobby Town USA to carry Fliskits and Semroc. Fliskits is a supplier with HobbyTown, check the HT catalog. He worked long and hard to get in with them at their national convention. Also, you need to get the HT in O'Fallong up to speed, they're pathetic when it comes to knowledge.

As for my favorite, I'll stick with Mark Twain in St. Charles. Howver, I can't convince them (either could Jim Flis) to carry anything other than Estes. Oh well, they take care of my r/c needs.

InFlight
04-30-2008, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by roguepink2
...Okay, here's a point I have about how to reinvigorate the hobby: MARKETING. Have you ever seen a TV spot on Saturday morning for Estes rockets? Has HobbyTown USA ever done a national corporate marketing campaign? But we have WalMart blitzing us every day with "rollbacks" and "low everyday prices." EXPOSURE, boys and girls.
I have always wondered why Estes or Quest has never ran a commercial on TV for their rocket kits. :confused:

I got involved with model rockets in the mid 70's because i had watched a couple of kids launch some rockets off in a school parking lot, they had six open acres behind the school. I raced home on my bike and asked my Dad if we could build and fly some rockets. He said hell yeah, so we went to the local HS and he dropped 100 bucks for a starter set, motors and a few kits for himself. Seeing a commercial on TV could have the same effect. :cool:

Rocket Doctor
04-30-2008, 10:43 AM
There have been so many replays to this thread that I can not keep it straight. But anyway there was someone that mentioned that the Interceptor can not be cloned because of the plastic parts and that’s not true. I personally cloned this rocket just over a year ago, and I dare anyone to see the difference from the original rocket, see below.

In fact over 90% of rockets in the past can be cloned, It’s the ones with body wraps and difficult or impossible to mold plastic parts that can not be cloned. For example the NASA rockets, F-61 clear plastic parts, the Rigel 3 Nose cone among others.

As for the interceptor here is were I got what I needed to clone the rocket.

The instructions from JimZ!
http://www.dars.org/jimz/rp00.htm

The plastic Parts from Moldin’ Oldies!
http://www.moldinoldies.com/OldSite/futuristic_rocket.htm

Decals from Tanga Papa!
http://www.tangopapadecals.com/

Most of the parts in a large shipment from Balsa Machining Service and local Hobby stores.
http://www.balsamachining.com/

The round tooth pikes that were used for the 2 antennas, from a grocery store.

One more thing before I close has anyone checked to find out if the newer kits that are made in China have Lead Based Paint?

I made that comment, becasue that was the jist that I got from listening to others about how difficult it was to build a clone of the Inteerceptor.

Isn't it easier to just have a kit, without having to go to so many sources for parts and paying a premium for them?

JRThro
04-30-2008, 11:24 AM
We all have to agree, by just listening to customer feedback will imporve the bottom line.
I don't have to agree with that at all. Listening to customer feedback might lead to production of products that the customers like, but it won't necessarily improve the bottom line.

CaninoBD
04-30-2008, 11:44 AM
I don't have to agree with that at all. Listening to customer feedback might lead to production of products that the customers like, but it won't necessarily improve the bottom line.
B I N G O !

cas2047
04-30-2008, 11:53 AM
B I N G O !

Darn! I was waiting on G-14. :mad: I NEVER win! ;)

Mikus
04-30-2008, 11:59 AM
But anyway there was someone that mentioned that the Interceptor can not be cloned because of the plastic parts and that’s not true.


LOL, it would appear nobody has been able to clone it for at least a year.

'After some reflection, I decided that it was time for me close the doors of "Moldin' Oldies"'


You also failed to mention how much it cost you in time, money and effort to do so. :p


Just saying.... :eek:

sandman
04-30-2008, 12:18 PM
I cloned mine back in 1997 after meeting JimZ and he made the decals.

All of the parts are balsa...no plastic at all!

Note, no panel lines on the nose cone.

Arley Davis
04-30-2008, 12:20 PM
It was expensive put worth it for me to clone, put a lot cheaper than piddling on ebay for the Estes Interceptor. Also at that time there was no way of knowing that Estes was going to re-release the kit, with plastic Antennas.

K.M.Knox
04-30-2008, 12:24 PM
Ahh, but not all of us have guru skills like you with balsa Sandman :D

And how about the new kits that Estes is slated to release? I hear they are pretty sweet and a nice change to some of the latest offerings (not counting the re-releases that is). Can't wait 'till they hit the shelves. :cool:

Arley Davis
04-30-2008, 12:31 PM
I also cloned the Estes Mars Snooper, Centuri Quasar, along with others, and they were expensive as will, but worth it to build a Clasic rocket from the past.

