Estes Classic Series!!!

[Early Starts]

http://www.estesrockets.com/classicflyer.pdf

Sorry, I just noticed that this has already been posted.

[Jerry Irvine]

After reading the current brochure and the list of prospective kits, all I can say is I can't wait for the Egg Crate, Mini-Dactyl, and UFO, but the Phoenix Bird caption amuses me to no bean counter end. A8-3 first flight my a$$!!

How about F67-14?!

Rerelease the Enerjet 1340, 2250 and 2650!!! I promise to pay double. Or better yet order in pallet lots.

Just "exclusive scoop at YORF" Jerry :D

[Royatl]

After reading the current brochure and the list of prospective kits, all I can say is I can't wait for the Egg Crate, Mini-Dactyl, and UFO, but the Phoenix Bird caption amuses me to no bean counter end. A8-3 first flight my a$$!!

How about F67-14?!

Rerelease the Enerjet 1340, 2250 and 2650!!! I promise to pay double. Or better yet order in pallet lots.

Just "exclusive scoop at YORF" Jerry :D


Yes Jerry, but note that's NOT the Phoenix Bird you think it is. Apparently they're doing it all in BT-55 and balsa! (of course, with a good finish it will probably be a bit lighter and will outperform the old PB).

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Yes Jerry, but note that's NOT the Phoenix Bird you think it is. Apparently they're doing it all in BT-55 and balsa! (of course, with a good finish it will probably be a bit lighter and will outperform the old PB).

I'm still holding out hope that the specs are wrong and that it will still be the traditional plastic nose cone and fin can PB. Maybe just something that wasn't caught in the proofreading? :rolleyes: Please?

[Gus]

Bill,

What is it about the Phoenix Bird that you find appealing? Just curious. Seems like a pretty routine quick-build rocket.

[Initiator001]

Bill,

What is it about the Phoenix Bird that you find appealing? Just curious. Seems like a pretty routine quick-build rocket.

It's an Enerjet 1340 in disguise! ;)

[Gus]

It's an Enerjet 1340 in disguise! ;)
Doh!

Now I understand why they go for so much on eBay.

I finally got my hands on one two years ago but the appeal to me is totally different. I grew up in Phoenix and pretty much everything I flew as a kid was Centuri. So a Centuri rocket with a Phoenix bird logo brings back lots of great memories.

I remember going out to the Centuri Engineering plant as a kid (and I just found out from Lee and Betty Piester at NARAM that they apparently used to occasionally shop at my family's drugstore located not far from Centuri's offices).

But I just couldn't figure out why folks were bidding so much for what today we'd call an E2x.

Now I get it.

Thanks Bob.

[Royatl]

It's an Enerjet 1340 in disguise! ;)

Ah! That's the firm evidence I needed for another thread. I think I have one of those short nose cones.

did the 1340 come with both noses, or is that long nosed one a clone?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Bill,

What is it about the Phoenix Bird that you find appealing? Just curious. Seems like a pretty routine quick-build rocket.

The fact that I can't make the decals. :D ;)
Got all the parts, but without the decals I just never really felt the need to move it up in the queue.

[Eagle3]

IIRC the first version had the shorter balsa cone and the second one used the longer plastic cone. Someone with a better memory needs to chime in. ;)

[Jerry Irvine]

The Phoenix Bird had thin wall ST-13 tubes and the Enerjet 1340 had thicker wall, perhaps Minimax or custom tubing, that being the only kit I recall seeing it. TWO different nose cone and coupler molds! The 1340 fins came red and the Phoenix Bird Blue and later other colors. Same mold. Lee once discussed the mold in great detail with me and mentioned several ways he wished he changed the design to improve strength and manufacturability.

They always gave spare PB's for retail demos we did and public displays like football halftime shows, fairs, and air shows. We were outreach gods.

MPC gave a lot of "Moon Go's", Centuri "Phoenix Birds", and Estes "Big Berthas".

On that BEAUTIFUL Phoenix Bird photo, the first one has a Nike-Ram plastic nose cone, the second a Phoenix Bird nose cone and the third would be an Enerjet 1340 nose cone if it were red plastic and for thicker wall tube. The 1340 coupler has a band in the middle so that looks original. I want 10,000 parts from that mold.

Jerry

Polaris Section 193 Claremont, CA

[Gus]

The fact that I can't make the decals. :D ;)
Got all the parts, but without the decals I just never really felt the need to move it up in the queue.
Hokey Smokes! :eek:

I never realized there were no plans or scans available.

When I get all my stuff out of storage (basement flood :mad: ) I'll open mine and get to scanning.

What I'd really like is to get it built, then have Lee and Betty sign it.

[Ltvscout]

Yes Jerry, but note that's NOT the Phoenix Bird you think it is. Apparently they're doing it all in BT-55 and balsa! (of course, with a good finish it will probably be a bit lighter and will outperform the old PB).
I'm still hoping that's not the case. If it is, I would have a REAL hard time calling this a "Classic Series." If these kits aren't true to the originals, they're just new rockets based on old classic designs.

[Phred]

I agree. 'Classic Rockets' built using Centuri decals and ESTES parts are not really classics, no more than my new Mini Cooper is a Classic Mini Cooper.

I know that the models built for the Hobby Show are just that: demo models.
Althougth I am very happy to see real kits, and a return to an emphasis on hobby shop sales, not to mention the resurrection of Centuri designs, I sure do hope ESTES releases these with the correctly sized and thickness tubes.

Phred

[Initiator001]

Ah! That's the firm evidence I needed for another thread. I think I have one of those short nose cones.

did the 1340 come with both noses, or is that long nosed one a clone?

Roy,

I did a bit of research when building my 1340 clones for NARAM-48.

A brief article in one of the issues of Enerjet News shows the 'short/stubby' nose cone on the model. This cone was used on the Enerjet Nike Ram model.

When the 1340 went into production, it used the longer nose cone.

I hope that the re-issued Phoenix Bird comes out with plastic parts like the original. I used up all the fin cans and nose cones I bought from Estes. :(

Here's a picture of Lee Piester at NARAM-48 with one of my Enerjet 1340 clones.

Bob

[Ltvscout]

I hope that the re-issued Phoenix Bird comes out with plastic parts like the original. I used up all the fin cans and nose cones I bought from Estes. :(
Is the Estes Eliminator (Maniac in different colors) OOP now? If not, just use the parts from one of those.

[snaquin]

Ah! That's the firm evidence I needed for another thread. I think I have one of those short nose cones.

did the 1340 come with both noses, or is that long nosed one a clone?

Another place I've seen the short PNC-132 shaped cone was on the 1340 brochure cover. Chris Timm generously submitted copies of all the EnerJet brochures a while back and the one for the 1340 is here:

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerjet/enj1340/enj1340.htm

Jerry may know but I doubt that short coned version was ever a production model. The dimensioned drawing inside that same brochure shows the long cone. The plastic cone and coupler of the 1340 would have been special parts that the Phoenix Bird would not have shared since the id of the 1340 was a thicker walled airframe and the Phoenix Bird was ST-13 as Jerry noted. I'd still like to build the Phoenix Bird but as others have mentioned mostly for the decals, not for the newer balsa parts (if that is what it will indeed ship with).

Also some good clone info from Chris, Bob and others that contributed to this thread I started Jan. 2006 about the 1340. Clone parts lists, RockSim files ect are here:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=632

:)

.

