New German Composite Engines coming soon

[Leo]

Normally I wouldn't be posting these kind off things here but this teaser post may concern American rocketeers as well. That is all I can say at the moment.

Weco is at present the only German manufacturer of black powder rocket engines. They range from A to D and are very inexpensive compared to engines coming from Estes. We pay 10 German engines for the price of 3 Estes engines. Unfortunately Weco is closing down production of their rocket engines at the end of this year.

Thankfully another German company has designed new German made composite engines. Today I had a chance to see them live and I can tell you I literally got Goosebumps when the lite up :D

Unfortunately I didn't have my cam equipment with me at the time. However I will post here when I get the material from others that were present.

Here the prototypes that I got to take home to photograph:

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/New_German_Rocket_Engines_1.jpg

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/New_German_Rocket_Engines_2.jpg

These engines have the exact same size as Estes

D7 18mm
E18 and F14 24mm
F24 29mm

I’m told by the manufacturer that certification is running smoothly and should be completed by the end of this year.

I will post here when I can give out more information on the subject.

[bob jablonski]

Nice
Mr. Bob
Starlight Dude

[Bazookadale]

Are all versions plugged - anybody online to import these?

[Leo]

No, they will also come with delays.

[Brent]

I think Quest motors were at one time made in Germany.

[blackshire]

Two words come to mind regarding what I hope this new motor maker will do: boutique re-labeling

[shockwaveriderz]

Great News Leo! at least for German and Eurozone modelers. If they can pass BAM and get CE'ed....Europe is their oyster....... Being locally manufactured I'm sure they will be much less than US imports..


Terry Dean

[Leo]

Indeed Terry.

And if they are also sold in the US and compete against the new Estes engines maybe prices come to a reasonable level.

[Bazookadale]

Normally I wouldn't be posting these kind off things here but this teaser post may concern American rocketeers as well. That is all I can say at the moment.

Weco is at present the only German manufacturer of black powder rocket engines. They range from A to D and are very inexpensive compared to engines coming from Estes. We pay 10 German engines for the price of 3 Estes engines. Unfortunately Weco is closing down production of their rocket engines at the end of this year.

Thankfully another German company has designed new German made composite engines. Today I had a chance to see them live and I can tell you I literally got Goosebumps when the lite up :D

Unfortunately I didn't have my cam equipment with me at the time. However I will post here when I get the material from others that were present.

Here the prototypes that I got to take home to photograph:

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/New_German_Rocket_Engines_1.jpg

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/New_German_Rocket_Engines_2.jpg

These engines have the exact same size as Estes

D7 18mm
E18 and F14 24mm
F24 29mm

I’m told by the manufacturer that certification is running smoothly and should be completed by the end of this year.

I will post here when I can give out more information on the subject.

Any idea of thrust curves? Core burning, moon burning, C slot?

[Leo]

I was present when they were static tested and saw the thrust curves.
Unfortunately I didn't memorize the results, sorry.

[Bazookadale]

Those pictures look like they are paper casings like Estes - they might be end burners or drilled out core burners

[tbzep]

I was present when they were static tested and saw the thrust curves.
Unfortunately I didn't memorize the results, sorry.
If you can draw the general shape of the thrust curve, we can probably tell what type they are.

[Leo]

Those pictures look like they are paper casings like Estes - they might be end burners or drilled out core burners

The casings on these engines are rock solid and are nothing like Estes paper tubes.

Here is a representative picture of the flame coming out the engines.
The picture is blurred. In real life the impulses are seen much more clearly. The exhaust flame looks fantastic http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/German_Engine_Composite_Flame.jpg

[carbons4]

That is bad to hear about one manufacturer going out but good to hear about a new one coming in. I would like to ask on the price difference between the German motors and Estes, how much is tarrif and duties and how much is actual price? In the late 70's we(FSI) started doing a limited business in Germany. The importer's name I believe was Wolfgang Carstien. Forgive me if the spelling is off. Very nice man. I remember hearing the price was going to be much higher in Germany over USA. Please keep everyone informed with the new motors and their performance.

[Leo]

I actually have 1 unused 1982 FSI engine purchased from Wolfgang Carstens.

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/FSI_E5-6_1982.jpg



(As reference an Estes C6-7 pack costs 10.49 Euro = $14.97)

[carbons4]

That is very cool Leo.

[Leo]

Here the thrust curves of the pictured (-1) engines:

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/Klima_Rocket_Engines.jpg

[Shreadvector]

Obviously an interesting propellant. End burning with the small core at the nozzle end that produces the peak thrust, just like Estes black powder motors. Could this propellant be similar to the Widowmaker propellant? Those were endburners.

The nozzles in the photos look interesting. Are they poured in or pressed in during motor loading? Is the tiny core and the nozzle formed during loading or are they drilled post loading?

I wonder if these have any automated loading or assembly steps or if they are hand made?

