What Estes needs to do to make money $$$

[Cohetero-negro]

Mike, John, and the other Estes employee who's name I can't remember (sorry),

You guys want to make $$$ in hard times, well I think I have the answer:

Drop RTF and make kids/adults BUILD again!

Now you might say, hey wait, we make a good income with kits that offer instant gratification ... those are 'idiot' kits and you don't want your base to be idiots.

Why are kits better? Because they are in INVESTMENT of a modeller's time and that person is more likely to be a repeat buyer. Why?

Well they have an almost full bottle of wood glue for building further kits.

They have a launcher they put together and want to use it again; folks remember when we used to wire our own launch controllers? I do.

A sense of accomplishment; what better moral and confidence builder when you take a tube, a few sheets of balsa, and a nose cone, and you make an object that operates (flys).

Look, so you go broke ... everyone does, and this 'too big to fail' crap is pure communism from the federal government. If you are going to fail, fail doing the right thing.

Dump the plastic , one-time-used-then-fogotten products, and make people invest in your product. Offer the outfits with paint, sandpaper, and glue in them. That was the greatest idea Estes made back in the day. It was an INVESTMENT and not just 15 min of amazement then back to the Playstation.

Bring back the Alpha and Big Bertha's in outfits ... you will sell millions of them. Don't make the scale people happy cause that WILL drive you into banlruptcy; sorry fellow scale guys but we can do things for ourselves and don't need Estes.

Try to make kits not too hard but not too easy. Centuri Fibre fins are perfect for the first time builders; the fins are smooth and it looks like the packaging; that is how I would build my first models.

Then for skill level 2+, they can learn about that smelly Sand 'n Sealer. Make gliders; piggy back, and then a decent B/G ... that Eagle thing is a waste and I have seen far too many people turned off by it. A water downed Falcon is great ... maybe out of plastic for the fuse, and then foam for air surfaces; You guys used to have some foam gliders that were awesome ... haven't seen them in over 30 years.

Who cares if it is a 'sucky' glider ... you just want the modeller to expience a successful glider flight with forward motion of the glider. Make the foam dense so that it doesn't fly apart like the Eagle ... if it stays up only 30 secs, that is 30 secs of joy and the modeller will reload her glider and send it back up over and over again ... $$$ on every motor!

Streamline your motors:

No need for the B14 again as that would only drive up the prices. B14 = make the motor and then redrill the nozzel/grain manually only brings the price and danger up! Just go with a B8 again.

Here is what you should make in motors:

13mm

A10-0T Get that mini-two-stager in the air fast

A10-3T - dump it. I would never use it as it is a lower perfornamce than the A3

A3-2t - Small Gliders

A3-4t - Sport/comp models

A3-6t - high performance

1/4 and 1/2 is up to the type of kits you are marketing ... I personally don't use them unless required in NAR competition (1/2A3-6t for PD and Alt, but again its a VERY small market).

18mm

1/2 A ... again I never use them. If I am testing a model, I just use a 13 mm motor with adapter... why? Because its cheaper for me to buy 4 13mm than 3 18mm.

A8-3/5 Why? Because the 3 seconds is too short for some of the small models. You want a longer delay to 'soften' the ejection forces and to allow successful recovery of the model. Why? Because the flier can pick her model up and place yet another motor in it. Why? Because you make most of your money not from kit sales but from motor sales. Vernon realized this at the beginning and that is why he gave kits away! The real money was the sell of the motors!

B6-2/4/6 No changes needed here.

B4-6 Interesting. I have had B4-4 shred models yet the B6 was not a problem. The B4 has a higher kick in my experience. I would love the B4-6 motor in B Streamer Duration.

B8-4/8 Again SD and heavier models that need that 'spring' off the pad.

C6-5/7. I have a box of C6-3s, that I will never use ... can I trade them in for C6-5/7's?

D12-3/5/7 OK ... again this is a motor I really don't use ... If I need a "D" I go Aerotech ... sorry. Now an Estes 18mm D, say a D8 or D10 to compete with the 'other guy' would be perfect!

Don't go HPR because that isn't what Estes is all about. Do what you do best, and that is low power... again, HPR people know how to do things themselves, so you aren't going to make the money with them as you would with low power.

OK guys, that was my honest and sincere letter to you and your marketing people. You want to put Estes back in the forefront of rocketry, this is all you have to do. Clones are nice, and so are re-releases, but with the CNC you have today, you can really create new kits.

Maybe even some static models and spacecraft. You can do injection molding so why not Satellite and Sci-Fi creations? Everything you make, doesn't have to fly ... some of it can mearly look like its going to fly ... we can do the rest and make it fly :)

Good luck to the new Estes.

Jonathan

[STRMan]

I applaud your enthusiasm, but there is a lot of stuff you suggest that I simply disagree with. I just don't have the time for a proper response right now, so I will see what others think of your plan for success when I log on this evening.

Still, I think it is great that you took so much time to formulate such a detailed manifesto.

[Cohetero-negro]

I applaud your enthusiasm, but there is a lot of stuff you suggest that I simply disagree with. I just don't have the time for a proper response right now, so I will see what others think of your plan for success when I log on this evening.

Still, I think it is great that you took so much time to formulate such a detailed manifesto.

STR,

Not a problem. Took me 10 minutes to write it and then 20 min to edit it!

Looking forward to seeing your opinions!

Jonathan

P.s. Its an Estes Manifesto and NOT a Communist Manifesto!

[Jerry Irvine]

I want to propose another version of the above. The availability of an instant gratification product was a boon for sales and profits. One should not forsake good business on principal that Estes got its start as a mail order hobby company selling everything including modeling knives and paints.

The thing that is very different now is the information transmission system and the distribution system is quite different.

I feel what is needed is a constant lean to sidegrade or lightly upgrade convenience rocketeers to moderately crafty ones or more widespread convenience assets with which to use motors.

The entire Estes business model is the consumption of motors where the primary profit is.

If one were to make more cluster rockets a fad and easier to reliably operate that would go a long way. A scheme to increase the launch rate per hour would help, since launch fever tends to motivate people to consume motors right to their budget limit.

But the main thing we lack now we had before was institutionalized rocket sales and operations and recruitment. I have forwarded some specifics to NAR President Barber on this topic which he might choose to delve into.

TARC has been a truly wonderful program, but lacks the mass-market appeal a company like Estes can rely on for staying in business. TARC is boutique, and niche and provides smaller vendors a business base.

What is needed is a new program that generates a million launchings in the first year. I have made a specific, actionable, well tested proposal to the proper chain of command.

In the mean time Estes themselves can focus on sidegrading and mild upgrading its existing mass-merchandise customers. It can also institute a program to reinvigorate past customers back into the fold. BAR's to be sure, but without the 10-20 year gestation period.

The prior Estes F product failed in the marketplace because its existing customer and dealer base didn't understand it and not enough people were bleeding edge consumers to save it long enough for others to come on board. Also there was personal conflict between Steele and Tunik and Tunik won. You know, the OWNER of the company.

Jerry

[blackshire]

Well, let's see here...Mike, John, and the other Estes employee who's name I can't remember (sorry),

You guys want to make $$$ in hard times, well I think I have the answer:

Drop RTF and make kids/adults BUILD again!It depends on what kind of RTF rockets they offer. Estes did well with their 13 mm mini motor powered "Firing Line" starter sets (Vampire, Banshee, and X-15, whose rockets were also available separately), which "whet kids' appetites" for bigger and better rockets. These and the RTF A.L.C.M. (cruise missile) would be popular in RTF starter sets, although I would sell them with Mini Launch Pads (the kind in the Moon Mutt Starter Sets) and Electron Beam launch controllers.Now you might say, hey wait, we make a good income with kits that offer instant gratification ... those are 'idiot' kits and you don't want your base to be idiots.

Why are kits better? Because they are in INVESTMENT of a modeller's time and that person is more likely to be a repeat buyer. Why?

Well they have an almost full bottle of wood glue for building further kits.

They have a launcher they put together and want to use it again; folks remember when we used to wire our own launch controllers? I do.

A sense of accomplishment; what better moral and confidence builder when you take a tube, a few sheets of balsa, and a nose cone, and you make an object that operates (flys).Agreed.Look, so you go broke ... everyone does, and this 'too big to fail' crap is pure communism from the federal government. If you are going to fail, fail doing the right thing.I'm with you philosophically, but shareholders aren't too keen on being asked to "fall on their swords."Dump the plastic , one-time-used-then-fogotten products, and make people invest in your product.If you're referring to the 18 mm motor powered RTF rockets, I have no argument here. I'd restrict RTF rockets to 13 mm power for lower cost, smaller required flying field sizes, and as an incentive for kids to *build* the higher-powered "A" - "D" powered rockets.Offer the outfits with paint, sandpaper, and glue in them. That was the greatest idea Estes made back in the day. It was an INVESTMENT and not just 15 min of amazement then back to the Playstation.YES! Guillow's does this with their Goldwing "Build-n-Fly" glider kit (they even use skill levels)--this beginners' glider kit comes with a 1.25 fluid ounce bottle of Elmer's Glue-All and sandpaper, which can be used for subsequent models in their series of educational model airplane kits.Bring back the Alpha and Big Bertha's in outfits ... you will sell millions of them. Don't make the scale people happy cause that WILL drive you into banlruptcy; sorry fellow scale guys but we can do things for ourselves and don't need Estes.Now h-o-l-d on thar, Babalooey! What is wrong with the simpler, high-performance scale kits such as the (ESTES) Aerobee 300, WAC Corporal, Nike-Ajax, Sandhawk, and V-2 and the (CENTURI) MX-774, I.Q.S.Y. Tomahawk, Honest John, and Nike-Smoke? (There are numerous other simple scale, sport scale, semi-scale, and scale-like kits from both companies, but these are among the best-known ones.)