Shreadvector
04-30-2008, 12:40 PM
Estes TV commercial? Why, YES I have seen them. On TV. IIRC they were shown in the afterschool time period. Tag line" "Get a life, Get a rocket"

not on youtube.....

Cool promotional videos were made for many products. I loved the rocket car video since it had a great soundtrack with the Speed Racer techno mix ("Go Speed Go") by Alpha Team (Alpha, how cool is that?).

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Speed-Alpha-Team/dp/B000002VYT


So after 3+ years working at Estes, I am back at my favorite old hobby store in St. Louis.

That's HobbyTown USA on Manchester Rd, Town and Country, Missouri. I'm there Wed, Thurs nights and all day Sunday.

Between those two areas of work, I see several things happening. WalMart does carry Estes rockets, but CAN NOT offer any technical support. They sell the motors far cheaper than HobbyTown can, true, but I sell plenty of motors. People ask me why they should pay so much more at my store. "Because you get ME and I am worth it." is my answer. You would be amazed how well that works as a selling point!

Okay, here's a point I have about how to reinvigorate the hobby: MARKETING. Have you ever seen a TV spot on Saturday morning for Estes rockets? Has HobbyTown USA ever done a national corporate marketing campaign? But we have WalMart blitzing us every day with "rollbacks" and "low everyday prices." EXPOSURE, boys and girls.

I'm dismayed at how often I get a customer that says, "I didn't know you were here, I didn't know they still make this stuff."

I hope I'm not rambling, I'm a bit distracted today.

foose4string
04-30-2008, 02:04 PM
.

And to give you alittle insight into WalMart policy, if you happen to catch the informative piece on CNBC about the practices of WM, WM dictates to their suppliers as to how much WM will pay the supplier for their products, if your not willing to sell to WM at their DICTATED prices, then, your out, you don't have a chance to get your products into WM.

So, if WM is selling motors for $4.97 per pack, just think as to how much WM has paid for that pack of motors, that price is almost half you would pay anywhere else.

How can any hobby shop compete at those prices, I'm sure hobby shops are paying the $4.97 for the same pack of motors and then they have to mark them up, just to stay in business. At least hobby shops care about their customers.




Looks like those $4.97 a pack days are over. I paid $6.97 today. I knew the price increase was inevitable... but 40%???? I guess that more or less puts them in line with everyone else. Looks like the big, bad, bully didn't press the issue with this one. It was pretty common knowledge that Estes raised prices on motors a while back. I'm sure WM is still profiting from this this newest price increase, but you can bet it was spawned by Estes and the current, uncontrollable, rate of inflation we have been facing recently.

JRThro
04-30-2008, 02:32 PM
Looks like those $4.97 a pack days are over. I paid $6.97 today. I knew the price increase was inevitable... but 40%???? I guess that more or less puts them in line with everyone else. Looks like the big, bad, bully didn't press the issue with this one. It was pretty common knowledge that Estes raised prices on motors a while back. I'm sure WM is still profiting from this this newest price increase, but you can bet it was spawned by Estes and the current, uncontrollable, rate of inflation we have been facing recently.
As I said over on TRF (and boy, I love posting the same thing twice! ;) ), my local Target still has Estes motors for $4.99 or so, but with an extremely limited selection.

Rocket Doctor
04-30-2008, 03:59 PM
I don't have to agree with that at all. Listening to customer feedback might lead to production of products that the customers like, but it won't necessarily improve the bottom line.

Shock cords that are too short.

Decals that are not printed correctly.

Decals that fall apart.

Not attending national events.

A catalog that is late in coming out.

Not celebrating the 50th anniveresary of your company.

Contcentrating on mass merchandisers.

Forgetting about hobby shops.

Over priced spare parts.

X-15 that was defective.

Not bringing back motors that are needed, such as the B6-0 and other lower power boosters.

JRThro
04-30-2008, 04:32 PM
Shock cords that are too short.

Decals that are not printed correctly.

Decals that fall apart.

Not attending national events.

A catalog that is late in coming out.

Not celebrating the 50th anniveresary of your company.

Contcentrating on mass merchandisers.

Forgetting about hobby shops.

Over priced spare parts.

X-15 that was defective.

Not bringing back motors that are needed, such as the B6-0 and other lower power boosters.
Those are all bad things, but what do they have to do with my comment that you quoted?

dwmzmm
04-30-2008, 07:51 PM
As I said over on TRF (and boy, I love posting the same thing twice! ;) ), my local Target still has Estes motors for $4.99 or so, but with an extremely limited selection.