[SEL]

Only place I've ever seen the short PNC-132 shaped cone was on the 1340 brochure cover. Chris Timm generously submitted copies of all the EnerJet brochures a while back and the one for the 1340 is here:

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerjet/enj1340/enj1340.htm

Jerry may know but I doubt that short coned version was ever a production model. The dimensioned drawing inside that same brochure shows the long cone. The plastic cone and coupler of the 1340 would have been special parts that the Phoenix Bird would not have shared since the id of the 1340 was a thicker walled airframe and the Phoenix Bird was ST-13 as Jerry noted. I'd still like to build the Phoenix Bird but as others have mentioned mostly for the decals, not for the newer balsa parts (if that is what it will indeed ship with).

Also some good clone info from Chris, Bob and others that contributed to this thread I started Jan. 2006 about the 1340. Clone parts lists, RockSim files ect are here:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=632

:)

.

Here's the 1340 clone I flew at NARAM on a F27-8 redline, signed by Lee. The cone is an original PNC-132 with a 'TC13' coupler that Al Andrake used to sell. Looks like a piece of LOC 29mm motor tube. I think I prefer the short cone, personally.
Sean

[SEL]

Here's the 1340 clone I flew at NARAM on a F27-8 redline, signed by Lee. The cone is an original PNC-132 with a 'TC13' coupler that Al Andrake used to sell. Looks like a piece of LOC 29mm motor tube. I think I prefer the short cone, personally.
Sean

I should have mentioned that I used Als heavy duty version of the ST13 tubing.

Sean

[snaquin]

Here's the 1340 clone I flew at NARAM on a F27-8 redline, signed by Lee. The cone is an original PNC-132 with a 'TC13' coupler that Al Andrake used to sell. Looks like a piece of LOC 29mm motor tube. I think I prefer the short cone, personally.
Sean

Sean,

I forgot to mention the wealth of information you have shared with me to assist with the building of my EnerJet models I detailed on YORF.

I couldn't attend NARAM but I remember someone had reported that you flew that model at NARAM on a F27, possibly AL (Green Dragon) and that Lee signed it for you. That's awesome!

I remember thinking way to go Sean. Flying an EnerJet clone on an F composite at NARAM AND having it signed by Lee. How proud you must be of your 1340!

My model still has a hardwood nose cone not the PNC-132 but I'd still like to obtain an original plastic PNC-132 one day to put on top of it.

:D

[snaquin]

The Phoenix Bird had thin wall ST-13 tubes and the Enerjet 1340 had thicker wall, perhaps Minimax or custom tubing, that being the only kit I recall seeing it. TWO different nose cone and coupler molds! The 1340 fins came red and the Phoenix Bird Blue and later other colors. Same mold. Lee once discussed the mold in great detail with me and mentioned several ways he wished he changed the design to improve strength and manufacturability.

They always gave spare PB's for retail demos we did and public displays like football halftime shows, fairs, and air shows. We were outreach gods.

MPC gave a lot of "Moon Go's", Centuri "Phoenix Birds", and Estes "Big Berthas".

On that BEAUTIFUL Phoenix Bird photo, the first one has a Nike-Ram plastic nose cone, the second a Phoenix Bird nose cone and the third would be an Enerjet 1340 nose cone if it were red plastic and for thicker wall tube. The 1340 coupler has a band in the middle so that looks original. I want 10,000 parts from that mold.

Jerry

Polaris Section 193 Claremont, CA

Jerry,

Do you still have any of your original 1340's?

.

[Initiator001]

Is the Estes Eliminator (Maniac in different colors) OOP now? If not, just use the parts from one of those.

Back when I was building my 1340 clones, I contacted Estes and spoke to Christine about the plastic parts I needed.

She said they (Estes) was out of the Eliminator parts but there were leftover parts from the two-stage Longshot kit (Same parts, different color (black)).

So, for less than thirty dollars (Including shipping) I received four sets of fin cans and nose cones. That same amount of money would buy me one Eliminator kit at SRP. :(

Bob

[Ltvscout]

Back when I was building my 1340 clones, I contacted Estes and spoke to Christine about the plastic parts I needed.

She said they (Estes) was out of the Eliminator parts but there were leftover parts from the two-stage Longshot kit (Same parts, different color (black)).

So, for less than thirty dollars (Including shipping) I received four sets of fin cans and nose cones. That same amount of money would buy me one Eliminator kit at SRP.
Hmmm, that's weird. I wonder why they wouldn't have parts for a kit they still sell (Eliminator, I just checked the website and they still list it.) and instead have parts for a kit that was last sold 10 years ago. Can't blame ya for going for that deal though. ;)

I bought up a number of Long Shot's a few years back just to have a stockpile of the fin cans and cones.

[kurtschachner]

You have some Long Shots? I wish I would have known that.

I should have figured you did though ;)



I bought up a number of Long Shot's a few years back just to have a stockpile of the fin cans and cones.

[Mark II]

I wonder why the Estes brochure lists the Phoenix Bird as coming out in Spring, 2009, and then lists it again among the kits slated to be released in Summer, 2009? :confused: Typo? Or maybe there will be more than one version? (But the kit numbers are the same... :( )

Mark \\.

[mn-rocketry]

I was perusing the Estes product listing on Great Planes hobby distributors' database last night at work.

The availability date of the classic series is now listed as "October". Of course, those dates don't mean much...

Also, I noted that the following rockets have disappeared from the listing:
3012 Excaliber 2
3036 Marauder
3038 Thunder Hawk
3039 Thunder Bird
3040 Thunder Roc

As a crosscheck, Horizon Hobby Distributors doesn't have those kits in their listings, either.

[AKPilot]

Given their track record with such release announcements, does this come as a surprise that Estes is either pushing release dates out or dropping mention of items?

My, candid, thoughts are that they are trying to prevent others from producing such kits.

[ghrocketman]

Here we go again with announcements that don't come to fruition.
I'll believe in those kits when I have them in my hand and not until.

[Rocket Doctor]

Here we go again with announcements that don't come to fruition.
I'll believe in those kits when I have them in my hand and not until.

The Classics were originally scheduled for March/April release.
The main problem is with the HR4040, and, Estes wants to be in compliance with that.

So, it's not the fact that Estes has big ideas that don't come to light, but, when you thrown a roadblaock, you have to deal with it.

From what I heard, the new release date is August.

Also, be looking for the Saturn 1-B and Saturn V among others.

[motley16]

As someone else said "given there track record"that alone is why the doubters are doubters. Why else would this type of talk be out there? Estes has lost all credability in the rocket community. Others will produce what estes seems unable or unwilling to. I to think estes says things so others dont produce kits they may normally produce. First it was march than july now august or whatever. Don't anyone hold your breath. Estes is great at building up hope than poof no substance. :mad: Regulations right, how long can they use that line? We all know better. Estes road that train long enough now time for a new line. :mad: Time for estes to put out product or give it up already :mad:

[Shreadvector]

As someone else said "given there track record"that alone is why the doubters are doubters. Why else would this type of talk be out there? Estes has lost all credability in the rocket community. Others will produce what estes seems unable or unwilling to. I to think estes says things so others dont produce kits they may normally produce. First it was march than july now august or whatever. Don't anyone hold your breath. Estes is great at building up hope than poof no substance. :mad: Regulations right, how long can they use that line? We all know better. Estes road that train long enough now time for a new line. :mad: Time for estes to put out product or give it up already :mad:

"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ? :p

:confused:
Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.:rolleyes:

[motley16]

"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ? :p

:confused:
Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.:rolleyes:
I read the postings by all. I also read the frustrating posts by all. Now most of us are frustrated. Estes can,t even release one or two token classics till the mass are ready? You can't always trust what you read to be the truth. YEA THE INK IS BAD AND WE CAN'T FIX IT :chuckle: :rolleyes: Wake up people. Call it as i see it. Shame i grew up on the estes stuff.