I presume you're referring to the large, complex, and more expensive scale kits (Saturn 5, Saturn IB, AQM-37, etc.). I can see your point here, as they sell in smaller numbers, BUT...Estes could simply--as I imagine they did in the old days--produce these kits in smaller quantities per production run than, say, Alphas and Big Berthas. (They could more cheaply purchase several years' worth of the parts for these large scale kits and "kit" them as needed.)Try to make kits not too hard but not too easy. Centuri Fibre fins are perfect for the first time builders; the fins are smooth and it looks like the packaging; that is how I would build my first models.Amen--Long Live Beveridge Board! (That's the industry name for the fibre fin material.) I love the stuff. As long as fins aren't too narrow (in planform) or too downward-protuding (or affixed to extremely heavy rockets), it works just fine as an easy-to-use fin material. For BT-5/ST-5 to BT-50/ST-10 size rockets, it's ideal.Then for skill level 2+, they can learn about that smelly Sand 'n Sealer. Make gliders; piggy back, and then a decent B/G ... that Eagle thing is a waste and I have seen far too many people turned off by it. A water downed Falcon is great ... maybe out of plastic for the fuse, and then foam for air surfaces; You guys used to have some foam gliders that were awesome ... haven't seen them in over 30 years.

Who cares if it is a 'sucky' glider ... you just want the modeller to expience a successful glider flight with forward motion of the glider. Make the foam dense so that it doesn't fly apart like the Eagle ... if it stays up only 30 secs, that is 30 secs of joy and the modeller will reload her glider and send it back up over and over again ... $$$ on every motor!The Estes foam Space Shuttle would be an excellent ARTF (Almost Ready-To-Fly) boost-glider, and the Estes Manta and F-22 could constitute the next, simple step up from it. After seeing the potential of B/Gs from these kits, kids could tackle the Falcon or (Centuri-origin) Swift, or perhaps the Sky Dart kit.Streamline your motors:

No need for the B14 again as that would only drive up the prices. B14 = make the motor and then redrill the nozzel/grain manually only brings the price and danger up! Just go with a B8 again.I'll go along with that.Here is what you should make in motors:

13mm

A10-0T Get that mini-two-stager in the air fast

A10-3T - dump it. I would never use it as it is a lower perfornamce than the A3Huh? The A10-3T always punched my Gnomes up higher than the A3-4T. (An extemely light model might slow down more rapidly due to the greater drag from the A10's faster boost.)A3-2t - Small Gliders

A3-4t - Sport/comp models

A3-6t - high performanceI'd like to see the A3-6T return, too, as an upper stage motor and for use in light single-stage models.1/4 and 1/2 is up to the type of kits you are marketing ... I personally don't use them unless required in NAR competition (1/2A3-6t for PD and Alt, but again its a VERY small market).The 1/4A3-4T would be useful for the upper stages of two-stage models, and the lower-powered 1/2A3-0T and A3-0T booster motors used with the 1/4A3-4T would make small-field two-stage flights (which would be useful for schools as well as individual model rocketeers) a practical proposition.18mm

1/2 A ... again I never use them. If I am testing a model, I just use a 13 mm motor with adapter... why? Because its cheaper for me to buy 4 13mm than 3 18mm.The 1/2A6-2 is a good motor for flying high-performance boost-gliders from small fields and for flying sport models on windy days, especially from small fields. The 1/2A6-4 is a good upper stage motor for small-field/windy-day two-stage flights.A8-3/5 Why? Because the 3 seconds is too short for some of the small models. You want a longer delay to 'soften' the ejection forces and to allow successful recovery of the model. Why? Because the flier can pick her model up and place yet another motor in it. Why? Because you make most of your money not from kit sales but from motor sales. Vernon realized this at the beginning and that is why he gave kits away! The real money was the sell of the motors!Heartily agreed! The A8-5 should be offered in motor bulk packs, as it is an ideal motor for bulk-packaged high-performance educational rocket kits such as the Viking and Wizard.B6-2/4/6 No changes needed here.

B4-6 Interesting. I have had B4-4 shred models yet the B6 was not a problem. The B4 has a higher kick in my experience. I would love the B4-6 motor in B Streamer Duration.

B8-4/8 Again SD and heavier models that need that 'spring' off the pad.

C6-5/7. I have a box of C6-3s, that I will never use ... can I trade them in for C6-5/7's?

D12-3/5/7 OK ... again this is a motor I really don't use ... If I need a "D" I go Aerotech ... sorry. Now an Estes 18mm D, say a D8 or D10 to compete with the 'other guy' would be perfect!I rarely use "D" motors myself, but judging from their rate of disappearance from the motor wall-hanger display at my local Michaels Arts & Crafts store, they are popular motors.Don't go HPR because that isn't what Estes is all about. Do what you do best, and that is low power... again, HPR people know how to do things themselves, so you aren't going to make the money with them as you would with low power.Yep--that's what Aerotech is for.OK guys, that was my honest and sincere letter to you and your marketing people. You want to put Estes back in the forefront of rocketry, this is all you have to do. Clones are nice, and so are re-releases, but with the CNC you have today, you can really create new kits.

Maybe even some static models and spacecraft. You can do injection molding so why not Satellite and Sci-Fi creations? Everything you make, doesn't have to fly ... some of it can mearly look like its going to fly ... we can do the rest and make it fly :)How about plastic models of launch vehicles, sounding rockets, and missiles that can be readily converted for flight if the builder desires? Centuri also carried rocketry-related plastic model kits and even Jetex products.

[Sunward]

....Drop RTF and make kids/adults BUILD again!
....
Jonathan, lots of work. But reality is different.

The trend is to RTF for all hobby products. Just look at trains. When was the last time you saw a train piece (engine or car) that was in a kit form that had to built and painted? How many of them are fully assembled and fully painted?

Stores do not even want to carry kit R/C planes. They only want to carry RTF and ARF planes.

Of course, the money is in engines. My understanding is they remain in production only if they meet a certain yearly sales figure. So if it is a specialty engine with low sales, it won't be made.

[John Brohm]

Well I'm not so sure. This line of reasoning is positioned in the context that a stronger move towards the kit business is a strong way to reinvigorate the hobby, attract new people, expand the market, and usher in the Renaissance of Model Rocketry. And perhaps it might.

Many of the suggestions made so far make good tactical sense, and might well leverage some further incremental sales. But as strategic suggestions they might fall a bit short - kit building has its greatest relevance to our generation - that was part of the environment in which we grew up, and in the case of rocketry, with most of the science still in front of us at the time, it was a hobby fueled by wonder, imagination, science fiction, the Space Race, and the notion that just about anything could be possible. We wanted to have our share of that, and building model rocket kits was a way to participate in all of that. But it's old science now (heck, we can't even decide whether we should want to, or wish to, go back to the Moon, or try for Mars), and our kids are looking towards the next technological horizon.

As for kit building, I suspect it's our demographic segment that's the largest buyer of this form of entertainment, and this is reflected not only in rocketry, but in plastic models, R/C, and so forth. Comparing an R/C mag from ten years ago to one of today, and what we find is an explosion of Almost Ready to Fly aircraft. ARFs have made it easier for those people interested in the operational aspect of the hobby to get into the air quickly, and have provided the means to be "in the hobby" for those people whose lives (work/young families/business travel/other life complications) are otherwise constrained time-wise. Making more kits available, even if the distribution channels could make kits available at virtually every door step, doesn't undo the manner in which people have adapted to the social, lifestyle, and technological evolution that has occurred in typical family life over the past 30 years. It's a different world now, and I suspect them that like to build kits already are.

Like most markets, model rocketry will grow in a manner proportional to its relevance to the consumer. As had been mentioned, programs like TARC have had a marked impact because they are a way of making the hobby relevant to people that are either looking for, or have a requirement to fulfill, a creative and demanding technical challenge. Our challenge as a hobby, as an organization like NAR, and as manufacturers like Estes, is to divine additional ways to drive that relevance. Without it, the hobby will eventually occupy the same space as black-smithing and other important technologies that have nevertheless been overtaken by time and the changing interests and priorities of Society. Perhaps changing the product line up and kit content can help, but it's doubtful that these are sustaining or growth actions.