Which Target?

Rocket Doctor
04-30-2008, 08:40 PM
Those are all bad things, but what do they have to do with my comment that you quoted?


These are topics that need to be addressed, left over from the estes forum days, and, changes were supposed to have been made, and haven't in a year.

The forum was there to be a conduit between rocketeers and the company, and, if there was a problem area, it was to be addressed.

Mark II
05-01-2008, 06:05 PM
Honestly, I really DID intend to stop posting to this thread. And I will, after this.

So after 3+ years working at Estes, I am back at my favorite old hobby store in St. Louis.

That's HobbyTown USA on Manchester Rd, Town and Country, Missouri. I'm there Wed, Thurs nights and all day Sunday.

Between those two areas of work, I see several things happening. WalMart does carry Estes rockets, but CAN NOT offer any technical support. They sell the motors far cheaper than HobbyTown can, true, but I sell plenty of motors. People ask me why they should pay so much more at my store. "Because you get ME and I am worth it." is my answer. You would be amazed how well that works as a selling point!
That answer would certainly draw me in! I would make sure to do my hobby shopping at that particular store and on those days! Except for the fact that it would be a 1,058 mile (and 18 hour) drive each way for me. Bummer. I do agree with your point about the marketing (or lack of), though. How does anyone know that you even have a product if you keep it a secret?

So what you need to do know is to convince Hobby Town USA to carry Fliskits and Semroc. Fliskits is a supplier with HobbyTown, check the HT catalog. He worked long and hard to get in with them at their national convention. Also, you need to get the HT in O'Fallong up to speed, they're pathetic when it comes to knowledge.
I know that AKPilot meant this for RP, so I should just MMOB. But I'll butt in, anyway. I'm confused by what you are saying here. I thought that Hobbytown USA did carry FlisKits kits. :confused:

Mark

foose4string
05-01-2008, 10:26 PM
I know that AKPilot meant this for RP, so I should just MMOB. But I'll butt in, anyway. I'm confused by what you are saying here. I thought that Hobbytown USA did carry FlisKits kits. :confused:

Mark

Some do. Not all do. Hobbytowns are franchises and usually independently owned and operated. Also, Fliskits doesn't distribute through the " normal " large hobby distributors, so it's a matter of the owner or manager of each Hobbytown to contact Fliskits directly. Understandably, you have to invest a little initially to get Fliskits in the door at wholesale costs.

chronister
05-02-2008, 07:55 AM
Does anyone know how to put a ping-pong ball onto a body tube like that? Do you just drill a 1" diameter hole in it? I'm curious to see how they make the octagonal body tube on the MIRV. Balsa?

Arley Davis
05-02-2008, 12:20 PM
About 2 to 3 years ago FlisKits had a promotion if you got a local Hobby Town to carry there kits you get a 15% off coupon. Will here in Omaha Nebraska, I talked the Manager of one of the stores into carrying FlisKits.

When I visited the store a couple of months ago, I was told because of low sales volume they have discontinued distributing any new products for FlisKits once the current supply was sold.

Mikus
05-02-2008, 02:30 PM
I'm curious to see how they make the octagonal body tube on the MIRV. Balsa?

It might be a plastic shell that goes around the outside of the body tube, like the Estes Stealth.

Estes Stealth (http://www.dars.org/JimZ/est1929.htm)

Mark II
05-02-2008, 03:56 PM
Does anyone know how to put a ping-pong ball onto a body tube like that? Do you just drill a 1" diameter hole in it?
Check out this review of FlisKits' Alien8 (http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/kits/flis_alien8.shtml) on EMRR (http://www.rocketreviews.com/emrr2008.shtml) (Essence's Model Rocketry Reviews). The Alien8 was also designed by Shrox, and it, too, features a wrap-around dome that is simulated with a ping-pong ball. Ping-pong balls are a detail that is used in many Shrox designs, and must be considered to be one of his signature touches. In the first review, the author (Joe Policy) describes how the ping-pong balls are attached to the design.

By the way, I highly recommend that you add EMRR to your bookmarks list; it is a well-maintained site that is brimming with useful information about model rocketry and high powered rocketry. It features kit, motor and equipment reviews, a section on tips and techniques, a rocket glossary, a selection of online design tools, and more. The reviews and tips are written by many of the same people who post to YORF and TRF; I've even written one (http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/kits/aaw_18mm_turbo_delta.shtml)! (Take your time with that one, though. Like my forum posts, it is overly long and wordy. :rolleyes: ) Also, there is always at least one contest ongoing at the site; enter and you could win a prize. :cool: Check it out!