[Rocket Doctor]

As someone else said "given there track record"that alone is why the doubters are doubters. Why else would this type of talk be out there? Estes has lost all credability in the rocket community. Others will produce what estes seems unable or unwilling to. I to think estes says things so others dont produce kits they may normally produce. First it was march than july now august or whatever. Don't anyone hold your breath. Estes is great at building up hope than poof no substance. :mad: Regulations right, how long can they use that line? We all know better. Estes road that train long enough now time for a new line. :mad: Time for estes to put out product or give it up already :mad:

You have no idea what is involved with the testing for LEAD. Which has cost Estes thousands of dollars so far to become compliant.

And, I had also heard, that they are making the standard for PPM even more stringent.

You have a choice of companies to purchase your rockets from, if, Estes doesn't deliver in a timely manner, then, look into other sources.

The kits would have been out on schedule , if it weren't for so many rules and regulations.

Remember what happned at Christmas time 2 years ago, Mattel had to pull most of their inventory off the shelves because of the LEAD content.

You have a choice...........

[Rocket Doctor]

"road"? Perhaps that was "rode" ? :p

:confused:
Obviously you have not read the extensive postings by the owner of Estes and one of the long-time designers at Estes. They have detailed very clearly that the new testing regulations are delaying product shipment (and also resulting in destruction of millions of dollars in parts/products that failed the tests).

The new kits that arrived at Wal-mart nationwide with the balsa fins and transitions and nose cones and the white parachutes (again, the ink or dye testing prohibited the printed chutes....) are evidence proving that what they have said is true.

The company is for sale. Those who can do better should buy it and amaze us all at how they can produce and legally sell these products better. They will become rich.:rolleyes:

AMEN fred.

I agree with you 100%. Estes is trying very hard to bring out new kits and be in compliance.........PERIOD.

It would not be in the best interest of Estes to announce all those Classics, and they did it at a Trade Show in Chicago, just to give everyone the thumbs down, Doesn't make sense, and , It would be a very poor business model.

Like Fred said, the company is up for sale, if you can come up with the asking price, buy the company and see for yourself, what headaches Estes is going through to bring out jproducts for everyone.

This topic is getting LAME.............either understand that the Classics won't be out for awhile, or, settle for the Sustainables in the meantime.

The current business climate is not the same anymore, too many regulations and too many lawyers ready to sue everyone.

[AKPilot]

I for one want to see Estes succeed. However, whether it's the current business climate or the old business climate, Estes has a documented track record of announcements followed by significant delays.

RD glad to see that you have renewed faith in them despite what they did to you a few years ago - it speaks highly of your character. Again, I do hope they sincerely succeed at some point however, being a realist - they're following the same track.

Maybe they should modify their business model to have the products in hand, THEN make the announcements - so as to gain both customer and brand loyalty.

[Vanel]

I must confess that I too am skeptical that the "Classics" will arrive this year, if at all. As far as the lead is concerned, 1) the Classics are supposedly green, with balsa cones and fins, which should minimize any lead problems, and 2) Estes made the conscious decision to move their production to China some time ago. One reaps what one sows. My take on the situation is that a lot of this is hype, intended to put the company in a good light while it is up for sale - I would probably do the same. And in my line of work at NASA, I have learned to be skeptical of the claims of any vendor or contractor about the causes of delays - they almost always hide the truth behind some tale of woe caused by oppressive uncontrollable outside forces, be it the government, their sub-contractors, or another company failing to deliver. Thus, it is very naive to put great stock in what Barry Tunick or Estes employees say about delays or problems. As Troy points out, actions speak louder than words, and Estes has been systemic in being late or failing to deliver announced product - long before the regs they now complain about.

I think most of us would agree that the big E has also showed little innovation in recent years; they canned - for whatever reasons - their chance at producing some beautiful Shrox-designed kits. Now they hope to lure us back to the fold by pseudo-resurrecting the past, but many of the Classics line are not true to their original dimensions or shapes (Alien Invader nose, for example, or the diameters of some of the Centuri-inspired models). As RD says, we have choices, and I would prefer to use Semroc parts so that my Long Tom be as close to the original as possible. I am not a paranoid, nor a conspiricist (is that a word?), but there may be a germ of truth in the notion that the Classic line publicity is intended to stall the development of clone kits by the smaller rocket manufacturers.

Anyway, I will continue to patronize the company - I have some Estes kits on the way from AC Supply - but my hopes for the hobby now reside with the other rocket vendors. Anyone who thinks Estes, even under new management, will return to the glory days of the 60's and 70's, is deluding themselves. Those days are gone, and better days (except for the LPR motor situation) are here.

So a big thank you to Apogee, Dr. Zooch, Fliskits, Hot Rod, InFlight, Quest, Red River, RoachWerks, Rocketflite, Semroc, Sheri, Shrox, Sirius, Squirrel Works, Sunward and the others my feeble old brain has just forgotten. You guys are responsible for continuing to push our hobby forward by hard work, great service, and new ideas.

/salute

[Rocket Doctor]

I for one want to see Estes succeed. However, whether it's the current business climate or the old business climate, Estes has a documented track record of announcements followed by significant delays.

RD glad to see that you have renewed faith in them despite what they did to you a few years ago - it speaks highly of your character. Again, I do hope they sincerely succeed at some point however, being a realist - they're following the same track.

Maybe they should modify their business model to have the products in hand, THEN make the announcements - so as to gain both customer and brand loyalty.

AKPilot

I agree with you when you say that Estes should have the merchandise in stock ready to go before they make any announcements. And, yes, Estes has announced many kits over the years that never came out for whatever reasons.

Maybe this would be a great question for Barry when he comes back online.

Estes is up for sale, hopefully, the new owners will take it into a new direction, and, perhaps not, time will tell.

But, one thing we have to keep in mind though, they are the KINGS of motors, no doublt about it, so, the kid with all the toys can dictate what happens.

I hope things change, and Estes can get back on track for the benefit of all of us.
RD

[Rocket Doctor]

I must confess that I too am skeptical that the "Classics" will arrive this year, if at all. As far as the lead is concerned, 1) the Classics are supposedly green, with balsa cones and fins, which should minimize any lead problems, and 2) Estes made the conscious decision to move their production to China some time ago. One reaps what one sows. My take on the situation is that a lot of this is hype, intended to put the company in a good light while it is up for sale - I would probably do the same. And in my line of work at NASA, I have learned to be skeptical of the claims of any vendor or contractor about the causes of delays - they almost always hide the truth behind some tale of woe caused by oppressive uncontrollable outside forces, be it the government, their sub-contractors, or another company failing to deliver. Thus, it is very naive to put great stock in what Barry Tunick or Estes employees say about delays or problems. As Troy points out, actions speak louder than words, and Estes has been systemic in being late or failing to deliver announced product - long before the regs they now complain about.