Easy to say, hard to do (and even harder to divine), but if we think that kit building (and its corollary, scratch-building, which is kind of central to NAR activity) is essential to the future of the hobby, then we need to come up with the factors that would induce this kind of interest in the community, and entice new people to try. We are competing for disposable income, and unless this hobby finds a way to be more relevant than other interests and activities, then its growth will be limited, no matter how awesome the kit releases are coming out of Penrose.

[scigs30]

Estes is doing a wonderful job, and I hope they don't change a thing. Sure, if enough costumers ask for a certain product, then maybe consider it. But for now I don't see any major issues. Good work Estes. I have said it over and over, not everyone is going to be happy will all aspects of Estes, but they have been listening. I would love to see Estes go back to brown body tubes and glassine coated engine tubes, but that is small potatoes in my book. I have and will continue to purchase new kits that Estes comes out with. I am happy when I walk into a hobby store and see a large selection of Estes kits to choose from, a few years ago this was not the case. The employees at the stores have informed me these kits sell faster than they can stock them. One thing is for sure, the RTF kits sell better at the stores than the build kits. I am hoping that the people that buy the RTF kits enjoy them so much that they come back to the stores looking to move up and buy kits. Then from there keep advancing and buy more advance kits online from other vendors.

[LeeR]

Cohetero-negro,

I personally would like to see less emphasis on the design and creation of NEW RTFs, but they already exist, so Estes would be insane to drop them completely. If a product sells, and especially if it really sells, you keep selling it!

Returns of the Classics helps keep a lot of us older modelers interested, when we see old favorites available again. I think the Classics were a result of us telling Estes awhile back what we hoped to see in the future. I still have lots of Semroc kits on my "To Buy" list, and plan to support the many smaller suppliers, but there are just some Estes kits I MUST have. Return of scale is important to many of us, so I disagree wholeheartedly on that issue. And it does not have to be lots of brand new designs, since there are plenty of old Estes and Centuri kits that can come back to welcoming buyers, although maybe retooling for some might be required, and tougher, such as the 1/45 Little Joe II. I never has a Maxi Pershing, and want an Estes one. I never had the Interceptor as a kid, so I'll only say I own a lifetime's worth of both models ... I'm going to be really busy building them in retirement.

I think Estes is doing a lot of great things right now, and more than I ever expected when we heard rumors last year that the company was up for sale. The best thing is for all of us to voice our desires (yours is fine, it is what you desire. I just happen to disagree on some points). Let's all provide input to Estes Marketing, they have shown that they are receptive to forum member feedback, and chances are pretty good most of us will be pleased with something new in the coming months, and BUY! The key is to buy, because if Estes is not successful, we could lose a major force in the hobby, and the major supplier of motors. Without an Estes, the other vendors will suffer too.

[Jerry Irvine]

Of course, the money is in engines. My understanding is they remain in production only if they meet a certain yearly sales figure. So if it is a specialty engine with low sales, it won't be made.
The worst selling "engine" (motor) makes more "profit" then an average selling kit.

The only reason to discontinue a motor is to reduce "consumer and dealer confusion". Look at it this way. It's amazing how many motor and kit SKU's there are. Be grateful and amazed.

Jerry

13mm
A3-0,3,6T
B3-0,3,6T
24mm
D40-0-3,7,11
18mm
B14-0,3,7
D5-0,2.2

[o1d_dude]

I've said this before.

Estes should re-release the following kits.

1. Fat Boy
2. Omega
3. Cherokee D
4. Goblin
5. Maxi Alpha III

And GM should start making 57' Chevys again.

There. Two economic stimulus packages in one post.

[Jerry Irvine]

I've said this before.

Estes should re-release the following kits.

1. Fat Boy
2. Omega
3. Cherokee D
4. Goblin
5. Maxi Alpha III

And GM should start making 57' Chevys again.

There. Two economic stimulus packages in one post.
Yes.

Cineroc II (digital HD)

Jerry

[chrism]

Mike, John, and the other Estes employee who's name I can't remember (sorry),

You guys want to make $$$ in hard times, well I think I have the answer:

Drop RTF and make kids/adults BUILD again!

Now you might say, hey wait, we make a good income with kits that offer instant gratification ... those are 'idiot' kits and you don't want your base to be idiots.

Why are kits better? Because they are in INVESTMENT of a modeller's time and that person is more likely to be a repeat buyer. Why?

Well they have an almost full bottle of wood glue for building further kits.

They have a launcher they put together and want to use it again; folks remember when we used to wire our own launch controllers? I do.

A sense of accomplishment; what better moral and confidence builder when you take a tube, a few sheets of balsa, and a nose cone, and you make an object that operates (flys).

Look, so you go broke ... everyone does, and this 'too big to fail' crap is pure communism from the federal government. If you are going to fail, fail doing the right thing.

Dump the plastic , one-time-used-then-fogotten products, and make people invest in your product. Offer the outfits with paint, sandpaper, and glue in them. That was the greatest idea Estes made back in the day. It was an INVESTMENT and not just 15 min of amazement then back to the Playstation.

Bring back the Alpha and Big Bertha's in outfits ... you will sell millions of them. Don't make the scale people happy cause that WILL drive you into banlruptcy; sorry fellow scale guys but we can do things for ourselves and don't need Estes.

Try to make kits not too hard but not too easy. Centuri Fibre fins are perfect for the first time builders; the fins are smooth and it looks like the packaging; that is how I would build my first models.

Then for skill level 2+, they can learn about that smelly Sand 'n Sealer. Make gliders; piggy back, and then a decent B/G ... that Eagle thing is a waste and I have seen far too many people turned off by it. A water downed Falcon is great ... maybe out of plastic for the fuse, and then foam for air surfaces; You guys used to have some foam gliders that were awesome ... haven't seen them in over 30 years.

Who cares if it is a 'sucky' glider ... you just want the modeller to expience a successful glider flight with forward motion of the glider. Make the foam dense so that it doesn't fly apart like the Eagle ... if it stays up only 30 secs, that is 30 secs of joy and the modeller will reload her glider and send it back up over and over again ... $$$ on every motor!

Streamline your motors:

No need for the B14 again as that would only drive up the prices. B14 = make the motor and then redrill the nozzel/grain manually only brings the price and danger up! Just go with a B8 again.

Here is what you should make in motors:

13mm

A10-0T Get that mini-two-stager in the air fast

A10-3T - dump it. I would never use it as it is a lower perfornamce than the A3

A3-2t - Small Gliders

A3-4t - Sport/comp models

A3-6t - high performance

1/4 and 1/2 is up to the type of kits you are marketing ... I personally don't use them unless required in NAR competition (1/2A3-6t for PD and Alt, but again its a VERY small market).

18mm

1/2 A ... again I never use them. If I am testing a model, I just use a 13 mm motor with adapter... why? Because its cheaper for me to buy 4 13mm than 3 18mm.

A8-3/5 Why? Because the 3 seconds is too short for some of the small models. You want a longer delay to 'soften' the ejection forces and to allow successful recovery of the model. Why? Because the flier can pick her model up and place yet another motor in it. Why? Because you make most of your money not from kit sales but from motor sales. Vernon realized this at the beginning and that is why he gave kits away! The real money was the sell of the motors!

B6-2/4/6 No changes needed here.

B4-6 Interesting. I have had B4-4 shred models yet the B6 was not a problem. The B4 has a higher kick in my experience. I would love the B4-6 motor in B Streamer Duration.

B8-4/8 Again SD and heavier models that need that 'spring' off the pad.

C6-5/7. I have a box of C6-3s, that I will never use ... can I trade them in for C6-5/7's?

D12-3/5/7 OK ... again this is a motor I really don't use ... If I need a "D" I go Aerotech ... sorry. Now an Estes 18mm D, say a D8 or D10 to compete with the 'other guy' would be perfect!

Don't go HPR because that isn't what Estes is all about. Do what you do best, and that is low power... again, HPR people know how to do things themselves, so you aren't going to make the money with them as you would with low power.

OK guys, that was my honest and sincere letter to you and your marketing people. You want to put Estes back in the forefront of rocketry, this is all you have to do. Clones are nice, and so are re-releases, but with the CNC you have today, you can really create new kits.

Maybe even some static models and spacecraft. You can do injection molding so why not Satellite and Sci-Fi creations? Everything you make, doesn't have to fly ... some of it can mearly look like its going to fly ... we can do the rest and make it fly :)

Good luck to the new Estes.

Jonathan
I agree with some or your sentiments, especially when it comes to RTF rockets. I can see Estes having a few so that new people to model rocketry can start from there. As one's skills increase, so should the level of difficulty increase. I am thankful that Semroc is offering the classics in the Retro Repro line and I hope they continue to do so, as this fulfill a need for us BARs who like to rebuild those cool looking rockets from our youth. I am glad to see other rocket companies such as Fliskits, Squirrel Works, Custom, and even Quest are putting out the rockets today that could have easily been in a Estes catalog 25-30 years ago. Overall, I do like what Estes is doing right now under new ownership and I hope they will bring back the classics as well as design new classics.

[JumpJet]

The simple answer to the original post that started this thread is, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like.