Mark

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-02-2008, 04:47 PM
Does anyone know how to put a ping-pong ball onto a body tube like that? Do you just drill a 1" diameter hole in it? I'm curious to see how they make the octagonal body tube on the MIRV. Balsa?

You put the end of the body tube onto the ping pong ball, then trace a circle around it. Cut that out, then put the tube into the hole, making sure it is kept straight. Trace the tube outline on the other side of the ball, then cut that out. Take your time, use a sharp blade, and don't try to make big cuts and you'll be fine. Any small imperfections will be covered by the glue, so don't sweat perfection.

roguepink2
05-04-2008, 06:10 PM
The Estes version will be a two-piece plastic part with the hole already placed. Another change is the little "antenna" on the bottom near the nose. The Estes version will be a detailed plastic piece.

Tau Zero
05-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Hey. Present-day Estes came out with the X-Prize series of kits. They brought back the Interceptor and came out with the Interceptor E. They brought back the Der Red Max. They are bringing out some kits by Shrox. Etc.

They obviously manufacture things that even hardcore BARs like and enjoy building and flying.

If people want to do nothing but complain about the present-day Estes company, they're free to do so. I'm sure the company is absolutely nothing like the way it was back in the '60's, '70's, and '80's. But frankly, not much else is the way it used to be, and I think a lot of you guys are viewing the past through *deeply* rose-colored glasses.Vern sold his company in the late 1960s. That was almost 40 years ago.

(chuckling) In recent years, have you visited the town where you grew up? If so, there's a *lot* of things that have changed... some of them *drastically.*

David Byrne of the Talking Heads said he had a lot of people ask him when he was going to "get the band back together." He said, "It's like people saying, 'You divorced your wife 10 years ago. Don't you think it's time the two of you got remarried?'"

In an attempt to be objective, I have to agree with John. Admit that Estes isn't what it was, and live your life from there. (I suppose it's easier for me to deal with changes, since Centuri "...is no more! It has ceased to be!" :eek: ;) )


Model rocketry is still a *lot* of fun, guys! Let's keep that in mind, okay?And *this* is the point that I have to come back to, time after time.

So go have fun instead of grousing!


Cheers, and good luck,

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-05-2008, 12:51 AM
The Estes version will be a two-piece plastic part with the hole already placed. Another change is the little "antenna" on the bottom near the nose. The Estes version will be a detailed plastic piece.

Never thought about that possibility, but it makes sense.

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-05-2008, 12:53 AM
Vern sold his company in the late 1960s. That was almost 40 years ago.

(chuckling) In recent years, have you visited the town where you grew up? If so, there's a *lot* of things that have changed... some of them *drastically.*


Yep, they're building the first ghetto as we speak. :( On what used to be a pretty little horse farm.


So go have fun instead of grousing!



Is that anything like snipe hunting?

poke44
05-05-2008, 12:15 PM
There are real snipe... just an FYI

tasty animals :D

K.M.Knox
05-12-2008, 09:21 PM
Well I was curious about the new kits for '08 so I emailed Estes to see what they would say. Christine sent me a email stating the new catalog would be available mid June and did not elaborate.

dwmzmm
05-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Well I was curious about the new kits for '08 so I emailed Estes to see what they would say. Christine sent me a email stating the new catalog would be available mid June and did not elaborate.

Well, at least she's more specific in her message to you; when I e-mailed last month for
a 2008 catalog, she just said I'll get one in the mail "when it comes out."

Mark II
05-13-2008, 02:01 AM
Well, at least she's more specific in her message to you; when I e-mailed last month for
a 2008 catalog, she just said I'll get one in the mail "when it comes out."
So, can we then say that looking for the 2008 Estes catalog is like hunting for that elusive snipe? :eek: :D

Mark

pantherjon
05-13-2008, 08:08 AM
So, can we then say that looking for the 2008 Estes catalog is like hunting for that elusive snipe? :eek: :D

Mark
Beginning to sound more and more like it! So, new catalog to come out in June, half the year past by, announcing new kits.When should we expect them to be hitting the retail chain? August? September? Then it would be time to start thinking about 2009.....

AKPilot
05-13-2008, 08:37 AM
Well I was curious about the new kits for '08 so I emailed Estes to see what they would say. Christine sent me a email stating the new catalog would be available mid June and did not elaborate.