Of coourse, the propellant could be a pressed composite instead of a poured and cured composite.

I look forward to more details or comments from motor making experts.

[shockwaveriderz]

Obviously an interesting propellant. End burning with the small core at the nozzle end that produces the peak thrust, just like Estes black powder motors. Could this propellant be similar to the Widowmaker propellant? Those were endburners.

The nozzles in the photos look interesting. Are they poured in or pressed in during motor loading? Is the tiny core and the nozzle formed during loading or are they drilled post loading?

I wonder if these have any automated loading or assembly steps or if they are hand made?

Of coourse, the propellant could be a pressed composite instead of a poured and cured composite.

I look forward to more details or comments from motor making experts.

according to the Widowmakers brought back by Bernie Biales in the 1972 MIT Journal the Widowmakers were composed of potassium picrate, ammonium perchlorate, and nitrocellulose.

propellant chemistry has greatly improved since then so I doubt that these new German composites contain any NC or picrates.....BAM would never ok them. They are considered primary and high explosives. I would make an educated guess they are simply APCP.

I'm nowhere near a motor making expert (although I will play one for a few seconds here) but I would also guess that since they are endburners and they use paper cases with a composite propellant the propellant probably burns as fast as typical BP and that the chamber pressures are < 300-400 psi.

As far as the rest of your questions, Leo might be able to answer them or Robert Klima, the manufacturer could I'm sure. His phone number is on the web at his website.

When these were first announced at the Nuremberg 2011 Toy Fair I thought I read they were pressed composites. By pressed I also mean granulated as thats how the APCP in the Czech Rapiers were made and they were essentially long duration endburners. I could be wrong. In fact all my guesses above could be wrong as they are pure speculation.


Hey Leo...how about an interview with Robert Klima?

Terry Dean

[Leo]

...

Hey Leo...how about an interview with Robert Klima?

Terry Dean

Send me your questions via PM and I'll see what I can do.

[carbons4]

Never knew much about the widow makers other than hearing the name. I am going to guess that the nitrocelulose was used as a binder? If so PBAN is a lot more efficent. Been 25 years since I cooked slury. Forgoten a LOT of it.

[Leo]

I've made a video showing 2 motor tests of the Klima engines.

Click me... (http://www.leo.nutz.de/videos/forums/Klima_Motoren_Solaris_2011.mpg)

[shockwaveriderz]

wow those mach diamonds are clearly shown....
Terry Dean

[Rocketflyer]

I've made a video showing 2 motor tests of the Klima engines.

Click me... (http://www.leo.nutz.de/videos/forums/Klima_Motoren_Solaris_2011.mpg)

Thanks for posting the video, Leo. Those motors were very impressive. I hope they become available, somehow, here in the states.

[Leo]

Thanks for posting the video, Leo. Those motors were very impressive. I hope they become available, somehow, here in the states.

The motors have been designed so that the "regular" engines fall below hazmet requirements which gives hope that the US market would be a target.

[Old Rocketeer "II"]

The new Klima line of motors will distributed exclusively by Quest Aerospace in North America (USA and Canada).

Details on pricing and availablity are still aways off.

They will be stagable (and include booster motors) and will be available in retail stores. Of course, they will include Q2G2 igniters!

Follow the leaks from Germany, because there won't be alot of information published by Quest until we are finished with DOT EX Numbers and NAR/CAR Testing.

[stefanj]

That's great news, Bill!

A D12-0 to F-long burner sustainer would be a nice combination.

[Initiator001]

Cool! :D

I look forward to these motors being available for purchase. :)

[Leo]

Sir,

"So much for keeping this project "Top Secret"... "

You spilled the beans ;) There was only speculation that a US company would be in on for the ride and no names were mentioned.

As for German / European concerns the "secret" was out long ago that new motors were needed.
It is vital to our hobby in Germany that alternative motors be made available by the beginning of 2012 as our current German source will stop production, if not already. Estes engines are not a real alternativ as they are too expensive.

BAM Germany are certifying the new motors at present.

Those are not secrets.

I'm thrilled that Quest has a major role because this is good news for everyone all over and I can't wait to fly my rockets with these new engines http://www.oldrocketforum.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Jerry Irvine]

Details on pricing and availablity are still aways off.Fair enough. What are the general dimensions, thrust curve shapes, average thrust and delays, anyway? About.

Jerry

[Ltvscout]

The new Klima line of motors will distributed exclusively by Quest Aerospace in North America (USA and Canada).
New motor choices are always great news, Bill. Thank you!

[chrism]

The new Klima line of motors will distributed exclusively by Quest Aerospace in North America (USA and Canada).

Details on pricing and availablity are still aways off.

They will be stagable (and include booster motors) and will be available in retail stores. Of course, they will include Q2G2 igniters!

Follow the leaks from Germany, because there won't be alot of information published by Quest until we are finished with DOT EX Numbers and NAR/CAR Testing.