Some people like kits, some people like RTF's. Some people like the color red while others like the color green.

The simple fact is there isn't a black or white answer to what will sell, instead the answer contains a thousand shades of gray instead.


John Boren
Estes R&D

[Jerry Irvine]

The simple answer to the original post that started this thread is, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like.

Some people like kits, some people like RTF's. Some people like the color red while others like the color green.

The simple fact is there isn't a black or white answer to what will sell, instead the answer contains a thousand shades of gray instead.


John Boren
Estes R&D
Yes. You have the unique ability to look at the numbers that are current reality and bias public opinion to that fact. Employ that.

Further, you alone have the production capacity and motive to substantially increase local or national demand or access. Employ that.

If you feel constrained in any way from that, please reach out, and if you are confused as to who, choose someone who was part of the machine when/where sales were more than double today in unit percapita terms, so if that were approximated, revenues would more than double.

Just Jerry

[blackshire]

Yes. You have the unique ability to look at the numbers that are current reality and bias public opinion to that fact. Employ that.

Further, you alone have the production capacity and motive to substantially increase local or national demand or access. Employ that.

If you feel constrained in any way from that, please reach out, and if you are confused as to who, choose someone who was part of the machine when/where sales were more than double today in unit terms, so if that were approximated, revenues would more than double.

Just JerryEstes' (and Centuri's) aggressive-yet-supportive marketing to youth and youth-oriented market sectors (schools, Scouts, 4-H, etc.) in the 1960s, 1970s, and (to a lesser extent) the 1980s created many new young (and adult) customers and sustained these market sectors for many years by constantly asking them "What do you need?" Also, exclusive specialty youth group kits such as Centuri's Akela-1 (aimed at Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts) and Estes' Cadet (made for the Young Astronauts) helped nurture children's sense of being part of special organizations that rewarded their dedication and effort.

Estes could recoup their youth market share by again marketing model rocketry to schools as they did before, this time with new supporting products such as model rocketry software and electronic payload modules whose flight data could be downloaded into classroom computers. They could also market exclusive model rocket kits and educational materials to the Scouts, the Young Astronauts, and 4-H (who have never had an official model rocket kit).

[raohara]

Don't make the scale people happy cause that WILL drive you into banlruptcy; ...
I've been selling OOP kits on eBay going on five months now. Unlike some of my kits, the scale stuff ALWAYS sells and the prices I get for them are VERY GOOD to EXCELLENT. Based on my experience I say that Estes should bring at least some of them back into production.

- Rich

[raohara]

The simple fact is there isn't a black or white answer to what will sell, instead the answer contains a thousand shades of gray instead.

John Boren
Estes R&D
I have over 75 different kits that were discontinued between 1995 and 2005. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have been selling them on eBay for the last five months and I now have a pretty good idea which kits sell and which ones don't. While I may not have a black and white answer as to what will or will not sell, I can at least reduce the number of gray shades down to a manageable number.

- Rich

[STRMan]

Well, most of the points I was thinking about when I first read this thread have been made. I'd like to add that while I LOVE building kits, (the more complex the better) and I also love launching rockets, I HATE losing them.

That is where the RTF's come in for me. Before I put up one of the birds I've spent countless hours gluing, sanding, painting, sanding, painting, sanding, painting... (you get the idea), I launch a similar sized and powered RTF. I'm not sure if this is to first judge the winds, or as a sacrifice to the RET Gods (maybe a little of both), but I can then make adjustments to my launch angle to insure recovery of my hand built rockets.

Sometimes, I just get the itch to launch a few, and no time to go to the local middle school field, so I take a few RTFs out in the backyard and try to land them between my house and the tree line behind my house in front of the lake. It is way too short in that dimension for me to risk a rocket I worked on for a long time.

I would love to see more booster engines from Estes. With smaller and smaller fields out there, we could really use a 1/2A6-0 booster and a 1/2A6-4 sustainer. Every launch would burn 2 engines, making for more engines sales. The problem with the higher impulse booster, sustainer combos today is after 1 launch, you loose your rocket and give up on multistage rockets.

More cluster models would also meet the goal of burning more engines. If they want to do this, they should also come out with a launch controller that has battery clips on it and thicker wires for igniting clusters without having to go to a competitor to get reliable ignition.

[luke strawwalker]

More cluster models would also meet the goal of burning more engines. If they want to do this, they should also come out with a launch controller that has battery clips on it and thicker wires for igniting clusters without having to go to a competitor to get reliable ignition.

Like make the "E" launch controller what it SHOULD have been from the start-- lamp cord leads, external battery connections, and please, please, PLEASE ditch the stupid light bulbs in all the controllers and put LED's in there for pity's sake!

Later! OL JR :)

[scigs30]

The simple answer to the original post that started this thread is, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like.

Some people like kits, some people like RTF's. Some people like the color red while others like the color green.

The simple fact is there isn't a black or white answer to what will sell, instead the answer contains a thousand shades of gray instead.


John Boren
Estes R&D
I agree 100%.

[hcmbanjo]

"Drop RTF and make kids/adults BUILD again!"
Many on the forums asked for that and Estes is did it bringing back the Classic line of kits.
They're balsa and buildable. Whats' to complain about? You're getting what you asked for.
Estes (and every company that makes RTF R/C planes and R/C cars) will also make what sells.

"- those are 'idiot' kits and you don't want your base to be idiots."
Who are you calling idiots? Everybody on the forum?
We probably all started with a simple model. Maybe not RTF, but simple. I didn't stay with simple very long.

Somewhere it was posted, Lee Piester said the Centuri scale kits didn't ever sell very well compaired to their sport models.
If you buy enough Estes Saturn Vs, other scale kits might follow.

"You want to put Estes back in the forefront of rocketry, -"
Estes is still the forefront in rocketry sales.
I know what you are trying to say. You want to see them in the forefront of rocketry innovation.
Once again, if they could guarantee enough sales of cutting edge products they might make them.

The B14 engine won't be coming back. but, A10-0, A8-0 and C11s are.

Estes and other vendors are listening.
If you'd like them to listen more, quit complaining about their positive moves and show your support of the direction they are going.

[Carl@Semroc]

... other vendors are listening. Closely. ;)
Great thread.

[ghrocketman]

Maybe if Estes does not want our B14 business, possibly ANOTHER vendor will step in to prove them wrong that it is NOT a low sales volume motor NOW like it was 35 years ago when everybody thought it would exist forever.
I would REALLY like to see another vendor step in and produce motors that a need actually exists for, not what the other BP engine maker does and either gives us more of the same or motors that are low-thrust that nobody really asked for anyway.

[gpoehlein]

Ok - my 2 cents:

I don't mind RTF models being out there - if it gets someone interested enough to try flying rockets, maybe they'll graduate to ARF kits. I like the ARF (E2X) kits myself - there are times when I want to build a rocket but don't feel like painting it. The pre-decorated E2X kits fill that need nicely (that's also why I like building paper models, but that's neither here nor there).

As for the motors - I have some of every motor currently in production and several that are no longer in production. I don't have any of the high thrust motors (B14, B8, C5) and wish that I did. However, I would hate to lose many of the motors that are still here. Many of them may not be great for sport flying, but would be sorely missed in contest flying. (Good example - anyone fly 4A Cluster this past year? The now discontinued but still contest legal A10PT was a very sought after motor. When it slips off contest cert it WILL be missed for a certain few events.) And, true - the 1/4A3-3 is a pretty anemic motor with a real compromise delay, but how would you fly 1/4A NAR event without it? Yes, I'd like to see it go back to the original 1/4A3-2 and 1/4A3-4 configuration (the shorter delay would work better for BG) but to just say we don't need it is short sighted. Besides - try a Quark/220 Swift/Mosquito with nothing but A10-3T motors - at least with the 1/4A you have a chance to get it back!

And I LIKE the B4-2 and B4-4 - in certain contest events they are the perfect motor and will give better performance than a B6-2 or B6-4. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing the venerable A8-3/5 reconfigured into an even more useful A8-2, A8-4 and A8-6 - although just adding an A8-2 to the 3 and 5 would probably suffice!

Greg

[Cohetero-negro]

Jonathan, lots of work. But reality is different.

The trend is to RTF for all hobby products. Just look at trains. When was the last time you saw a train piece (engine or car) that was in a kit form that had to built and painted? How many of them are fully assembled and fully painted?

Stores do not even want to carry kit R/C planes. They only want to carry RTF and ARF planes.

Of course, the money is in engines. My understanding is they remain in production only if they meet a certain yearly sales figure. So if it is a specialty engine with low sales, it won't be made.

Angello,

RTF is a fuction of cheap Chinese labor which is slowly going away.