Go figure . . . I wonder if it's too late to have "2009" printed on the catalog?

On a positive note, Christine, bar none, exhibits the best customer service in any company, in any industry. If I was to ever start a business, of any sort, she'd be my top priority as a candidate for Customer Service!!!

Mikus
05-13-2008, 02:26 PM
Well I was curious about the new kits for '08 so I emailed Estes to see what they would say. Christine sent me a email stating the new catalog would be available mid June and did not elaborate.

On their website, Belleville Hobbies says: "The 2008 Estes Catalog will be available on June 10, 2008. We will post it as soon as it is available."

ghrocketman
05-13-2008, 03:24 PM
Even back in the "good old days" the Estes catalog always seemed way late for each year compared to other goods.
In the hobby shops you never got the catalogs until about Late Feb/Early Mar for the year printed on the cover.
I thought this was stupid back then and even more stupid now as all the products are now made in China, they would have to plan them FAR in advance of any produced here; the only logical reason is POOR planning.
Most all other goods would put out a catalog for the next year BEFORE the year changed.

June 08 for a 2008 catalog ?
Why even freakin' bother ?

tbzep
05-13-2008, 05:23 PM
It all balances out. We get 2009 model automobiles in mid 2008, half a year early. We get our Estes catalogs a half a year late.....and the actual products will be even later. :rolleyes:

Mark II
05-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Even back in the "good old days" the Estes catalog always seemed way late for each year compared to other goods.
In the hobby shops you never got the catalogs until about Late Feb/Early Mar for the year printed on the cover.
I thought this was stupid back then and even more stupid now as all the products are now made in China, they would have to plan them FAR in advance of any produced here; the only logical reason is POOR planning.
Most all other goods would put out a catalog for the next year BEFORE the year changed.

June 08 for a 2008 catalog ?
Why even freakin' bother ?
It really doesn't matter to me when in the year Estes sends out the catalog (and what year they put on it), as long as they send out the next one within 12 months after the last one, and they make sure that the information in the catalog is accurate at the time it is sent out.

Mark

dwmzmm
05-13-2008, 07:35 PM
Maybe they're going to call this the "Estes Summer '08" catalog.....

Mikus
05-14-2008, 08:41 AM
Maybe their fiscal year starts mid-calendar year?

Yeah I know, even so that is a bonehead marketing move but, well... let's observe certain recent actions. ;)

Any ex-employees remember when Estes' FY starts?

AKPilot
05-14-2008, 09:44 AM
Wouldn't be as bad, had they not said, "March", no "April, no "May", no "June"

Shreadvector
05-14-2008, 09:50 AM
Wouldn't be as bad, had they not said, "March", no "April, no "May", no "June"

I'm reminded of the famous quote from Kelly Bundy......

Royatl
05-14-2008, 10:40 AM
For some reason I remember the late 60s' early 70's catalogs coming out in the fall. I could be mistaken about that. There was definitely a delay with either the 68 or 69 catalogs such that they had to put out a xeroxed thumbnail copy (sometimes you'll see those up for sale on ebay).

JRThro
05-14-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm reminded of the famous quote from Kelly Bundy......
For those of us not as familiar with "Married... with Children," what was that quote?

Shreadvector
05-14-2008, 10:56 AM
For those of us not as familiar with "Married... with Children," what was that quote?

The character of Kelly Bundy was famous for mangling common or famous expressions.

Someone said something to her, and she replied with "Yeah, right…and the check is in my mouth".

Since it was good enough for the Fox primetime TV "standards" folks, it must be good enough for this moderated group.

Initiator001
05-14-2008, 11:57 AM
For some reason I remember the late 60s' early 70's catalogs coming out in the fall. I could be mistaken about that. There was definitely a delay with either the 68 or 69 catalogs such that they had to put out a xeroxed thumbnail copy (sometimes you'll see those up for sale on ebay).

I remember receiving the 1969, 1970 & 1971 Estess catalogs in September by US Mail.

That made the beginning of a new school year easier to take. ;)

Bob

Royatl
05-14-2008, 01:25 PM
I remember receiving the 1969, 1970 & 1971 Estess catalogs in September by US Mail.

That made the beginning of a new school year easier to take. ;)

Bob

Yea, the '70 catalog (first to mention Damon) had to have come out well after Sept --Dec of '69, when the deal was done.

Rocket Doctor
05-14-2008, 01:44 PM
Go figure . . . I wonder if it's too late to have "2009" printed on the catalog?