Will they be sold under the "Quest" or "Klima" label?

[Shreadvector]

As hinted at at the NARAM Manufacturer's Forum (videos are all now online - thanks!), look for them around Fall 2012.

Or were those the large Chinese BP (Thunderjet) motors? Hmmmmm....

Well, we'll buy anything and everything, so throw whatever you can at us whenever it is available! :D

[Old Rocketeer "II"]

These will be a Quest branded product

Will they be sold under the "Quest" or "Klima" label?

[Old Rocketeer "II"]

This development project replaced the China one about 20 months ago... might still use the Thunderjet name for these...

As hinted at at the NARAM Manufacturer's Forum (videos are all now online - thanks!), look for them around Fall 2012.

Or were those the large Chinese BP (Thunderjet) motors? Hmmmmm....

Well, we'll buy anything and everything, so throw whatever you can at us whenever it is available! :D

[shockwaveriderz]

This is great news Bill. Booster composites.....very interesting......




Terry dean

[Initiator001]

As hinted at at the NARAM Manufacturer's Forum (videos are all now online - thanks!), look for them around Fall 2012.

Or were those the large Chinese BP (Thunderjet) motors? Hmmmmm....

Well, we'll buy anything and everything, so throw whatever you can at us whenever it is available! :D

If the Estes Pro Series II product is suppose to be released late this year and the 'new' Quest motors (Thunderjets?) will be ready in the Fall of 2012...

I think a 'shootout' at NARAM-54 next year is called for. ;)

[Jerry Irvine]

This development project replaced the China one about 20 months ago... might still use the Thunderjet name for these...Thank you for posting first hand details to this site, Bill.

Jerry

[Leo]

"Thunderjet" would be a fitting name for these engines http://www.oldrocketforum.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Shreadvector]

If the Estes Pro Series II product is suppose to be released late this year and the 'new' Quest motors (Thunderjets?) will be ready in the Fall of 2012...

I think a 'shootout' at NARAM-54 next year is called for. ;)

A rising tide raises all ships.

I'm hoping for an astronomical high tide.

[Oliver]

As hinted at at the NARAM Manufacturer's Forum (videos are all now online - thanks!), look for them around Fall 2012.

You mean Fall 2012 for the US market?

Oliver

[Shreadvector]

You mean Fall 2012 for the US market?

Oliver

I do not mean anything. I watched the video and I heard what I heard. For the exact wording spoken on the video, you must view the video yourself. i do not wish to attempt to construct a transcript of someone else's comments and risk an error.

[ghrocketman]

Terry- AMEN and well said.
Add perpetually condescending as well.

[gpoehlein]

C'mon guys - let's all keep the snark to a minimum and focus on the topic at hand - new motors coming - woohoo!!! :D This is the best news since Hobbyco took over Estes and started bringing out neat new kits - I can't wait!!! :p

Greg

[Brain]

Interesting discussion, partly because of the issues I've had with Quest motors (issues I didn't even know I had until after I had stopped using them!). When I first BAR'ed a couple of years ago the local hobby shop carries Quest motors cheaper. Hey, I figured I knew how to not spend money when kicking off a new hobby! Anyhoo, our first few outings were rough (using the Quest motors), and then I eventually ordered Estes motors to use.

I will spend the money on Estes motors anytime.

Although a certain amount of inexperience could have contributed to our less-than-stellar first few outings, Cuzzin' Mike and I came to the conclusion that the spectacular outing we had last time was due to the Estes motors. They burn clean, they burn true, and they don't have these little discs of whatever it is that falls out of them afterwards - like the things didn't burn completely.

Ya get what ya pay fer.

So, this thread pops up about new German motors and the Quest connection, and I hope that this line of motors will be better than those others :eek: ... Price won't be an issue, as long as they can perform like those Estes motors! I'm going to be hard-to-please now...

[blackshire]

Interesting discussion, partly because of the issues I've had with Quest motors (issues I didn't even know I had until after I had stopped using them!). When I first BAR'ed a couple of years ago the local hobby shop carries Quest motors cheaper. Hey, I figured I knew how to not spend money when kicking off a new hobby! Anyhoo, our first few outings were rough (using the Quest motors), and then I eventually ordered Estes motors to use.

I will spend the money on Estes motors anytime.

Although a certain amount of inexperience could have contributed to our less-than-stellar first few outings, Cuzzin' Mike and I came to the conclusion that the spectacular outing we had last time was due to the Estes motors. They burn clean, they burn true, and they don't have these little discs of whatever it is that falls out of them afterwards - like the things didn't burn completely.

Ya get what ya pay fer.