Also, I believe that RTF is the major item sold because that is what distributors and retailers offer to the public. I believe people want kits!

lets look at HPR offerings: How many RTF "K" motor kits are there? How many RTF "G" motor kits are there? When I see people bringing their level 3 monsters to SSS meetings for show and tell, not a single one of them is a RTF bird. People want to build, they want to create! They want pride in accomplishment!

its like the mess media... we are lead to believe that Brad Pitt and Jo lee are important... but they really aren't. Its conditioning. Its brainwashing. Unless Jo lean is servicing me or fiixing my dinner, or paying my bills, she is of NO concern to me, but let her adopt an African baby and stop the press we must look. Its the same thing with RTF. If hobby shops sell nothing but RTF, then we the consumer become 'adjusted' to buying RTF. Now let that RTF bird crash and few people know how to fix it because they have never cut out ribs, spars, stringers, LE and TE ... we are 'domesticated hobbiest' in the end.

I still buy kits and ARFs for different reasons, but I know where my roots are: Peck Polymers (used to be in Carson CA and as a child I would take RTD bus to Carson BLVD an walk down to their warehouse/store to purchase kits), I built Airtronics and Mark's Models planes. In my rocket life, the only RTF I have ever built was the Centuri Screaming Eagle and the Estes Alpha III. All other rockets have had balsa in them. RTF is not the final soultion, as it more a temporary fix.

Even the R/C car world is starting to go back to its roots. Car people are now starting to build their cars from the Chasis up. Yes, for the beginner an E-Maxx might be their first car, but if you talk to the long term Car hobbiest, they have more fun with hop-ups, and improving their cars just as they do with real sized cars. RTF is an illussion and propiganda by those distributors and dealers who just want to make a quick buck and think nothing about the long term.

Barry hated us, and what better way of hurting us by dumbing down the hobby with RTF and all the while raking in the $$$$!

No my friend RTF is an abonination of the human spirit.

I will let you in on a secret and don't take this the wrong way: I love building nude or semi-nude. Its not a sexual thing, but a tribal thing. I liken myself to primitive man and how our ancestors would sit by an open fire and work with flint, stone, and bone. When I am sanding parts, I think back and wonder what my ancestor from 10,000 years ago would think. Would he easily convert from spear head to nose cone? Would he see the relationship with smooth sanded fins of a rocket to those of feathers fletched to arrows? I think he and I would share many of the same fears: Is this joint strong enough to pierce the hide/atmospher? Is this strut strong enough to handle the forces of flight and impact? Where is the coffee that will keep me up and make my late night build worth the sacrifices from my wife? I however don't Dremel in the nude, and by nude I mean in underware and a t-shirt.

No, we are no different than our ancestors. We build a scale model, and we want to show it off the same way as a finely made shield or sword would be rushed over to the villigers for approval. We are no different.

So be gone with RTF, its an aboniation to all that is holy and against the human spirit.

Jonathan

[Doug Sams]

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing the venerable A8-3/5 reconfigured into an even more useful A8-2, A8-4 and A8-6...More useful still would be A8-2T, A8-4T and A8-6T :D (Or, more generically, Ax-2T, Ax-4T and Ax-6T).

Doug

.

[Cohetero-negro]

Estes is doing a wonderful job, and I hope they don't change a thing. Sure, if enough costumers ask for a certain product, then maybe consider it. But for now I don't see any major issues. Good work Estes. I have said it over and over, not everyone is going to be happy will all aspects of Estes, but they have been listening. I would love to see Estes go back to brown body tubes and glassine coated engine tubes, but that is small potatoes in my book. I have and will continue to purchase new kits that Estes comes out with. I am happy when I walk into a hobby store and see a large selection of Estes kits to choose from, a few years ago this was not the case. The employees at the stores have informed me these kits sell faster than they can stock them. One thing is for sure, the RTF kits sell better at the stores than the build kits. I am hoping that the people that buy the RTF kits enjoy them so much that they come back to the stores looking to move up and buy kits. Then from there keep advancing and buy more advance kits online from other vendors.

Scigs,

I was impressed with the Estes pressence at NARAM 52 ... I think that there might be a 2nd coming of model rocketry because of it.

I think Estes should focus not on us, but on the new generation. Why? Because they are the future Estes consumers. We can always clone. We can always get an Alps printer and a decal scan.

What current young rocketeers need are products that fit their needs and wishes.

Estes should produce a low coast altimeter rocket that has USB and Smart Phone connections for images and data... young fliers would buy that.

Estes might want to think about product lines have have a 'musical' connection: e.g. ,
Metallica Rockets, or NASCAR, or Pro-sports tie in. Model Airplane manufactures have such themed products; just thinking out loud folks, didn't say my ideas were good ones.

Global Warming is a the current 'boogey' man to exploit people ... well maybe a temperature rocket so that your child can see his/her coming destruction; OK that was a joke :P

Its a good thing that Estes is back. I really hated what it had become since the mid-1990's.

Jonathan

[stefanj]

I once cooked up a batch of polenta in the nude.

That did not go well.

The polenta turned out fine, but bubbling hot cornmeal spitting on belly flesh does sting a bit.

* * *

While I share Jonathan's dislike of RTF, I cannot deny that they have a function in the marketing ecosystem of a modern model rocketry company.

If one person in fifty who buys an RTF launch set from Wal-Mart gets hooked, and starts coming to launches, that's a victory of sorts.

The other forty nine . . . well, they helped Estes' bottom line a bit, allowing them to produce things like E9 motors and the Saturn V, which have very limited distribution (and likely sales margin) compared to most of the line.

I occasionally find RTF models and starter sets, often unopened, at thrift stores. I snap these up and give them to friends and co-workers. When there's a local OROC launch, I invite them. Very often, the sight of nicely built models is enough to tip them over into kit building.

* * *

NASCAR rockets? Probably cost an arm and a leg for the license, but it could work.

A "Bill Nye the Science Guy rocketry exploration set" might also fly.

And here is where the marketing ecosystem thing comes in. The NASCAR models would be RTF. Impulse buys for consumers.

The Bill Nye set would be for helicopter parents who want to enrich their kids' education. They could be sold on actually building things.

[Shreadvector]

More useful still would be A8-2T, A8-4T and A8-6T :D (Or, more generically, Ax-2T, Ax-4T and Ax-6T).

Doug

.

The following will be mostly correct. If I get anything wrong, those who were there can correct me.

Your Estes minin motors (13mm) are the direct descendents for the 1/4A3, 1/2A6, A5, B4 motors of the late 1960s and their English (pre-metric) equivalents. Why? Well, the motor casings were much thicker in the beginning and the smaller inside diameter would only accommodate a B motor. When the casing walls got thinner (with the .50 inside diameter), the B6 and C6 motors were born. When the thick walled casings were eliminated, the 1/2A6, A5 and B4 were re-engineered to use the .50 inside diameter thin walled casings and the 1/4A3 was not produced in the 18mm size (and the 18mm shorties went away). That is why that family of motors has the larger diameter nozzle throat (and uses the Yellow Plug). It gives you a slightly different peak thrust and sustaining thrust. Look at the actual curves on the NAR website.

Anyway, the mini motors are astoundingly similar to the original thick walled motors - they simply don't have the massive extra outer paper layers. Of course, such a thin walled casing means that a longer B motor in mini is a problem - as Centuri and MPC/AVI learned: they burned through the casing wall if they burned for longer than an A motor.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes711/711est84.html



For added fun, you've got the A10 mini motors. It's the mini version of the C5 motor.

By the way, there was room for a booster C motor in the old thick walled casing (the C.8-0) but there was no room left for a delay and ejection charge and paper cap.

[Cohetero-negro]

Estes' (and Centuri's) aggressive-yet-supportive marketing to youth and youth-oriented market sectors (schools, Scouts, 4-H, etc.) in the 1960s, 1970s, and (to a lesser extent) the 1980s created many new young (and adult) customers and sustained these market sectors for many years by constantly asking them "What do you need?" Also, exclusive specialty youth group kits such as Centuri's Akela-1 (aimed at Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts) and Estes' Cadet (made for the Young Astronauts) helped nurture children's sense of being part of special organizations that rewarded their dedication and effort.

Estes could recoup their youth market share by again marketing model rocketry to schools as they did before, this time with new supporting products such as model rocketry software and electronic payload modules whose flight data could be downloaded into classroom computers. They could also market exclusive model rocket kits and educational materials to the Scouts, the Young Astronauts, and 4-H (who have never had an official model rocket kit).

Blackshire,

Its VERY interesting that you mentioned schools ...

The following actually happened to me in the NARAM 52 hotel lobby, Saturday night pre-NARAM:

I had just played Frogger trying to get across the Freeway from the Hotel to a Kinkos on the other side only to find out that Kinkos had closed (I am used to them being open 24 x7). Coming back to the Hotel, I stopped in the lobby and attempted to print out my Scale Data packet on the Hotel computer. The CPU had no Word software so, I donwloaded Open Office and had to have the night manager give me administrative access to do so. We started talking and I was telling him about NAR and NARAM. During the conversation he stated that his first experience with model rocketry was through an Estes donation at his Pueblo school.

Estes had donated several dozen kits to low income kids and he never forgot that. he respected the Estes brand even though he hadn't flown a model rocket in years.

Now that is a cool ... well at least I think so.

I loved the fact that NARAM 52 host was taking donated rockets for this very same purpose. However, I still say that raw materials built into what ever is the greatest achievement for any hobbiest.