I think most of us would agree that the big E has also showed little innovation in recent years; they canned - for whatever reasons - their chance at producing some beautiful Shrox-designed kits. Now they hope to lure us back to the fold by pseudo-resurrecting the past, but many of the Classics line are not true to their original dimensions or shapes (Alien Invader nose, for example, or the diameters of some of the Centuri-inspired models). As RD says, we have choices, and I would prefer to use Semroc parts so that my Long Tom be as close to the original as possible. I am not a paranoid, nor a conspiricist (is that a word?), but there may be a germ of truth in the notion that the Classic line publicity is intended to stall the development of clone kits by the smaller rocket manufacturers.

Anyway, I will continue to patronize the company - I have some Estes kits on the way from AC Supply - but my hopes for the hobby now reside with the other rocket vendors. Anyone who thinks Estes, even under new management, will return to the glory days of the 60's and 70's, is deluding themselves. Those days are gone, and better days (except for the LPR motor situation) are here.

So a big thank you to Apogee, Dr. Zooch, Fliskits, Hot Rod, InFlight, Quest, Red River, RoachWerks, Rocketflite, Semroc, Sheri, Shrox, Sirius, Squirrel Works, Sunward and the others my feeble old brain has just forgotten. You guys are responsible for continuing to push our hobby forward by hard work, great service, and new ideas.

/salute

In my opinion, one of the reasons that the dimensions are not the same as the originals is that would create a larger inventory of part, more money being invested when they basically don't have it right now.

It would be nice to turn back the clock to an earlier era, and be able to benefit from all the great kits as they came out, but, unfortunataly, that can't be done.

Also, the talent isn't there as it was in the past to design those great kit. Mike D is there and contributing to the effort, but, how about the other designers?

Let's see what the future hold for Estes as they seek out a new owner.

[jetlag]

Ken,
What is the asking price for Estes? I guess I just missed it if it was posted here somewhere.
Hope you are well: missed you and Diane the other weekend in O'burg.
Allen

[Rocket Doctor]

Ken,
What is the asking price for Estes? I guess I just missed it if it was posted here somewhere.
Hope you are well: missed you and Diane the other weekend in O'burg.
Allen

Allen

The asking price has not been revealed by anyone as far as I know. I could only guess, but, I probably would be way off.

We hope all is well with you, especially with all the rainy weather in our area lately.

Ken

[AKPilot]

Estes should open up a bid on e-bay for their company, and see how high it can go.

[Shreadvector]

http://www.geocities.com/fredeshecter/provbid.wav

Estes should open up a bid on e-bay for their company, and see how high it can go.

[motley16]

I must confess that I too am skeptical that the "Classics" will arrive this year, if at all. As far as the lead is concerned, 1) the Classics are supposedly green, with balsa cones and fins, which should minimize any lead problems, and 2) Estes made the conscious decision to move their production to China some time ago. One reaps what one sows. My take on the situation is that a lot of this is hype, intended to put the company in a good light while it is up for sale - I would probably do the same. And in my line of work at NASA, I have learned to be skeptical of the claims of any vendor or contractor about the causes of delays - they almost always hide the truth behind some tale of woe caused by oppressive uncontrollable outside forces, be it the government, their sub-contractors, or another company failing to deliver. Thus, it is very naive to put great stock in what Barry Tunick or Estes employees say about delays or problems. As Troy points out, actions speak louder than words, and Estes has been systemic in being late or failing to deliver announced product - long before the regs they now complain about.

I think most of us would agree that the big E has also showed little innovation in recent years; they canned - for whatever reasons - their chance at producing some beautiful Shrox-designed kits. Now they hope to lure us back to the fold by pseudo-resurrecting the past, but many of the Classics line are not true to their original dimensions or shapes (Alien Invader nose, for example, or the diameters of some of the Centuri-inspired models). As RD says, we have choices, and I would prefer to use Semroc parts so that my Long Tom be as close to the original as possible. I am not a paranoid, nor a conspiricist (is that a word?), but there may be a germ of truth in the notion that the Classic line publicity is intended to stall the development of clone kits by the smaller rocket manufacturers.

Anyway, I will continue to patronize the company - I have some Estes kits on the way from AC Supply - but my hopes for the hobby now reside with the other rocket vendors. Anyone who thinks Estes, even under new management, will return to the glory days of the 60's and 70's, is deluding themselves. Those days are gone, and better days (except for the LPR motor situation) are here.

So a big thank you to Apogee, Dr. Zooch, Fliskits, Hot Rod, InFlight, Quest, Red River, RoachWerks, Rocketflite, Semroc, Sheri, Shrox, Sirius, Squirrel Works, Sunward and the others my feeble old brain has just forgotten. You guys are responsible for continuing to push our hobby forward by hard work, great service, and new ideas.

/salute
So someone else feels the same as i do...wow how about that! and also has the balls to put it out ther for all to read. :) I am not some kid that has no idea about " how things work" so the disrespect is not needed.

[Rocket Doctor]

Estes should open up a bid on e-bay for their company, and see how high it can go.

I don't think that Barry has the posting fees and related costs, but, an auction would be interesting though.

[Rocket Doctor]

So someone else feels the same as i do...wow how about that! and also has the balls to put it out ther for all to read. :) I am not some kid that has no idea about " how things work" so the disrespect is not needed.

Everyone on this forum has a right to his or her own opinions, as long as they don't make it a personal attack or slander anyone.

Age means nothing, you can be mature at 12 and not mature at 21, it a individual thing in my opinion.

But, I don't think you grasp what goes on behind the scenes at any company, let alone Estes or any other rocket company.

Even the fortune 500 companies have meetings and plan on new products for months, many concepts are shelved even before their meetings. There are many factors to take into consideration on any product.

Is it unique, would a customer buy the product, are material easily obtained, what about production, what about lead times, what about shipping, what about distributors, what about retailers, what about federal regulations, what about local regulations, it goes on and on and on.

Just because a kit or kits don't come out, that doesn't mean the company doesn't care, I'm sure that there is reasons, some that can be shared and other that cannot.

Like I said before, you have a CHOICE, there are plenty of other great rocket companies around that would be more than willing to take your money for their products.

To continue to degrade Estes seems silly to me. You have a CHOICE , it's like watching TV, you have a channel changer, if you don't like whats on, just push the button.

And, let's talk about motors as well. Right now, Estes has the most motors available, thats a fact. Do you realize what the regulations are for storing, and making motors. What about the BATF regulations, local and state regulation the the massive insurance cost.

Your talking about a hugh amount of black powder, you have to look at it on a broader basis, not just a few motors.

As Fred has pointed out previously, if anyone can do better, get a business loan, make a deal with Barry to aquire the company and then see for yourself that it's not all peaches and cream.

A company can only do so much, and, lately, Estes has tried it's best to turn things around, but, constant negative comments do nothing more that to create friction.

All of the energy here could be used to teach others about the hobby, start a new club or improve on an existing one.

On the NAR section list, there are eleven (11) States that do not have sections, that was apparent when we did the Golden Scout program, many lacking states of perticipation.

If everyone of us brought just one new member into the "flock" just think how the numbers would grow.