So, this thread pops up about new German motors and the Quest connection, and I hope that this line of motors will be better than those others :eek: ... Price won't be an issue, as long as they can perform like those Estes motors! I'm going to be hard-to-please now...Which Quest motors did you use? There is a difference between their German-made and Chinese-made C6 motors (the latter are more like C4 motors in terms of average thrust), but their other motors--whether from Germany or China--perform on the mark. Also, their A6-4 gives more "whoosh for your 'ka-ching!'" than the A8-3 in most rockets. The liftoff is a bit slower (which is more enjoyable because one can actually *see* the rocket moving instead of glimpsing a blur at first motion), and the extra second of delay time makes a noticeable difference in the peak altitude. In addition, lightweight rockets that eject a bit before apogee on an A8-3 are pretty much spot-on with ejecting right at apogee on an A6-4.

[gpoehlein]

Which Quest motors did you use? There is a difference between their German-made and Chinese-made C6 motors (the latter are more like C4 motors in terms of average thrust), but their other motors--whether from Germany or China--perform on the mark. Also, their A6-4 gives more "whoosh for your 'ka-ching!'" than the A8-3 in most rockets. The liftoff is a bit slower (which is more enjoyable because one can actually *see* the rocket moving instead of glimpsing a blur at first motion), and the extra second of delay time makes a noticeable difference in the peak altitude. In addition, lightweight rockets that eject a bit before apogee on an A8-3 are pretty much spot-on with ejecting right at apogee on an A6-4.

And three of those rock in a Ranger clone! :D

[blackshire]

And three of those rock in a Ranger clone! :DI'll bet they do! The smokier Chinese A6-4s must make for particularly spectacular ascents.

[Oliver]

I do not mean anything. I watched the video and I heard what I heard. For the exact wording spoken on the video, you must view the video yourself. i do not wish to attempt to construct a transcript of someone else's comments and risk an error.

Thanks Fred - do you have a link to the video?

When Robert Klima first announced the new motors in February, the timeline was summer 2011 (for the European market) - see here:

http://www.europerocketry.com/index.php?id=rocketnewsdetails&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=205&cHash=ac2ed8acd5b4511045e37fbfd5f6da9b

I guess this was too optimistic - now, it seems they won´t be available until next year?

Oliver

[Shreadvector]

Thanks Fred - do you have a link to the video?

When Robert Klima first announced the new motors in February, the timeline was summer 2011 (for the European market) - see here:

http://www.europerocketry.com/index.php?id=rocketnewsdetails&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=205&cHash=ac2ed8acd5b4511045e37fbfd5f6da9b

I guess this was too optimistic - now, it seems they won´t be available until next year?

Oliver

NARAMlive website provides video of the NARAM manufacturer's forum. This year he has the videos on YouTube. Here is the basic link and from there you'll have to look around for the 2 parts of the Quest presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/user/naramlive53http://www.youtube.com/user/naramlive53 (http://www.youtube.com/user/naramlive53http://www.youtube.com/user/naramlive53)

[Leo]

I'm going to bring up this old thread because it's finally happing. The new engines have all been certified and the first batch (C6-x series) have gone into production. They should be available end of July.

Another very good news for us Germans is that we are now allowed to fly model rockets with max propellant weight of 150 grams (it was 20 grams) without needing a permit :)
Consequently staging and cluster is now possible as well.

Here the list of all the cool engines: www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de (http://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/Raketenmodellbau/Motoren-Treibsaetze.htm?shop=raketenklima&SessionId=&a=catalog&t=23&c=712&p=712)

[Ltvscout]

I'm going to bring up this old thread because it's finally happing. The new engines have all been certified and the first batch (C6-x series) have gone into production. They should be available end of July.

Another very good news for us Germans is that we are now allowed to fly model rockets with max propellant weight of 150 grams (it was 20 grams) without needing a permit :)
Consequently staging and cluster is now possible as well.

Here the list of all the cool engines: www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de (http://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/Raketenmodellbau/Motoren-Treibsaetze.htm?shop=raketenklima&SessionId=&a=catalog&t=23&c=712&p=712)
Cool stuff, Leo! I wonder if they'll ever find their way to the U.S.?

Here's the only German made rocket I could find on their site. All the rest were Quest or LOC.

http://tinyurl.com/n33kqsp

Do you have one of these? Just wondering how the all plastic design holds up.

Scott

[Leo]

Cool stuff, Leo! I wonder if they'll ever find their way to the U.S.?

Here's the only German made rocket I could find on their site. All the rest were Quest or LOC.

http://tinyurl.com/n33kqsp

Do you have one of these? Just wondering how the all plastic design holds up.

Scott


We are very excited over here :)

I don't have that rocket but I'll get one when it becomes available again.

[blackshire]

Cool stuff, Leo! I wonder if they'll ever find their way to the U.S.?
-SNIP-British FAI model rocketeer Stuart Lodge found that a diplomatic pouch worked wonders for getting Czech-made motors into the United Kingdom... :-)

[Initiator001]

Thanks for the update, Leo.

I had completely forgotten about these motors. :o

Bill Stine has already posted in this thread that Quest would be the exclusive distributor of these motors in the United States.