Jonathan

[Shreadvector]

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes66/66est42.html

Shows the original thick walled casing.

[Cohetero-negro]

The following will be mostly correct. If I get anything wrong, those who were there can correct me.

Your Estes minin motors (13mm) are the direct descendents for the 1/4A3, 1/2A6, A5, B4 motors of the late 1960s and their English (pre-metric) equivalents. Why? Well, the motor casings were much thicker in the beginning and the smaller inside diameter would only accommodate a B motor. When the casing walls got thinner (with the .50 inside diameter), the B6 and C6 motors were born. When the thick walled casings were eliminated, the 1/2A6, A5 and B4 were re-engineered to use the .50 inside diameter thin walled casings and the 1/4A3 was not produced in the 18mm size (and the 18mm shorties went away). That is why that family of motors has the larger diameter nozzle throat (and uses the Yellow Plug). It gives you a slightly different peak thrust and sustaining thrust. Look at the actual curves on the NAR website.

Anyway, the mini motors are astoundingly similar to the original thick walled motors - they simply don't have the massive extra outer paper layers. Of course, such a thin walled casing means that a longer B motor in mini is a problem - as Centuri and MPC/AVI learned: they burned through the casing wall if they burned for longer than an A motor.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes711/711est84.html



For added fun, you've got the A10 mini motors. It's the mini version of the C5 motor.

By the way, there was room for a booster C motor in the old thick walled casing (the C.8-0) but there was no room left for a delay and ejection charge and paper cap.


Fred,

I am NOT a motor designer. So with that said, is it possible to do the following:

Can there a BP reloadable motor in the same fashion as AP?

Estes coiuld come out with 13mm and 18mm casings. You chose the grains and the delay and there goes any more concerns for 6T, or 2T, or 1/4A or 1/2A.

Jonathan

[Jerry Irvine]

I am NOT a motor designer. So with that said, is it possible to do the following:
Can there a BP reloadable motor in the same fashion as AP?
In principal, yes. A reloadable using BATES grains relies on externally inhibited surfaces to achieve a nearly flat thrust curve. Something like that would have to be developed for BP. On the good side BP has a neutral burning rate vs. pressure curve. So nozzle size or Kn would adjust pressure, and efficiency but not so much mass-flow. A single motor style could be operated at two pressures, say 200 psi and 600 psi and the higher pressure version would have a higher ISP thus thrust. Maybe 30% more.

Jerry

[jetlag]

Jonathan,
I respect your opinion, as that is what it is, an opinion. I have to disagree with some of your thoughts on ARF's and RTF's, though.
Like you, I love to build. I have built several scale scratch-build R/C aircraft and have won awards for some. Big Whoop! I enjoyed the heck out of it, and it's always nice for peers to give kudos for a job well done. This is why we, here, like to show our projects and talk about their building. It is a passion, one we all enjoy on many different levels.
I have friends who HATE to build, but they are fully capable. We all had to learn the hard way, as there really was no quicker way to the field. Now that RTF and ARF have become a standard lexicon in today's hobby world, many choose to follow that route. So what? If their (or my) thing is to get in the air quickly (albeit, a satisfy me NOW mentality) what's the harm?
I have a 5 year old Godson that, after seeing the special on TV about the LRDS, wanted to fly a rocket. Since his birthday was some 2 weeks away, I bought him a 'Code Red' rocket and launcher (actually had it in my 'stash'). He loved it! We shot it off 9 times that day, along with some of my own. Sadly, it was lost in a huge oak when the 9th flight was with a C6-7. He is hooked!
He received 3 more ARF's for his birthday proper, and I even helped him 'build' a rocket from scratch that he squiggled the fins for on a piece of paper.
See where I'm headed here?
That 'Code Red' lit a fire under this little 5yo. Now, I can't say he's going to rocket school or anything like that, but he fit the niche you so much want to get rid of. His attention span will get better (I hope) as he ages, and everything he learns, he can trace back to that "Red Rocket."
I started when a friend gave me his Sprite, Skyhook, and a Bertha. I was 9yo. And, yes, these would have to be considered RTF's. Good thing, too, because my dad did not know how to build a rocket, either. But those 3 rockets formed the basis for my blooming passion for rockets and all things that fly. I used to eat, breathe and sleep rockets! The 1970 catalogue was one I had read cover to cover a zillion times. I took it to school and everywhere else. I drooled over its offerings. I mowed grass to get one or three of the neat ones! By the time I was 12, I knew everything there is to know about rockets! :D
Hooked, I was, and still am!
When you see a RTF or an ARF, just look away. It should not make one so upset and resentful as to poo-poo someone else not as talented as you are, or tell a company to quit selling them because you don't like them. To the purist, a RTF or ARF may seem like a cop-out on building. Maybe, but I doubt it.
As for comparing a LP RTF to what the HP guys have to do, that is like comparing a Volkswagen to a Ferrari. It is fallacious; there is little comparison between the two as they are so different. Besides, most HP guys I know got started with....wait for it....a LP rocket, most likely a RTF with its own launching system.
Imagine that!
It is how most folks get into this hobby, like it or not!
My 10 cents!

Allen

[Shreadvector]

Fred,

I am NOT a motor designer. So with that said, is it possible to do the following:

Can there a BP reloadable motor in the same fashion as AP?

Estes coiuld come out with 13mm and 18mm casings. You chose the grains and the delay and there goes any more concerns for 6T, or 2T, or 1/4A or 1/2A.

Jonathan

APCP is *NOT* an "explosive" as proven scinetifically and in court. Segments or pellets of APCP would be virtually useless to an "evildoer" attempting to make a destructive device.

BP is legally a "Low Explosive" and segments or pellets of it could easily be used by an "evildoer" to make a destructive device.

http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/explosive-storage-requirements.html

Imagine the dust that would accumulate in a "range box" or other storage area (sock drawer? workbench near tools or water heater or lawnmower?) of black powder pellets/segments. Black powder dust is very, very bad. Ask any of the survivors of the Cox model rocket motor making machine incident. They used pellets. BP dust went boom.

[jetlag]

Fred,
I still remember the horror I felt when I saw the grainy pictures of that poor fellow who was trying to make his own BP motors. He had his hand blown off or something. I remember thinking I would NEVER try to do that. I think it was in an Estes bulletin or catalogue or something.
Do you remember it?
Allen

[Shreadvector]

Fred,
I still remember the horror I felt when I saw the grainy pictures of that poor fellow who was trying to make his own BP motors. He had his hand blown off or something. I remember thinking I would NEVER try to do that. I think it was in an Estes bulletin or catalogue or something.
Do you remember it?
Allen

It's still there on the web.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/estes711/711est82.html

The second picture on that page is fragments of a CO2 cartridge, not fingers. There is a lot more blood with fingers.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/why00.html

[jetlag]

Yep! That's it! Many Thanks! Still gives me the shivers!

[Jerry Irvine]

It was propoganda and had the opposite effect intended to the target audience: regulators.

I once stacked all the copies of sheet sized version that I got by various mailings and things. It was about 2 reams.

Jerry

[gpoehlein]

The "Why Model Rocketry" booklet was an entertaining quick read that I had not seen before, Fred. Thanks for posting the link to it!

Greg

[Sunward]

Angelo,

RTF is a fuction of cheap Chinese labor which is slowly going away.

Also, I believe that RTF is the major item sold because that is what distributors and retailers offer to the public. I believe people want kits!....
No they don't. Most rocket buyers want the RTF so they can go and fly. If they stick around, they get into the nicer kits.

As for cheap labor, yes, it is true to a certain extent. But there are other countries in the world that also have cheap labor. But the producers make what sells. RTF sells.

....
lets look at HPR offerings: How many RTF "K" motor kits are there? How many RTF "G" motor kits are there? When I see people bringing their level 3 monsters to SSS meetings for show and tell, not a single one of them is a RTF bird. People want to build, they want to create! They want pride in accomplishment!....
You are comparing apples and oranges. HPR is a very small crowd. No manufacturer can offer to go and produce a RTF kit simple due to tooling costs.

.....I still buy kits and ARFs for different reasons....
No my friend RTF is an abonination of the human spirit. ....
So here you are calling for the end of RTF and ARF but you buy them?

.....No my friend RTF is an abonination of the human spirit. ....
Nope. They are here to stay. Part of the market place.

[Royatl]

It's still there on the web.


http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/why00.html

I always wondered about that drawing of Wan Hu going up in a cloud of smoke. What was that football shaped object with eyelashes coming out of the explosion above him?

[Shreadvector]

I always wondered about that drawing of Wan Hu going up in a cloud of smoke. What was that football shaped object with eyelashes coming out of the explosion above him?

The person you see is not Wan Hu, it is a servant lighting the rockets. The object above the servant's head is a hat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conical_Asian_hat

It can be converted to fly. Paging Bob Kaplow.....

[Royatl]

The person you see is not Wan Hu, it is a servant lighting the rockets. The object above the servant's head is a hat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conical_Asian_hat

It can be converted to fly. Paging Bob Kaplow.....