[AKPilot]

RD in absolute fairness, you yourself have been very critical of Estes in years past - when, as a contractor, you were let go with little/no notice, and others along with you. I can't find all of your old threads/posts because they've been deleted, but many of your first posts were very critical of Estes when you first started the Rocket Doctor section. Not sure where Estes came back in favor with you but, again, this speaks highly of your character.

I think many people here have stated it, we're just tired of hollow promises from Estes. But I wholeheartedly agree, I'd like to see them around for intro rockets for the masses and motors alone. Estes serves a valuable purpose in that regard.

As for a business loan, many of us don't have enough clout with a bank to request upwards of $25M, regardless of how good your business plan might be. That and we don't know what clauses Barry is putting into the sell. Unless you're a corporation, you'd need some sizable assets simply for risk adversion, AND you'd have to have some sort of inside information to know what Estes is doing wrong - more than just promising catalogs and goods, and failing to deliver.

[motley16]

Everyone on this forum has a right to his or her own opinions, as long as they don't make it a personal attack or slander anyone.

Age means nothing, you can be mature at 12 and not mature at 21, it a individual thing in my opinion.

But, I don't think you grasp what goes on behind the scenes at any company, let alone Estes or any other rocket company.

Even the fortune 500 companies have meetings and plan on new products for months, many concepts are shelved even before their meetings. There are many factors to take into consideration on any product.

Is it unique, would a customer buy the product, are material easily obtained, what about production, what about lead times, what about shipping, what about distributors, what about retailers, what about federal regulations, what about local regulations, it goes on and on and on.

Just because a kit or kits don't come out, that doesn't mean the company doesn't care, I'm sure that there is reasons, some that can be shared and other that cannot.

Like I said before, you have a CHOICE, there are plenty of other great rocket companies around that would be more than willing to take your money for their products.

To continue to degrade Estes seems silly to me. You have a CHOICE , it's like watching TV, you have a channel changer, if you don't like whats on, just push the button.

And, let's talk about motors as well. Right now, Estes has the most motors available, thats a fact. Do you realize what the regulations are for storing, and making motors. What about the BATF regulations, local and state regulation the the massive insurance cost.

Your talking about a hugh amount of black powder, you have to look at it on a broader basis, not just a few motors.

As Fred has pointed out previously, if anyone can do better, get a business loan, make a deal with Barry to aquire the company and then see for yourself that it's not all peaches and cream.

A company can only do so much, and, lately, Estes has tried it's best to turn things around, but, constant negative comments do nothing more that to create friction.

All of the energy here could be used to teach others about the hobby, start a new club or improve on an existing one.

On the NAR section list, there are eleven (11) States that do not have sections, that was apparent when we did the Golden Scout program, many lacking states of perticipation.

If everyone of us brought just one new member into the "flock" just think how the numbers would grow.To make the statement I don't "grasp" what goes on behind the scenes at any company is poor wording at the very best. You don't know me how can you say that or anything like it? You see i own my own company and making money even in these hard times. So i do "understand" how things work. I could do 10 times better in the P.R. end at estes that is for sure. That is 95% of there problem. I am not"degrading" estes, just pointing out the blunders. Do you think i am unaware i can buy rockets from others? You must. I keep reading that. Wow my opinions must have hit a nerve.

[Rocket Doctor]

RD in absolute fairness, you yourself have been very critical of Estes in years past - when, as a contractor, you were let go with little/no notice, and others along with you. I can't find all of your old threads/posts because they've been deleted, but many of your first posts were very critical of Estes when you first started the Rocket Doctor section. Not sure where Estes came back in favor with you but, again, this speaks highly of your character.

I think many people here have stated it, we're just tired of hollow promises from Estes. But I wholeheartedly agree, I'd like to see them around for intro rockets for the masses and motors alone. Estes serves a valuable purpose in that regard.

As for a business loan, many of us don't have enough clout with a bank to request upwards of $25M, regardless of how good your business plan might be. That and we don't know what clauses Barry is putting into the sell. Unless you're a corporation, you'd need some sizable assets simply for risk adversion, AND you'd have to have some sort of inside information to know what Estes is doing wrong - more than just promising catalogs and goods, and failing to deliver.


AKPilot

You are correct, I have been critical and outspoken about Estes myself, but, not for the reasons that I hear here.

I got booted off the Estes Forum for speaking up for my fellow rocketeers, they just didn't want to hear the constructive criticism, so, I went down in flames.

My goal was to be a conduit between Estes and you, their loyal customers, to imporve the product and offer suggestions for new and exciting products. It would be a win/win situation that Estes would benefit and their customers would benefit.

I was very hurt when I was "let go" on April 21,2007, but, there was more going on behind the scenes and two individuals are no longer employed at Estes over the whole situation.

The Estes Forum grew by leaps and bounds in a little over three months, we had great conveersation and covered a variety of subjects. It was a good thing for both Estes and their forum members.

The standing joke between myself and my friends at Estes was, if I hit the lottery, I would buy the place and I have my "pink slip list" ready to go. I still have that dream.

What gets me though,it seems that most all of the criticism is over one company, constant issues. Like I mentioned previously, there are many things going on in the background that affect the decisions that are being made. I'm not privy to them, but, I get the jist of what they are.

I want to see Estes prosper and get through these tough economic times, I want to see new items and for them to improve those that are still in the line, that has been my goal all along, that is part of what I did for them.

When I wrote instructions for kits, I would get all the paperwork and parts and ACTUALLY build the kit, noting any difference that I would come across. Then, write the instructions in a manner inwhich the builder would have little to no problem with the build. For example, on the Renegade two stage kit, I went as far as to have sub assemblies because of all of the fins on that kit, and, with that kit, I found that the booster fins were 1/8" oversized, and they were changed.

My comments and constructive critism was not to harass or banter Estes, rather to help them and their customers.

Barry and I have extended the olive branch, I see no reason to harbor ill feelings against Estes or anyone else that are still there. The forum issue is past history.

I am also concerned over who the new owner might be, we know what we have right now, but, we have no idea of what a new owner might do with the company. I have put my 2 cents in over that, we can only hope for the best.

The only thing that I can say is, "If I owned the company, what would I do?", I think we all should sit back and come up with our own business plan and see how we would run the company.

It's a big job, in these hard economic times, regulations and the loss of many hobby shops, it;s certainly not the 60's or 70's anymore and that's ashame.

RD

[Rocket Doctor]

To make the statement I don't "grasp" what goes on behind the scenes at any company is poor wording at the very best. You don't know me how can you say that or anything like it? You see i own my own company and making money even in these hard times. So i do "understand" how things work. I could do 10 times better in the P.R. end at estes that is for sure. That is 95% of there problem. I am not"degrading" estes, just pointing out the blunders. Do you think i am unaware i can buy rockets from others? You must. I keep reading that. Wow my opinions must have hit a nerve.

My point being, you don't know what is going on behind the scenes at Estes.
See my comments above.

[Ltvscout]

RD in absolute fairness, you yourself have been very critical of Estes in years past - when, as a contractor, you were let go with little/no notice, and others along with you. I can't find all of your old threads/posts because they've been deleted, but many of your first posts were very critical of Estes when you first started the Rocket Doctor section. Not sure where Estes came back in favor with you but, again, this speaks highly of your character.
I haven't deleted anything here on YORF. Set the display options when in the Ask the Doctor forum to show all messages from the beginning.

[AKPilot]

My comments and constructive critism was not to harass or banter Estes, rather to help them and their customers.