Bill is registered for NARAM-55. I think I am going to ask him a question or two during the manufacturer's forum... ;)

[Initiator001]

Questions for Leo.

1) I take it the pricing shown is in Euros(?).

2) How many motors come in a package at the listed prices?

Thank you.

[Leo]

Questions for Leo.

1) I take it the pricing shown is in Euros(?).

2) How many motors come in a package at the listed prices?

Thank you.

1) Yes

2) 6 engines per package


For comparison:

6 German C6-5 cost 10.90 Euros = $14.55
3 Estes C6-5 cost 9.90 Euros = $13.21

So we now get double for the same price :)

[sandman]

1) Yes

2) 6 engines per package


For comparison:

6 German C6-5 cost 10.90 Euros = $14.55
3 Estes C6-5 cost 9.90 Euros = $13.21

So we now get double for the same price :)

That's a very reasonable price.

I'd like to try some of those!

[Initiator001]

1) Yes

2) 6 engines per package


For comparison:

6 German C6-5 cost 10.90 Euros = $14.55
3 Estes C6-5 cost 9.90 Euros = $13.21

So we now get double for the same price :)

Thank you for the information, Leo.

I look forward to a report from you on using these new motors. ;)

[blackshire]

Another question, Leo, if I could indulge you: Do they have any plans for producing 13 mm composite "B" (or perhaps even "C") motors? For competition and payload models, a 13 mm "B" motor (which might even be able to be the same length as Estes' 13 mm motors) would be useful. Within that length, long-delay "A" motors (such as the A3-6T) might also be possible with composite propellant.

[Leo]

Another question, Leo, if I could indulge you: Do they have any plans for producing 13 mm composite "B" (or perhaps even "C") motors? For competition and payload models, a 13 mm "B" motor (which might even be able to be the same length as Estes' 13 mm motors) would be useful. Within that length, long-delay "A" motors (such as the A3-6T) might also be possible with composite propellant.

I'll ask when I have the chance but I'll go on the limb by saying that 13mm motors are not planned to date.

[blackshire]

I'll ask when I have the chance but I'll go on the limb by saying that 13mm motors are not planned to date.Thank you, Leo! Apogee Components used to offer at least one 13 mm composite "B" motor (a B7, if memory serves), and I'd love to be able to get such motors again.

[Leo]

Certification is VERY expensive and time consuming.

I personly don't think there is a big enough market for these types of engines.

[jetlag]

Hi, Leo,
Will you be bringing any?

A-

[ghrocketman]

I like Blackshire's "Diplomatic Pouch" quip. Sounds like a perfectly GREAT way to thumb your nose and ship devoid of virtually ALL stinkin' regulation.

[Leo]

Hi, Leo,
Will you be bringing any?

A-


That was my intention for our July meet in Orangeburg. But the engines won't be avail. by then.

[Shreadvector]

I like Blackshire's "Diplomatic Pouch" quip. Sounds like a perfectly GREAT way to thumb your nose and ship devoid of virtually ALL stinkin' regulation.

You can also consider using the Sal Governale Pouch.

[blackshire]

Certification is VERY expensive and time consuming.

I personly don't think there is a big enough market for these types of engines.I'm not disputing that, but Ed LaCroix (Apogee Components' founder and first owner) managed to do it--and Apogee Components under his ownership was aimed specifically at the competition model rocketry market, which was (and still is) definitely a niche market.

[blackshire]

I like Blackshire's "Diplomatic Pouch" quip. Sounds like a perfectly GREAT way to thumb your nose and ship devoid of virtually ALL stinkin' regulation.Thank you. Stuart Lodge wrote in his recent book "The interspace... Book of Space Travels," available from Traplet Publications Ltd. (see: http://www.europerocketry.com/index.php?id=rocketnewsdetails&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=246&cHash=78554694f19fcfd5037665dd722f4237 -- and interspace... is Stuart's free international model rocketry competition e-mail newsletter, to which I subscribe and occasionally contribute articles) that Eastern European model rocketeers and diplomats--many of whom are also model rocketeers--gleefully seized upon the use of diplomatic pouches to get Czech, Russian, and other non-UK certified specialty contest motors into the UK! :-) Since diplomats from Third World countries routinely break parking ordinances and get away from it because they have diplomatic immunity, I would have no ill will toward some enterprising model rocketeer who was also a diplomat (or had a relative or friend who was one), who used a diplomatic pouch to import otherwise-unobtainable motors.

[Leo]

Well, some of the "C" line engines became available last week just in time for one of our bigger rocket events held in Manching Germany.

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/Klima_Rocket_Motors.jpg

I flew my Estes Bandit and Raven with C6-5's.