Ah. Now that it's been described as an asian hat, I can see it. Thank you!

Had the apex of the cone even just slightly broken the line of the oval of the rim, it would've been simple to recognize

[blackshire]

Blackshire,

Its VERY interesting that you mentioned schools ...

The following actually happened to me in the NARAM 52 hotel lobby, Saturday night pre-NARAM:

I had just played Frogger trying to get across the Freeway from the Hotel to a Kinkos on the other side only to find out that Kinkos had closed (I am used to them being open 24 x7). Coming back to the Hotel, I stopped in the lobby and attempted to print out my Scale Data packet on the Hotel computer. The CPU had no Word software so, I donwloaded Open Office and had to have the night manager give me administrative access to do so. We started talking and I was telling him about NAR and NARAM. During the conversation he stated that his first experience with model rocketry was through an Estes donation at his Pueblo school.

Estes had donated several dozen kits to low income kids and he never forgot that. he respected the Estes brand even though he hadn't flown a model rocket in years.

Now that is a cool ... well at least I think so.

I loved the fact that NARAM 52 host was taking donated rockets for this very same purpose. However, I still say that raw materials built into what ever is the greatest achievement for any hobbiest.

JonathanVery interesting (and inspiring), Jonathan! It sounds like what Estes did was similar to the R.I.F. ("Reading Is Fundamental") program that introduced low-income children to reading for pleasure. Estes could do this again and/or have "Make It, Take It" programs at schools (with photocopier-ready model rocketry educational materials made available to the teachers).

[privateer]

There is a place for RTF. Adults that want to try rockets may not necessarily have alot of time to build something, and the patience of any given kid varies widely.

If there was a way for a local club to advertise its presence at the big box stores, it would be the best of all worlds. A somewhat interested party could buy a RTF and a pack of engines, and attend a club launch. A nearly painless way to try it out.

We have and fly rockets, and until recently none were RTF. Some relatives gave my son an Estes RTF Hi Jinx and Rascal for his ninth birthday. All you had to do was connect the parachute to the nose cone. Both have one-piece fin units that look pretty tough. When the latest monthly launch snuck up on us, we grabbed them mostly out of convenience. B6-4 right out of the box -- good flyers; pretty straight in a breeze too. To cut down on drift, we then tried A8-3's -- works fine, no hitches. I cut the spill hole on the Rascal it kick it off on C6-5 -- great flight, fast and high. If you just want to go sport flying more than building, there's nothing wrong with these birds.

Whoops, I forgot about a Quest RTF set - pad and everything - clearanced from Hobby Lobby. It also has a one piece fin can and has been reliable and trouble free.

An RTF can be a great intro into the larger world of rocketry.

BTW, an RTF isn't for all occasions. If we did a Cub Scout rocket project, you would want an easy building kit for the educational value.

[hcmbanjo]

I will let you in on a secret and don't take this the wrong way: I love building nude or semi-nude. Jonathan

Huh?
Well, that explains a lot. Thanks for that visual.
Personally, I build rockets in a Viking outfit. :D

[ghrocketman]

The FIRST thing Estes needs to do to make money is to stop pissing off those of us that are Semroc fans with their mamby-pamby legal notices to Semroc.
Notices like these go a long way toward steering many of those in the dedictated rocket community's engine purchases FROM Estes to ANY OTHER motor manufacturer.

[Carl@Semroc]

The FIRST thing Estes needs to do to make money is ...
I think they heard this and many other comments from the community.

I think Rick, Jim, Mary, Mike, John, and all the rest of the crew really want to recapture the magic of Penrose (and Phoenix) that is their legacy.

[soopirV]

Many of you have made (belabored might be a good term!) the points pro and con for the direction Estes "SHOULD" go.
The point I'd like to make (or clarify, I got confused reading through the thread) is that many of us BAR are not a dead-end road; we are not the last-best hope. I've got two little kids (soon to be 3 and 5) that scream for joy when they see dad bringing in the worn-out cutting board and various rocket bits in from the garage. I'm probably on the young side of the demogs here (32), since I really "took-off" with the hobby in the late '80's, early '90's (thanks to my dad, who built exactly ONE rocket at a business meeting. It failed miserably at launch, but it was enough of a kick to encourage him to buy the old Big Bertha starter kit and build with me), but it's not something I've ever forgotten about. Sure, the hobby got shelved for several years as other things took priority, but my early experiences created an ember that could not be extinguished. My kids are too young for most of the building process, but I encourage them to help wherever they can. I have yet to buy an RTF or ARF kit, but once my guys are old enough to handle anything sharper than a pair of scissors without endangering anything cuttable (or bleed-able) nearby, you can bet I'm going to encourage them to have a go at it on their own.
I agree, I can't fathom the idea of a teen at WalMart, there to buy the latest XBox game, stopping to look at a rocket kit, but we as parents (and perhaps more imporantly, as grandparents), have much more influence than posting online or even "voting with our wallets". It is up to us to inspire the next generation of rocketeers- I don't care how that happens, as long as it does.
I do rocketry because, like almost all of you, it appeals to my curiosity, desire to create with my hands, and for the thrill of seeing something tear away from the immutable force of gravity, if only for a moment. The fact that my kids share in my excitement rewards me far beyond any promise of re-releases or commitments to certain motor classes made by a company. My happiest memory of rocketry was the first launch of my new Big Bertha (same yellow and black paint job with the same black and red decals as the #1948 (I think!) kit my dad built with me) when my parents came out for a visit. Three generations of rocketeers all bound by one simple bird; for the first time my two kids cooperated as the older one held down the safety and shouted the count-down, letting his little brother push the "go button". I posted the pics and video on Facebook, and my dad said it brought tears to his eyes for months after he'd gone home.
I'm even thinking of publishing my extemporaneous bedtime stories; my tales of Robby the Red Rocket (whom my oldest son is convinced is our Estes "HiFlyer" model, the first kit I built with him (and my official entrance into BAR)) are ever expanding and always in demand. This is probably the same reason why I am hooked on the Big Bertha...with any luck, when my crew grows up, they'll be telling THEIR children about the HiFlyer they and their dad built, and will spend the rest of their lives recreating that excitement and joy with their own families.
I only hope that companies like Estes are around to fuel those memories.

[Jeff Walther]

I think a tirade against Ready-to-Fly in the context of expanding Estes' business, ignores the fact that many folks today just don't have the time available to devote to kit building. I haven't looked at statistics, but I believe that there are a lot fewer families with one parent at home in the afternoon than there was when I was a kid.

This means, in practice, that the kids don't get home until after 5 or 6 at which point there's time for dinner, homework, bath, a little family time and bed.

When we got home at 3PM or 4PM there was a couple of hours every day that could be devoted to kit building.

When is that kid going to build a kit? Weekend? All the sports and other activities that kids must start in elementary school in order to pad the resume for college soak up the weekend. Okay, I exaggerate a little bit, but it's not too far wrong.

Ready to Fly may be aesthetically offensive, but it's the only option to get many folks started in the hobby.

If the real goal is to encourage folks to burn more motors, then the biggest need I can think of is for more accessible and larger places to fly.

It's difficult to fly anything 'B' and up in a school yard. And around here, an awful lot of high school yards are "Keep Off" zones any more. But that's another rant....

I don't know if it's the least bit practicable, but what I would like to see is for NAR and Tripoli and Estes and maybe Quest to get together with the R/C plane folks and start lobbying local governments to build more R/C & rocketry oriented parks -- large flattish areas where all the trees are cut down. The city where i reside has plenty of parks, but they're full of pesky trees.

Other than time pressure, I think the biggest obstacle to burning lots of motors is the lack of places to fly. It sure seems like there aren't as many accessible open spaces as when I was a kid.

Sure, I can fly with the club. But I don't burn a lot of motors flying once a month. And it's an hour drive each way out to the farm where we fly. Plus, if my son has a ball game on rocket day, then that's a month when we don't fly.

I think the best think Estes could do to sell more motors is figure some way, without spending too much money, to encourage more building of parks where folks can fly.

[ghrocketman]

I know one line of motors that Estes could sell a ton of to make money....

B14's !!!

But they won't even entertain the notion....

How bout the B8-0,3,5,7 instead ?

[scigs30]

I think a tirade against Ready-to-Fly in the context of expanding Estes' business, ignores the fact that many folks today just don't have the time available to devote to kit building. I haven't looked at statistics, but I believe that there are a lot fewer families with one parent at home in the afternoon than there was when I was a kid.

This means, in practice, that the kids don't get home until after 5 or 6 at which point there's time for dinner, homework, bath, a little family time and bed.

When we got home at 3PM or 4PM there was a couple of hours every day that could be devoted to kit building.

When is that kid going to build a kit? Weekend? All the sports and other activities that kids must start in elementary school in order to pad the resume for college soak up the weekend. Okay, I exaggerate a little bit, but it's not too far wrong.

Ready to Fly may be aesthetically offensive, but it's the only option to get many folks started in the hobby.

If the real goal is to encourage folks to burn more motors, then the biggest need I can think of is for more accessible and larger places to fly.