On a positive note, Christine, bar none, exhibits the best customer service in any company, in any industry. If I was to ever start a business, of any sort, she'd be my top priority as a candidate for Customer Service!!!

They could place a label over 2008 and put 2009 with a price sticker of $2.00 as well.

pantherjon
05-15-2008, 01:00 AM
Even tho we gripe at their tardiness, let us not ignore that they ARE releasing some new cool stuff this year! I am looking forward to them 'hitting the street' and building them..;)

Rocket Doctor
05-16-2008, 10:57 AM
Even tho we gripe at their tardiness, let us not ignore that they ARE releasing some new cool stuff this year! I am looking forward to them 'hitting the street' and building them..;)

Just because the catalog comes out, doesn't mean the kits will be available> Usually, the catalog creates demand, and, eventually, the kits are available.
It happened last year with the Red max and the two Interceptor kits.

AKPilot
05-16-2008, 11:12 AM
Just because the catalog comes out, doesn't mean the kits will be available> Usually, the catalog creates demand, and, eventually, the kits are available.
It happened last year with the Red max and the two Interceptor kits.

R.D. are you saying, from personal experience, that Estes publishes a catalog with kits that have yet to be manufacturered in masse? Is this why we've seen kits never make it to the store floor?

Mikus
05-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Just because the catalog comes out, doesn't mean the kits will be available> Usually, the catalog creates demand, and, eventually, the kits are available.
It happened last year with the Red max and the two Interceptor kits.

I don't believe those 3 were in the 2007 catalog were they?

AC Supply has the Interceptor E listed as new for 2008.

AC Supply - look in the left side of the screen (http://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/eseries.htm)

ghrocketman
05-16-2008, 12:31 PM
It is ridiculous to show an item as available in a catalogue
1) before it is available to be ordered
and
2) before it has even been decided it will definitely be produced.

Based on the model of MIS-management that Estes has become under BT's much-LESS-than-stellar tutelage, this does not surprise me that the farce of a company that bears Vern & Gleda's good name is doing this.

The amount of bet-hedging that goes on in business today is ridiculous.
Back in the good old days, you took a risk with a new idea, sometimes you made a profit and YES, sometimes you HAD TO EAT A LOSS, period.

Nowadays every owner, stock holder and board of directors has the totally UNREALISTIC expectation constant growth in sales and profits with zero losses that looks like a 45 degree linear climbing curve....guess what ? IT AIN'T SO; git over it. The important thing is NOT the short-term junk that knee-jerk reactionary wall street looks at; dips in the sales curve are okay as long as a positive profit remains flat or slightly climbing over the LONG term.

moonzero2
05-16-2008, 12:38 PM
I don't believe those 3 were in the 2007 catalog were they?

AC Supply has the Interceptor E listed as new for 2008.

AC Supply - look in the left side of the screen (http://www.acsupplyco.com/estes/eseries.htm)
The Red Max is in the 2007 catalog but not the Interceptors.
I was so happy they brought back the Intercepor.
And then a bold move to make a new Interceptor E ! WOW! :D

Rocket Doctor
05-17-2008, 12:19 PM
R.D. are you saying, from personal experience, that Estes publishes a catalog with kits that have yet to be manufacturered in masse? Is this why we've seen kits never make it to the store floor?

First of all, the red Max was not supposed to be in the 2007 catalog. When the estes forum was up and running, I wanted to "reveal" several kits to the Forum members and got shot down. Someone, made a mistake and it was put into the catalog.

Usually,m the new rockets kits were introduced in Oct just before the holiday season, then, kits were being relaesed at anytime. So, you couldn't put new kits in the catalog if the catalog was released, so, it was word of moluth or on web sites that kits were introduced.

For example, going back a few years, there was a rocket that was going to be released that went along with Buzz Aldrins books, the name excapes me now. Prototypes were made, and all intentions to release the kit, but, that never happened.

There has been prototypes made, photographed with the intention of coming out, put into the catalog and never came out.

On the other hand, there has been kits that have come out and never made it to any catalog pages.

Also, there has been "exclusives" that have been produced and never put into a catalog or anywhere else.

My Deluxe Super Shot Screw Machine was an WalMart exclusive at first, and, eventually packaged for hobby shops.

Kay Bee had two exclusives the Gold Strike and the Silver Strike, never in any catalog and only available at Kay Bee.

If you were to go through dcatalogs over the years you will find examples of other rockets that were in print but never produced, there aren't a lot of them, but, they do exist.

Estes also produced water glider rockets and tried their hand at air rockets to go against Air Hogs, only a few were produced.