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/Manching_2013/Estes_Bandit_2.jpg

http://www.leo.nutz.de/images/rockets/forums/Manching_2013/Estes_Raven_2.jpg

To make it short:

These have got to be the sweetest engines I have ever held in my hands.
They completely outclass BP engines, have a sweet sound and hardly leave any residue at the aft end or through ejection charge.
I'm going to get rid of all my BP engines ASAP and will only fly the Klima engines from now on.

[Bill]

Great for you for getting those. We in the United States are up in the air (and not in a good way) because Quest supposedly had an exclusive on them and with the deal, we depend on whether RCS/AeroTech wants to go through with them.


Bill

[Jerry Irvine]

Nice camera. Do you have images or video of the motors operating?

[Leo]

Sorry, no videos yet. A picture can be found on page 1.

[Jerry Irvine]

Great for you for getting those. We in the United States are up in the air (and not in a good way) because Quest supposedly had an exclusive on them and with the deal, we depend on whether RCS/AeroTech wants to go through with them.
BillBill, legally when Quest and RCS (Aerotech) combined, the new combination retains all the agreements and approvals of the parts. At some point DOT paperwork for Quest will have to be shifted to RCS, but it appears by retaining RCS as the "mothership" they avoided that issue for the vast majority of governmental approvals. So I strongly suspect that Kilma-Quest agreement is still in place.

That raises the issue of conflict when Estes sells small and large BP motors, E by AT composite motors, while RCS sells AT and now Quest/RCS by Kilma.

To my eye all these folks are competing for a fixed pie of customers, at least that is the typical style of both Bill Stine and Gary Rosenfield. What I do not see is anybody increasing the size of the pie. That is desperately needed (suggestions available offline) and has considerable precedent in the 70's when most of the population had at least seen a model rocket fly and a much larger share actually flew one.

When I initially grew HPR in the 1978-1992 time frame, from zero, and after NAR was opposed to it, and before considerable TRA drama toward me and two other motor vendors (USR, ACS, Vul) in favor of you know who, I had HPR participation all the way up to 20,000 users, and growing rapidly. That's a trend worth replicating. Now it is back down to about 5000 (1998-2014). Insignificant.

Outreach and growth. A rising tide lifts all ships.

The wild card seems to be Hobbico (Estes corporate owner), with Rick Piester in the upper management.

Hobbico, RCS, and Estes all use the dealer-distributor model with very deep discounts, and common wholesale to consumer internet and mail order retail outlets, which can harm its brick and mortar dealers.

Apogee, U.S. Rockets, PML, LOC and several others have a direct to consumer model with dealers being serviced directly by the vendor (sometimes manufacturer, sometimes reseller). They capture more of the margin and do not bypass their own dealer network, but have narrower distribution.

The Estes model requires ever wider distribution, ever simpler product for zero experience users, and more and more RTF and ARTF to accomplish it. John Boren is certainly engineering that future nicely, and the Estes Motor guys have new products on the higher end of exempt model rocketry (see my sig), as well as a few things up their sleeve with alternate propellants (higher power in shippable classes, made by Mable III in the USA).

NAR should (my 1984 proposal) align all model rocket limits to 125g per motor maximum (240H) which is the FAA exempt limit, push FAA to quadruple it (500g promass Big Dumb Rockets - close to a pound), get USPS to align with FAA for mailing, and of course get DOT to admit propellant is NOT an explosive per its own AT tests, the ATF lawsuit, and of course the ACS BOE tests from the 80's. Propellant is NOT an explosive. Propellant even burns at a rate below the Flammable Solid 4.1 threshold!!

Of course eliminate state approvals as duplicative and unnecessary given the NAR approval process. NAR publishes the product lists and data which is why CA has their process to begin with. Switch the rule from the CA OSFM symbol to the NAR symbol. Done.

Jerry

cites:

http://www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFexempt.htm

http://www.v-serv.com/usr/safetycodes.htm

http://www.v-serv.com/usr/regchange.htm

It's good to see so many motor vendors using the 1984 developed Irvine Leading Power (ILP) motor labeling method (AT 20D20WL-10) (USR 240H90-8STD).

http://v-serv.com/FAA/BDR/

[shockwaveriderz]

Leo, How much were these Kilma C6-5 selling for? Igniters included?

TIA

Terry Dean

[blackshire]

Until and unless the Klima motors are imported into the USA, a honey importer could make some money bringing them into the country, hidden in their product... Weapons smugglers in the Middle East frequently ship their wares hidden in large containers of honey, because Customs inspectors don't like to go through the sticky mess that a thorough search would involve! :-)

[Leo]

Leo, How much were these Kilma C6-5 selling for? Igniters included?

TIA

Terry Dean

6 engines per package at 10.90 Euros.
Wicks are included.

I use inexpensive SN0 e-matches.

[Jerry Irvine]

I see from the photo they have CE marks, so they also have UN shipping approvals. What they lack is specific DOT approval. So they can be shipped in and stored but reshipment is an issue unless DOT has started to recognize EU/UN shipping approvals by reference all of a sudden while I was not looking, which would benefit me greatly.