It's difficult to fly anything 'B' and up in a school yard. And around here, an awful lot of high school yards are "Keep Off" zones any more. But that's another rant....

I don't know if it's the least bit practicable, but what I would like to see is for NAR and Tripoli and Estes and maybe Quest to get together with the R/C plane folks and start lobbying local governments to build more R/C & rocketry oriented parks -- large flattish areas where all the trees are cut down. The city where i reside has plenty of parks, but they're full of pesky trees.

Other than time pressure, I think the biggest obstacle to burning lots of motors is the lack of places to fly. It sure seems like there aren't as many accessible open spaces as when I was a kid.

Sure, I can fly with the club. But I don't burn a lot of motors flying once a month. And it's an hour drive each way out to the farm where we fly. Plus, if my son has a ball game on rocket day, then that's a month when we don't fly.

I think the best think Estes could do to sell more motors is figure some way, without spending too much money, to encourage more building of parks where folks can fly.
I agree 100 percent.

[Bill]

I know one line of motors that Estes could sell a ton of to make money....

B14's !!!

But they won't even entertain the notion....



Give it up already.

NAR will start an EX program long before that happens...


Bill

[Bill]

I think a tirade against Ready-to-Fly in the context of expanding Estes' business, ignores the fact that many folks today just don't have the time available to devote to kit building. I haven't looked at statistics, but I believe that there are a lot fewer families with one parent at home in the afternoon than there was when I was a kid.



The other side of the coin is a family who finds they have "extra" time on their hands because a planned outing has been cancelled. So they go wander through the local WallyWorld for something to do that afternoon. Kits take too long, but an RTF starter set might just be the thing to get them to try rocketry.


Bill

[ghrocketman]

A NAR EX progrum ?
Sounds GOOD to me as long as it's and ANYTHING-GOES FREE-FOR-ALL CONCOCTION SPREE with ZERO restriction on propellant formulae !
No stinkin' blockhouses or bunkers neether !

[Feyd]

I know for Chistmas this year my wife and I will be buying quick-build starter sets for all the kids in the various extended families. One family has a very-special-needs kid who will be getting a RTF set.

I'm hoping this activity will encourage them (some are pretty young) to start pestering the parents to start building more "cooler" rockets with them.

The kits with minimal build time are great for young beginners that would not normally be exposed to rocketry (no program in school, not in Scouts, parents that didn't fly, etc). They all enjoy my rocket postings on Facebook so at least they are partly familiar with the hobby.

[blackshire]

-SNIP- I don't know if it's the least bit practicable, but what I would like to see is for NAR and Tripoli and Estes and maybe Quest to get together with the R/C plane folks and start lobbying local governments to build more R/C & rocketry oriented parks -- large flattish areas where all the trees are cut down. The city where i reside has plenty of parks, but they're full of pesky trees.

Other than time pressure, I think the biggest obstacle to burning lots of motors is the lack of places to fly. It sure seems like there aren't as many accessible open spaces as when I was a kid.

Sure, I can fly with the club. But I don't burn a lot of motors flying once a month. And it's an hour drive each way out to the farm where we fly. Plus, if my son has a ball game on rocket day, then that's a month when we don't fly.

I think the best think Estes could do to sell more motors is figure some way, without spending too much money, to encourage more building of parks where folks can fly.Jeff, something like this has already happened in at least one area that I know of. When I was growing up in Miami in the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s (before our family moved to the Blue Ridge Mountains of northern Georgia in 1976), we flew model rockets at the Old Tamiami Airport, which at that time was virtually a "ghost town" of an airfield, still open but just barely.

In the early 1970s, the airport closed and FIU (Florida International University) was built on the site. Whenever we went there to fly after the university construction started, my father would lament that the hobby might die out for lack of flying fields. When my mother and I moved back down to Miami after my father died in 1985, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that our rocket flying site had been preserved and even enhanced, with the full co-operation of the Metro Dade County Parks & Recreation Department. While this was probably done more for the benefit of the R/C model airplane flyers who also used the site, local model rocketeers also enjoyed these benefits.

A paved parking area was added at the edge of the field, bathroom facilities were built next to the parking area, and a small open-front model preparation building with tables was built adjacent to one of the old runways. Also, Parks & Recreation Department personnel kept the grass mowed, which made it much easier to see landed rockets.

In the early to mid-1990s I took my nephew Billy out to the site (now called Tamiami Park) to fly model rockets, and we often saw other model rocketeers flying there along with the R/C model airplane folks and kite flyers--it was a hobby version of the Bible-inspired painting "The Peaceable Kingdom." FIU students as well as local resident hobbyists enjoyed flying models there. People also came there to jog, to ride bicycles away from busy streets, and to just enjoy the large open space.

The Metro Dade County government (and its successor, the Miami-Dade government) are *not* known for their generosity in funding such facilities, so if they could enhance and maintain such a nice multi-use flying site, any city or town could also do so.

[blackshire]

I know for Chistmas this year my wife and I will be buying quick-build starter sets for all the kids in the various extended families. One family has a very-special-needs kid who will be getting a RTF set.

I'm hoping this activity will encourage them (some are pretty young) to start pestering the parents to start building more "cooler" rockets with them.

The kits with minimal build time are great for young beginners that would not normally be exposed to rocketry (no program in school, not in Scouts, parents that didn't fly, etc). They all enjoy my rocket postings on Facebook so at least they are partly familiar with the hobby.A thought--You can also use model rocketry to teach your children patience and the joys of delayed gratification, as my father did with my brothers, sisters, and me. It works like this:

You build (or let them build, if they're old enough) a very simple plastic nose cone & fin unit rocket such as an Estes Alpha III or a Quest Starhawk. You tell them, "We'll fly it as soon as I finish my rocket." Your rocket is a simple but high-performance balsa-and-paper kit such as a Semroc Swift (see: http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KV-24 ), which requires sanding, sealing, and painting (all of which, of course, require patience to do them well).

Your children protest, "Daaaaaad! Your rocket is taking foreveeeeeer to build!!!" You calmly point out to them that worthwhile things often take time. Their opinion about your statement is changed for the positive (but perhaps only slightly) when they see your rocket's glass-smooth, glossy paint finish a day or two (an eternity to them!) later. Now on to the flying field:

You prep their plastic nose cone & fin unit rocket (with their help, if they're old enough to assist you) for flight and load it with an A6-4 or A8-5 motor. Before loading the motor, you show your children how little propellant the "A" motor contains ("Look at all of that empty space in there!"). You tell them this will be a low-powered test flight. Having never seen a model rocket fly before, they will almost certainly be very excited and impressed when they see it fly. They will probably now want to see how Dad's rocket compares to theirs in flight. Now comes the manifestation of your lesson from a few days earlier:

You (perhaps with their help) prepare the Semroc Swift (or whichever balsa-and-paper rocket you built) for flight. Before installing its identical "A" motor, you again show them how little propellant it contains. When the button is pushed, your rocket streaks off the pad faster than theirs, and its lower weight and drag allow it to keep climbing higher...and higher...and higher before it slows down and the motor's ejection charge deploys its recovery system. Your children exclaim "WHOA!" (or whatever 21st-Century equivalent expression of amazement may have replaced it).

After recovering the rocket, you show them its now-expended "A" motor and point out the great difference in performance between the two rockets that used two identical low-power motors that was largely the result of your patient and methodical work in assembling, sanding & sealing, and painting your lighter-weight balsa-and-paper rocket. You repeat your earlier statement that worthwhile things often take time, and this time it should sink in. At this point, they will probably be enthusiastic about helping you with your next balsa-and-paper rocket or even (if they're old enough) building their own.

[chrism]

Estes used to do a fine job of tying-in their rockets to current movies or tv programs (remember the Star Wars kits of the late 70s?). Heck, they even made some up such as making the Kadet rocket a Star Wars Proton Torpedo and making up a rocket from the movie "The Black Hole". When Syfy redone Battlestar Galactica, this would have been a great opportuity to re-release the Colonial Viper and maybe even come up with the new Mk. 7 Viper.

Estes could have tied into such movies like Ironman. I would like to build a "Stark Industries" Jericho missle from the first movie.

If Estes would like to introduce rocketry to a younger generation instead of us BARs, then make rockets appealing to the younger crowd like tying in to a "Transformers" rocket for example. This would be a great way of introducing rockets of various skill levels to new rocketeers.

[Initiator001]

I know one line of motors that Estes could sell a ton of to make money....

B14's !!!

But they won't even entertain the notion....

How bout the B8-0,3,5,7 instead ?

If Estes could have made a ton of money selling B14s, those motors would have never gone out of production. ;)

Bob

[cas2047]

If Estes would like to introduce rocketry to a younger generation instead of us BARs, then make rockets appealing to the younger crowd like tying in to a "Transformers" rocket for example. This would be a great way of introducing rockets of various skill levels to new rocketeers.

It would be great if it could be done, but they are competing with the internet, computers, video games, etc.. I find that a lot of kids coming up today (not all, but many) aren't as interested in building things. It's more about instant gratification these days. Who knows though, things could change for the better!