For the most part "sell sheets" are handed out to retailers telling them what is coming out, one of the best placed to find out about new kits are on web sites such as AC Supply.

Initiator001
05-19-2008, 02:05 AM
e-Hobbies has an image of another new Estes kit for 2008.

It is the Super Neon XL, an up-scale of the Super Neon kit. The 'XL' is BT-60 diameter and 38" long. Flies on D12 & E9 motors. Available in June.

http://www.ehobbies.com/est2425.html

There is, also, a better image of the Solar Flare kit with more details: BT-50 diameter, 27" long, TWO stage (?!).

http://www.ehobbies.com/est2400.html

Bob

Royatl
05-19-2008, 02:34 AM
e-Hobbies has an image of another new Estes kit for 2008.

It is the Super Neon XL, an up-scale of the Super Neon kit. The 'XL' is BT-60 diameter and 38" long. Flies on D12 & E9 motors. Available in June.

http://www.ehobbies.com/est2425.html

There is, also, a better image of the Solar Flare kit with more details: BT-50 diameter, 27" long, TWO stage (?!).

http://www.ehobbies.com/est2400.html

Bob


and the upper stage is a 13mm!!! obviously to take advantage of the a10's big throat.

Shreadvector
05-19-2008, 08:04 AM
I want a kit, not a "Launch Set".:(

JRThro
05-19-2008, 08:05 AM
There is, also, a better image of the Solar Flare kit with more details: BT-50 diameter, 27" long, TWO stage (?!).

http://www.ehobbies.com/est2400.html

Bob
But man, why is the list price for the Solar Flare $46.99? It's a two stage BT-50 rocket!

Shreadvector
05-19-2008, 08:36 AM
But man, why is the list price for the Solar Flare $46.99? It's a two stage BT-50 rocket!

Because that is *NOT* the price of the Solar Flare. It is the price of the Solar Flare Launch Set.

Now re-read my message just above your message.....;)

Ltvscout
06-07-2008, 03:39 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed that the Solar Flare uses a B6-0? I don't think Estes is going to make you buy a bulk pack to fly that rocket. ;)

Also, there's a picture on Tower Hobbies showing the new color scheme for the Mongoose:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTZN4&P=D

dwmzmm
06-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed that the Solar Flare uses a B6-0? I don't think Estes is going to make you buy a bulk pack to fly that rocket. ;)

Also, there's a picture on Tower Hobbies showing the new color scheme for the Mongoose:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTZN4&P=D

When I was at the Maker's Faire in Austin last October, I was told that Estes/Wal-Mart
were going to have a RTF 24 mm (D12) powered model available, so, if true, that means
Wal-Mart would have to stock D12's. Of course, time will tell.... :rolleyes:

Mark II
06-07-2008, 04:36 PM
I'm not sure if it was discussed in this thread or another one, but I just took another look at the archive of kit plans and product instructions on the Estes website. Awhile ago, somewhere in this forum the point had been made that the information on this page was in a random, disorganized pile, making it difficult to locate a specific item without having to scroll through the entire list. I am pleased to report that the list of plans and instructions has been reorganized and the files are now are listed in ascending order by kit number, starting with the #0657 (Citation Series) Bomarc. The listing utilizes kit numbers in the file name for organization, but not all of the filenames contain a number (although it looks like most do). Unnumbered kits are listed following the last numbered kit (#84476 Bandit E2X), and they are organized alphabetically by filename (which corresponds to the kit or product instructions name). The K-numbered kits are in the middle of this alphabetical listing, in between "impulse.pdf" and "long john silver.pdf". I spotted one minor inconsistency - "nike x.pdf" is listed in the middle of the K-numbered kits, but otherwise this is a much-needed improvement over the earlier way of listing the files, and it should enhance the usefulness of this page at the website.

The list of instructions can be found at the www.estesrockets.com (http://www.estesrockets.com) website. Click on the Customer Service button on the red navigation bar on the left hand side of the page, and then click on thr Instructions button.

Mark \\.

Rocket Doctor
06-07-2008, 05:08 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed that the Solar Flare uses a B6-0? I don't think Estes is going to make you buy a bulk pack to fly that rocket. ;)

Also, there's a picture on Tower Hobbies showing the new color scheme for the Mongoose:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTZN4&P=D

Discussed in another thread was the fact that B6-0's aren't available in the educator bulk packs.

I guess if only C boosters are only available, you will probably loose your rocket and have to biy another.