I think that's what most people are doing, in a different ways - call it "constructive dissatisfaction".

I personally don't know anyone that wants Estes to fail. Their demisal would be a huge blow to our hobby.

However as a customer I, and others, are tired of a business model that disappoints its loyalty base.

[Rocket Doctor]

I think that's what most people are doing, in a different ways - call it "constructive dissatisfaction".

I personally don't know anyone that wants Estes to fail. Their demisal would be a huge blow to our hobby.

However as a customer I, and others, are tired of a business model that disappoints its loyalty base.


Solution = Sale

[shrox]

Just install me as director of Estes. Things will be much better.

[AKPilot]

Too many constraints around the sale of Estes for me. ;)

Not to mention finding a financer.

[Rocket Doctor]

Just install me as director of Estes. Things will be much better.

I'm still hoping on winning the lottery, then, I would buy it and bring you on board. I would also bring on board more rocketeers who know what they are doing.

The main thing here is MONEY to buy the place, then everything else is secondary.

[Shreadvector]

You know how to make a small fortune in Model Rocketry, don't you?







































Start with a LARGE fortune. :chuckle:

[Rocket Doctor]

YUP..........and when my ship comes in, with my luck, I will probably be at the Airport !!!!

[gpoehlein]

YUP..........and when my ship comes in, with my luck, I will probably be at the Airport !!!!

Yeah, well... I figure when opportunity knocks, I'll probably be in the back yard digging up the septic tank! ;)

Greg

[al_packer]

When fresh out of Estes 30+ years ago I ran the numbers on what it would take ($$$) for a viable start-up in the industry. It only made sense if you could afford to run the business as a hobby. I suspect the economics are much the same today. None of the firms in today's model rocket universe seem to be hugely successful financially--and although cloning old Estes and Centuri kits may be one way to keep your R&D costs down, tooling costs can still eat you up if you don't have a really large customer base. Even with all the economies Barry has made, I suspect he still has a huge overhead and a thin bottom line.

Back in the 60's I was told that Sears had an interesting model for dealing with their suppliers. Purportedly they would issue a big order for gazillions of wrenches, screwdrivers, or the like, and then when the small supplier had invested and tooled to produce, they'd cancel the order. In the ensuing negotiations, Sears would come away with a significant ownership stake in the small supplier, and the folks who had originally built the company would be out in the cold.

So--build a "fab at home" machine and use it to make your nose cones, etc. Learn to roll your own body tubes. But the engines are still a big problem unless your name is Ed Brown.

Bill

[AKPilot]

I was in an e-mail conversation with someone yesterday about the motor subject. I think people tend to forget that, for the average public that doesn't know where to buy motors more inexpensively, WM bought, Estes motors, now cost appx. $2.33 each! :eek: While many of us feel that may not be much, for a hobby, it is a bit pricey for a kid or an organization to buy. Think about it, for a cub scout pack with ten kids, a simple launch could easily cost over $100.

Not knocking it, it's simply reality!

My solution is I know when most of the BP motors go on sale, and where to buy them. In the past two years I've never bought a BP motor at full-price, or even at 40% off HL prices (which equate to old Estes prices). My last BP motor purchase was roughly 38 packs at $1/per pack.

Also, I'm starting to healthily supplement with AT composite 18/24mm motors. If I'm going to pay higher prices nowadays, I might as well get more bang for the buck.

For the average joe-blow consumer, they don't know when/where to buy the motors cheaper.

[Solomoriah]

AK: Any A's or B's in those cheapos?

If so: Would you be interested in swapping for some C's?

[chronister]

It's weird that they are using balsa nose cones for all the kits. That was a very traditionalist thing to do, and yet they changed the shape of some of the nose cones, and the size of some of the models. And some of those models originally had plastic nose cones! I wonder if the new Blue Bird Zero is going to have real swastikas instead of those cheesy dots.

[Rocket Doctor]

It's weird that they are using balsa nose cones for all the kits. That was a very traditionalist thing to do, and yet they changed the shape of some of the nose cones, and the size of some of the models. And some of those models originally had plastic nose cones! I wonder if the new Blue Bird Zero is going to have real swastikas instead of those cheesy dots.


HR4040 = Balsa Parts

Universal Balsa parts = reduction in inventory, savings in overhead

It will never be like the 60's again..............unfortunately !!

[Mark II]

....
My solution is I know when most of the BP motors go on sale, and where to buy them. In the past two years I've never bought a BP motor at full-price, or even at 40% off HL prices (which equate to old Estes prices). My last BP motor purchase was roughly 38 packs at $1/per pack.

Also, I'm starting to healthily supplement with AT composite 18/24mm motors. If I'm going to pay higher prices nowadays, I might as well get more bang for the buck.

For the average joe-blow consumer, they don't know when/where to buy the motors cheaper.
Well, I don't think that I'm an average Joe Consumer, and I keep a close eye out for motors at discount prices, but I have never seen them that cheap, or even anywhere close. If I could even find them at 3x what you paid, it would be my lucky day. Packs of Estes motors at $3 each would easily beat the best price that I have ever found for them since I became a BAR. The best price that I have ever paid (in this century), BTW, was the old Walmart price of $4.95/pack. That is a couple of bucks less per pack than the next cheapest price. And I do know where to look for good deals. Part of my problem, I guess, is that I never have $200 or $300 to blow on a big bulk purchase of motors, even though I am very seriously into this hobby.

MarkII

[Rocket Doctor]

Well, I don't think that I'm an average Joe Consumer, and I keep a close eye out for motors at discount prices, but I have never seen them that cheap, or even anywhere close. If I could even find them at 3x what you paid, it would be my lucky day. Packs of Estes motors at $3 each would easily beat the best price that I have ever found for them since I became a BAR. The best price that I have ever paid (in this century), BTW, was the old Walmart price of $4.95/pack. That is a couple of bucks less per pack than the next cheapest price. And I do know where to look for good deals. Part of my problem, I guess, is that I never have $200 or $300 to blow on a big bulk purchase of motors, even though I am very seriously into this hobby.

MarkII

FYI

I had purchased 10 packs of A10-3T's at a WalMart in NJ for $2.50 per pack just to get them off the shelf, but, it backfired, immediately, they replaced them with more A10-3T's. I tried to talk the assistant manager down to a buck a pack, but, he wouldn't do it, after telling him that there was NO kits they that would use those motors , and, that they had remained on the shelf for the past six months.

I also purchased 6 packs of assorted C's in South carolina about a month ago for $3.00 per pack, I aksed if they had anymore in the back room, and they said NO.

Apparently, for whatever reason, WM was cleaning out their inventory of motors, while, still having kits and starter sets on the shelves, makes no sense at all.

[Mark II]

We have been over this before. The Walmarts in my area never had Estes motors on clearance. Now they don't have any at all. I suspect that they just took all of the motors out of the Walmarts up here and shipped them to stores to the south and west of us, where they sold them at give-away prices. Our loss and your gain. You're welcome, by the way. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, my area Walmarts are stocking the Sustainables series, the Solar Scouts, the Flash, and the Rascal and Hijinks RTFs. But no motors to launch them on. I wonder what they think that buyers are supposed to do.

MarkII

[Rocket Doctor]

Motors at WM have been "drying up" for many months now, I have no clue. There have been some pretty good deals around the country, but, no everwhere though.

Now, my local WM has NO motors available, Sustainables, but, no motors ?????