Bill was having difficulty with that, and Gary seems to have a fairly seamless effort doing so, so that could be the primary motivation for the combination. The DOT being overtly difficult is not new but Estes, Vulcan and Aerotech seem to have managed it fairly consistently over time. I do not see them sharing their methods. Even though this involves a public Federal agency and the public good.

So it could easily be months until a US DOT approval is granted.

Most of these seem to also fall under the USPS mailability limit.

Jerry

[shockwaveriderz]

6 engines per package at 10.90 Euros.
Wicks are included.

I use inexpensive SN0 e-matches.

Wicks are included. That's kinda funny as they allow wicks in place of igniters in Germany and in a lot of Europe. That's how the original model rockets were ignited before electrical ignition was mandate to differentiate model rocketry from fireworks here in America.

That $14.56 USD 14.65/6= 2.43.....now add USDOT,Shipping,Marketing,taxes...$3.00-$3.50 per C6-5......How's that compare to the current Estes C6-5 price? Amazon sells them for $13.14 for 3 so that's 13.14 /3 = $4.38.. Estes sells them for $11.49 so 11.49/ 3= $3.83....
Interesting.

Terry Dean

[Jerry Irvine]

Wicks are included. That's kinda funny as they allow wicks in place of igniters in Germany and in a lot of Europe. That's how the original model rockets were ignited before electrical ignition was mandate to differentiate model rocketry from fireworks here in America.

That $14.56 USD 14.65/6= 2.43.....now add USDOT,Shipping,Marketing,taxes...$3.00-$3.50 per C6-5......How's that compare to the current Estes C6-5 price? Amazon sells them for $13.14 for 3 so that's 13.14 /3 = $4.38.. Estes sells them for $11.49 so 11.49/ 3= $3.83....
Interesting.

Terry DeanRetail for retail is the only fair comparison. Wick or fuse if electrically ignited is USA compliant. Nichrome is available on eBay for like $3 per yard and you only need under 2" per motor.

Centuri had Sure-Shots which were nichrome initiated Jetex fuse. FSI had Thermalite which is similar fuse with wires on the outside layer to provide an electrical shorting mechanism.

Historian Jerry

BTW old rocketeers, do in fact, die.

[shockwaveriderz]

I found this:

http://www.europerocketry.com/index.php?id=rocketnewsdetails&L=5&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=259&cHash=7734d7a295b390d460715df27f5fc84b

http://www.raketenmodellbau-klima.de/

Terry Dean

[shockwaveriderz]

Leo:

If You get the opportunity to do so, take a sharp knife and cut one of these c6-5 in half and take some pics please. Since these are composite propellant motors, I would assume that the delay charge is also composite..or maybe not. I notice that Kilma make -P motors but no -0 motors, so you can't stage these models directly like BP. I wonder what the story is there? Anybody? Evidently you can't make -0 motors using the Kilma composite propellant....

Terry Dean

[Leo]

Leo:

If You get the opportunity to do so, take a sharp knife and cut one of these c6-5 in half and take some pics please. Since these are composite propellant motors, I would assume that the delay charge is also composite..or maybe not. I notice that Kilma make -P motors but no -0 motors, so you can't stage these models directly like BP. I wonder what the story is there? Anybody? Evidently you can't make -0 motors using the Kilma composite propellant....

Terry Dean

Terry,

please accept that I won't cut any motors in half.

Klima also have -0 engines which are used for staging. As soon as I get a pack I will try them out on my Estes Mongoose.

[shockwaveriderz]

Terry,

please accept that I won't cut any motors in half.

Klima also have -0 engines which are used for staging. As soon as I get a pack I will try them out on my Estes Mongoose.


Yes I just now noticed that. Nevermind? I used to cut estes model rockets apart as a kid......and maybe a few as an adult......

[Ltvscout]

Terry,

please accept that I won't cut any motors in half.
Awww, c'mon, Leo. What could possibly go wrong? :chuckle:

[tbzep]

Yes I just now noticed that. Nevermind? I used to cut estes model rockets apart as a kid......and maybe a few as an adult......
Didn't you once chastise me for "manufacturing" my unobtanium booster motors by removing the ejection and delay charges, or was that just micromeister, who turned around and did the same exact thing with MMX motors? :p

[luke strawwalker]

Didn't you once chastise me for "manufacturing" my unobtanium booster motors by removing the ejection and delay charges, or was that just micromeister, who turned around and did the same exact thing with MMX motors? :p

That was probably Micromeister... I still remember the steam and smoke that went up when someone pointed that out in a thread a couple years ago or so on TRF, IIRC...

Later! OL JR :)

[tbzep]

That was probably Micromeister... I still remember the steam and smoke that went up when someone pointed that out in a thread a couple years ago or so on TRF, IIRC...