Ltvscout
06-07-2008, 05:14 PM
Discussed in another thread was the fact that B6-0's aren't available in the educator bulk packs.
Hmm, Tower Hobbies and eHobbies have them. Two large retailers/wholesaler.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXF438&P=D

http://www.ehobbies.com/est1784.html

Mark II
06-08-2008, 01:03 AM
When I was at the Maker's Faire in Austin last October, I was told that Estes/Wal-Mart
were going to have a RTF 24 mm (D12) powered model available, so, if true, that means
Wal-Mart would have to stock D12's. Of course, time will tell.... :rolleyes:
Just because it is an RTF, it doesn't mean that Wal-Mart will carry it.

Mark \\.

Mark II
06-08-2008, 01:05 AM
Hasn't anyone noticed that the Solar Flare uses a B6-0? I don't think Estes is going to make you buy a bulk pack to fly that rocket. ;)

Also, there's a picture on Tower Hobbies showing the new color scheme for the Mongoose:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTZN4&P=D
In the 2007 Estes catalog, one of the recommended engines for the Snitch is a B6-0.

Mark \\.

Initiator001
06-08-2008, 02:37 AM
Also, there's a picture on Tower Hobbies showing the new color scheme for the Mongoose:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTZN4&P=D

Looks like the scheme that was used for the Eliminator.

Say what you want, but it is an improvement over the original yellow and pink color scheme (YEEECH!). :D

Bob

dwmzmm
06-08-2008, 08:52 AM
Just because it is an RTF, it doesn't mean that Wal-Mart will carry it.

Mark \\.

That may be true, but I'm simply repeating what I was told by one of the Estes representative on site; Wal-Mart's name was specifically mentioned. The D12's were
to be sold in two motors to a pack, but will probably still be cheaper than what they
cost through other vendors.

Royatl
06-08-2008, 11:04 AM
That may be true, but I'm simply repeating what I was told by one of the Estes representative on site; Wal-Mart's name was specifically mentioned. The D12's were
to be sold in two motors to a pack, but will probably still be cheaper than what they
cost through other vendors.

IIRC, the D12-3s that were available from WalMart during the Great Dude Scare were 2 to a pack, mainly to fit in the same spaces as the A and C motors.

tbzep
06-08-2008, 11:21 AM
IIRC, the D12-3s that were available from WalMart during the Great Dude Scare were 2 to a pack, mainly to fit in the same spaces as the A and C motors.

That's correct. I got several packs on clearance for $0.50 a pack a while back.

dwmzmm
06-08-2008, 11:29 AM
That's correct. I got several packs on clearance for $0.50 a pack a while back.


Wow, $0.50 a pack?! That probably doesn't even pay for the cardboard casing nowadays! :D

tbzep
06-08-2008, 11:38 AM
Wow, $0.50 a pack?! That probably doesn't even pay for the cardboard casing nowadays! :D

I was happy. The best part....my wife found them and bought them for me. :cool:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/clearance.jpg

dwmzmm
06-08-2008, 11:41 AM
I was happy. The best part....my wife found them and bought them for me. :cool:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y283/tbzep/Rockets/clearance.jpg

Wow (again)!! That's almost a real steal!! Wish my wife could do the same for me! :(
That should last you a long time. How long ago was this?

tbzep
06-08-2008, 11:56 AM
It's been a few years. There were several packs of C6-7's and 1/4A mini-motors in there, which I don't use often. That's one reason I started playing with making 1/4A boosters.

There also were A8-3's, B6-4's, B4-4's and a bunch of A10-3T's in addition to the D12-3's. That proves that at least one Walmart used to sell more than C6-7's and A10-PT's. :rolleyes:

dwmzmm
06-08-2008, 12:03 PM
It's been a few years. There were several packs of C6-7's and 1/4A mini-motors in there, which I don't use often. That's one reason I started playing with making 1/4A boosters.

There also were A8-3's, B6-4's, B4-4's and a bunch of A10-3T's in addition to the D12-3's. That proves that at least one Walmart used to sell more than C6-7's and A10-PT's. :rolleyes:


A brand new Wal-Mart that just opened a few weeks ago (only about a mile from my house)
has the A10-3T, A8-3, C6-3, C6-5 amd C6-7 priced $4.97 per pack. I have bought B6-4's and
B4-4's at another nearby Wal-Mart in the past.

Rocket Doctor
06-08-2008, 06:16 PM
Hmm, Tower Hobbies and eHobbies have them. Two large retailers/wholesaler.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXF438&P=D

http://www.ehobbies.com/est1784.html

If you contact estes, they how no clue about bulk packs containing B6-0's ????