[Solomoriah]

The Wal-Mart in Kirksville, MO had C6-5's for $6.97, C6-3's for $3.00, and C6-7's for $4.97, up until last week. Now, they have the whole range of Wal-Mart packaged engines, from A8-3 on up, and all but the C6-5's scan "Please See Associate." The C6-5's still read $6.97.

They also have several of the new kits.

[al_packer]

35 years or so ago, Claude Hathaway designed a single station engine-making machine, but Damon never funded its construction. (That's as opposed to the Mabel series machines, which produced the motors on a turntable with multiple stations.) Lower cost for the machine, less real estate required, and more flexibility in what you could turn out.

Vern's challenges in getting into engine production were 1) getting suitable casings, 2) finding a suitable clay for the nozzles, 3) producing the right packing pressures, and 4) controlling the moisture content of the raw propellant. So, who wants to take WalMart out of the loop and build an engine machine in his/her garage?

[blackshire]

I wonder if the "sugar rocket" propellant formulation might be suitable for small-batch motor production? The old TeleFlite book had plans for such motors that contained delay and ejection charges. The cases were made from rolled "gummed" brown paper packing tape, and the nozzles were made of clay.

The sugar/KNO3 propellant is less energetic than black powder, but it should be possible to make standard-size 18 mm X 70 mm sugar motors of "A" and "B" total impulse levels.

[Rocket Doctor]

Just out of curiosity, how's Carl doing at getting his engine production up and running?

35 years or so ago, Claude Hathaway designed a single station engine-making machine, but Damon never funded its construction. (That's as opposed to the Mabel series machines, which produced the motors on a turntable with multiple stations.) Lower cost for the machine, less real estate required, and more flexibility in what you could turn out.

Vern's challenges in getting into engine production were 1) getting suitable casings, 2) finding a suitable clay for the nozzles, 3) producing the right packing pressures, and 4) controlling the moisture content of the raw propellant. So, who wants to take WalMart out of the loop and build an engine machine in his/her garage?

Have you heard of Eastern Ballastics? They were located in Sparta NJ back in the early 60's. Keith Wolos built a machine to produce motors. From what I understand, he also built a machine for Cox, but, I cannot verify that.

I have only seen some Eastern Ballastic motors on this forum, no other information.

[al_packer]

Biggest problem with the sugar-based propellant is that it is hugely hygroscopic. Also, to get enough thrust, you have to make the engine a core burner as opposed to an end burner. It wasn't suitable for a production engine, though it was interesting to experiment with.

In today's political environment, it is easier for the would-be engine manufacturer to obtain black powder than it is to obtain KNO3.

[blackshire]

Biggest problem with the sugar-based propellant is that it is hugely hygroscopic. Also, to get enough thrust, you have to make the engine a core burner as opposed to an end burner. It wasn't suitable for a production engine, though it was interesting to experiment with.

In today's political environment, it is easier for the would-be engine manufacturer to obtain black powder than it is to obtain KNO3.

Points well taken. I wonder, though, if end-burning (and thus long-burn/low-thrust) sugar motors might work well for Jetex-type F/F (Free Flight) model aircraft in a manner similar to the Rapier motors?

[al_packer]

I don't remember anything regarding Eastern Ballistics, and they certainly should have been on our radar if they were actually producing and selling engines. It's possible G. Harry might have convinced someone to make a stab at entering the engine business (I don't think he ever forgave Vern for making a financial success in MR). As I recall, Cox didn't make their try at model rocketry and world domination until 1967, at which time they were going around telling everyone that "in three years, Estes will be no more."

Incidentally, I think that the entry of Cox into the hobby could be considered the beginning of the end for the pure form of the hobby, because to compete with Cox, Estes was compelled to create ready-to-fly and ARF models, as well as go to selling through the big distributors.

Can we get a bigger quick reply window on this forum? It's hard to write a coherent message when you can only see 5 lines at a time.

[al_packer]

IF you could keep the moisture content controlled. Problem is with the sugar you are packing along 22 H2O's for every 12 C's. If I were wanting to put my body at risk, I think I'd start out by trying some combinations with starch instead of sugar (Higher proportion of carbon).

[Royatl]

Can we get a bigger quick reply window on this forum? It's hard to write a coherent message when you can only see 5 lines at a time.

Bill,

If you click the "Quote" button instead of the Quick Reply button, you'll get a much larger editor. You'll have to either put up with the quoted message that you're replying to, or you can learn to cut it out entirely, or cut parts of it, like I did above.

Of course, you can also get the full editor by using the Post Reply button.

[shockwaveriderz]

Points well taken. I wonder, though, if end-burning (and thus long-burn/low-thrust) sugar motors might work well for Jetex-type F/F (Free Flight) model aircraft in a manner similar to the Rapier motors?


I'm sure you could if you solve the hydro problem as Bill pointed out. Although according to the FBI sugar rocket ingredients are considered an explosive(although all they could do is get it to burn) and the BATFE seems to be sniffing around in that same direction.

It seems that the only substance a person can use anymore that isn't considered an explosive anymore is APCP..... so how about some warp-9 or eb-75 endburners?

why go "back to the past" when you can see the future?

Bill, I do like the idea of a single shot automatic motor making machine...

terry dean

[Rocket Doctor]

I don't remember anything regarding Eastern Ballistics, and they certainly should have been on our radar if they were actually producing and selling engines. It's possible G. Harry might have convinced someone to make a stab at entering the engine business (I don't think he ever forgave Vern for making a financial success in MR). As I recall, Cox didn't make their try at model rocketry and world domination until 1967, at which time they were going around telling everyone that "in three years, Estes will be no more."

Incidentally, I think that the entry of Cox into the hobby could be considered the beginning of the end for the pure form of the hobby, because to compete with Cox, Estes was compelled to create ready-to-fly and ARF models, as well as go to selling through the big distributors.

Can we get a bigger quick reply window on this forum? It's hard to write a coherent message when you can only see 5 lines at a time.

Bill

Dale has posted photos of Eastern Ballastic motors under "Ask The Doctor" under the Eastern Ballastic title, check it out.

Thanks again Dale for your help.

RD

[Jeff Walther]

Vern's challenges in getting into engine production were 1) getting suitable casings, 2) finding a suitable clay for the nozzles, 3) producing the right packing pressures, and 4) controlling the moisture content of the raw propellant. So, who wants to take WalMart out of the loop and build an engine machine in his/her garage?

1) Today, casings are available from New England Paper Tube Co. Tubes (http://www.nepapertube.com/Products.htm) in custom sizes. The tubes of interest would be convolute virgin kraft. Their minimum order is $385 and the unit price at the minimum order tends to be in the neighborhood of $.12 - $.16 per engine tube.

I don't have any real interest in building an engine machine, except as a thought experiment. Doing the thought experiment, I continue to wonder how one shovels in a measured amount of a powder with a mechanical dingus. If one does it volumetrically, how does one control the density? How do you get it to flow down a tube, or do you build little mechanical shovels?

I'm sure this a long-ago solved problem, probably with solutions in a mechanical engineering book, but I don't know how it's done.

[Rocket Doctor]

1) Today, casings are available from New England Paper Tube Co. Tubes (http://www.nepapertube.com/Products.htm) in custom sizes. The tubes of interest would be convolute virgin kraft. Their minimum order is $385 and the unit price at the minimum order tends to be in the neighborhood of $.12 - $.16 per engine tube.

I don't have any real interest in building an engine machine, except as a thought experiment. Doing the thought experiment, I continue to wonder how one shovels in a measured amount of a powder with a mechanical dingus. If one does it volumetrically, how does one control the density? How do you get it to flow down a tube, or do you build little mechanical shovels?

I'm sure this a long-ago solved problem, probably with solutions in a mechanical engineering book, but I don't know how it's done.

Another consideration if local, state and federal regulations as well as liability insurance, and magazine and shipping documents.

Also, finding a source for a machine, I had a source, but, the gentleman will be retiring soon and doesn't want to get involved in making a machine.

There are many sources for tubes as well beside the one stated.

[Solomoriah]

Yes, I remember discussing this before. In the grand scheme of things, I seem to recall that Indiana was advanced as the best state to set up such a business; something about the fire code being more friendly.

I also recall discussing a location in a rural area so that neighbors would be unlikely to complain much, but near a major highway (perhaps half a mile or so off the Interstate) so that shipping wouldn't be a problem.

[Rocket Doctor]

Yes, I remember discussing this before. In the grand scheme of things, I seem to recall that Indiana was advanced as the best state to set up such a business; something about the fire code being more friendly.

I also recall discussing a location in a rural area so that neighbors would be unlikely to complain much, but near a major highway (perhaps half a mile or so off the Interstate) so that shipping wouldn't be a problem.


You are correct, this has been discussed in detail, I think it was under "Ask The Doctor" and the topic was "Motor Matters".

[Royatl]

I don't have any real interest in building an engine machine, except as a thought experiment. Doing the thought experiment, I continue to wonder how one shovels in a measured amount of a powder with a mechanical dingus. If one does it volumetrically, how does one control the density? How do you get it to flow down a tube, or do you build little mechanical shovels?

I'm sure this a long-ago solved problem, probably with solutions in a mechanical engineering book, but I don't know how it's done.

I'm pretty sure the pharmaceutical industry solved a lot of that probably a century or so ago.
When I was a wee tyke, my folks took me to the opening of the UGA Pharmacy School's then state-of-the-art new building. One of the machines on display was a low-production pill machine that was making buffered aspirin. It had a hopper and a press and a big wheel that could be either hand cranked or driven by direct or belt means (in this case, a pharmacy student was cranking it, making a couple of pills at a time and handing them out). A quick search shows a few companies that manufacture such devices, which I'm sure could be modified for use on a motor press.

[mycrofte]

I take it you are talking about a garage setup like a shotgun shell loader?!?

[Jeff Walther]

I'm pretty sure the pharmaceutical industry solved a lot of that probably a century or so ago.
When I was a wee tyke, my folks took me to the opening of the UGA Pharmacy School's then state-of-the-art new building. One of the machines on display was a low-production pill machine that was making buffered aspirin. It had a hopper and a press and a big wheel that could be either hand cranked or driven by direct or belt means

That would be interesting to see. Like I wrote, I'm sure this is a long since solved problem but I would have been worthless as the original inventor, because I have trouble imagining a way of moving a measured amount of powder which does not depend on the density being constant.

On the other hand, if you fluff the powder a bit, maybe it reaches a minimum density which you can rely on in production?

[barone]

Went to Hobby Lobby today and saw a new Estes RTF rocket packaged the same as the Builder Series kits at Wal-Mart..........Sky Hawker.......$13.95

[LeeR]

Went to Hobby Lobby today and saw a new Estes RTF rocket packaged the same as the Builder Series kits at Wal-Mart..........Sky Hawker.......$13.95

I saw that, but when I saw RTF, that was the kiss of death for me, not to mention that it had a REALLY stupid name. I didn't even pick up the box for a closer look.

I did think of other similar names for it, and the ones I liked best were "Air Puker" and "Heavenly Hurler".

[barone]

(snip)........I did think of other similar names for it, and the ones I liked best were "Air Puker" and "Heavenly Hurler".
LMAO!

[barone]

Okay....I've been off forum for a while but has anyone been purchasing the new Classic Series kits? I just picked up the Satellite Interceptor and Hornet today using 40% off coupons at Hobby Lobby. I haven't opened them yet but.......

The quality of the material seems great. Tight grains on the balsa.

The parachute sucks. Nothing classic about a pre-assembled, non-printed orange parachute. I'm just glad I've got plenty of the "classic" Estes parachutes. But the header does say "Based on an original Estes design", not a re-issue of an original Estes design.

Still, I'm happy with my purchases. But will not be buying any without the 40% off coupons. Regular price for the Satellite Interceptor was $24.99 and $17.99 for the Hornet. They also had some kits based upon Centuri designs.....wish I could remember what they were called. Will probably try to pick those up next month.

[tbzep]

Okay....I've been off forum for a while but has anyone been purchasing the new Classic Series kits? I just picked up the Satellite Interceptor and Hornet today using 40% off coupons at Hobby Lobby. I haven't opened them yet but.......

The quality of the material seems great. Tight grains on the balsa.

The parachute sucks. Nothing classic about a pre-assembled, non-printed orange parachute. I'm just glad I've got plenty of the "classic" Estes parachutes. But the header does say "Based on an original Estes design", not a re-issue of an original Estes design.

Still, I'm happy with my purchases. But will not be buying any without the 40% off coupons. Regular price for the Satellite Interceptor was $24.99 and $17.99 for the Hornet. They also had some kits based upon Centuri designs.....wish I could remember what they were called. Will probably try to pick those up next month.

There's been a few build threads for them. There's a Photon Disruptor II thread that's been started recently and there have been a few S.I.'s built by folks here and on TRF. Most of the talk still centers on the anticipated Saturn V re-release, though. :rolleyes:

The HL in Jackson didn't have any as of a couple weeks ago, so I don't have any yet. In fact, they don't have much of anything. There's a spot about 3 ft. wide with all of their rockets, motors, and accessories, with several empty spaces and never more than a couple of anything.

As for the chutes, at least they aren't generic white anymore. I hope they go back to printed chutes soon. The worst thing about the pre-made chutes Kody and I have used is the really poor quality shroud line. We've had them break even with gentle deployments. They frizz up, prickly seeds get stuck in them, etc.

[Doug Sams]

I was in Hobby Lobby looking at some of the new stuff. What I saw looked like a great step towards mid-power _IF_ they had 24mm motor mounts in them. Otherwise, the were ready to go.

The Cosmic Explorer, $22, is BT-55, and would make a great high performance D/E rocket with a 24mm MMT in place of the 18. I compare it to the Cherokee-D. A little noseweight might be required.

The Reflector, $25, has a BT-50 lower section transitioning to BT-55 up top. Leave out the 18mm MMT and you've got a great D/E bird. Again, check the CP/CG to be sure.

The Super Neon, $17, is a tube-finned rocket with a BT-50 core tube. Again, leave out the 18mm MMT and you've got a great mid-power, tube-finned bird.

The Satellite Interceptor has lots of fin - it looks draggy - so leaving out the 18mm MMT and stuffing a D or E in the core BT-50 shouldn't pose any problems for stability or recovery (IMO).

Lastly (for the store I was in) the Photon Disruptor had a bottom BT-50 tube which steps up to BT-55. Leave out the 18mm MMT and you've got a great looking but draggy D/E bird.

Doug

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