Later! OL JR :)
I know MM tried to play god-of-all-the-universe on me, and it was me that let him have it when he bragged about doing it himself. His excuse was that Bill told him to. Sorry, MM, if the paperwork says not to modify motors, it's still against the code. What if Bill told him to step in front of a bus? :D

[Ltvscout]

Heh, MM hasn't even logged in here in over 4 years. Guess we're not good enough for him.

[tbzep]

Heh, MM hasn't even logged in here in over 4 years. Guess we're not good enough for him.
He didn't get to be the absolute dictator and lord of all things rocketry here so he took his huge ego and tiny little pictures and and went home. Why some TRF'rs worship him is beyond me. :rolleyes:

I typed a bunch more stuff, but decided to be nice and deleted it before hitting the submit button. ;)

[luke strawwalker]

I know MM tried to play god-of-all-the-universe on me, and it was me that let him have it when he bragged about doing it himself. His excuse was that Bill told him to. Sorry, MM, if the paperwork says not to modify motors, it's still against the code. What if Bill told him to step in front of a bus? :D

Yep... if you're gonna beat someone over the head with the rules, better not be breaking them yourself... Or expect to be called on it bigtime...

Later! OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

Heh, MM hasn't even logged in here in over 4 years. Guess we're not good enough for him.

Now if Fred and Peter would follow suit... LOL:)

later! OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

He didn't get to be the absolute dictator and lord of all things rocketry here so he took his huge ego and tiny little pictures and and went home. Why some TRF'rs worship him is beyond me. :rolleyes:

I typed a bunch more stuff, but decided to be nice and deleted it before hitting the submit button. ;)

LOL:) "Tiny little pictures"... too funny...

MM is a great source of info... seems the man has pics of anything you might want more information about... BUT, that "huge ego" part just makes it all for naught... and annoying to boot.

Later! OL JR :)

[hcmbanjo]

I know MM tried to play god-of-all-the-universe on me . . .

What? I thought I was the only one he went off on!

Haha! Tiny little pictures - Haha!

[Earl]

LOL:) "Tiny little pictures"... too funny...

MM is a great source of info... seems the man has pics of anything you might want more information about... BUT, that "huge ego" part just makes it all for naught... and annoying to boot.

Later! OL JR :)

Who was MM (Micromiester)? I don't recall him, though I've been a member here since 2006.


Earl

[luke strawwalker]

Who was MM (Micromiester)? I don't recall him, though I've been a member here since 2006.


Earl

Guy from the NAR HQ section or something like that... DC area maybe?? IIRC he's a sign maker by trade. Used to post all kinds of informative stuff, but he's SO condescending, and if you suggest something different than the way he does it, well, you're just plain WRONG and stupid for not realizing it and agreeing with him. If it's one thing I've learned on these forums over the years, its that "there's more than one way to skin a cat" and everybody has their own preferred materials and methods... some work great for some people, and some don't work at all... there's very few methods that work great for EVERYBODY and that someone else hasn't found an alternative to that works better for them and sometimes for others as well... I try to couch my observations and recommendations in that sort of way-- "here's how I do it, works great for me, but your mileage may vary..." kind of thing. Not MM-- his way or the highway... do it his way or you're just plain not doing it RIGHT!

I swear he's got photos going back probably at least 30 years, and posts pics composed usually of about four frames combined into one, usually labeled, showing how to do something or different components or materials that can be used... very meticulous, but the pics are usually so small as to be difficult if not well nigh impossible to read or see clearly.

Like I said, he's a VERY knowledgeable guy, BUT, his condescension literally will make you fighting mad... He's burned me a time or two, and when I gave tit for tat, one of the so-called self-described "super moderators" over on TRF, rangerstl, slapped me down and made some crappy comments in the thread and then locked it. I nearly got kicked off the board over there after that, because I was SO PO'd I asked the "super mod" why he was playing favorites-- "was he SUCH good buddies with the guy that he felt he had to give him a reach around??" The moderator hit the roof, gave me another demerit, made sh!tty comments on the board directed at me and then locked everything so only HE could have the final word... sorry b@stard... Oh well, I have his number... LOL:)

At any rate, Micromeister just "walks between the raindrops" over there... Basically he can be as insulting or as condescending as he wants, and he gets a free pass-- anybody who takes a jab at him verbally in return gets slapped down... typical TRF BS... Board is on the third owner to run it since I've been on there, and nothing fundamental ever changes... they just dust a bit and "rearrange the deck chairs" so to speak, but the same prigs that have been prigs all along keep being prigs... although in fairness it's nowhere NEAR as bad as it used to be... I was just about ready to quit TRF before Troj took over... it was THAT BAD, IMHO. Now it's just mildly annoying-- "big brother" shoots down any thread that requires one to put on "big boy pants" right about the time it gets interesting. Not saying they should tolerate peeing matches, because they shouldn't, BUT, anytime ANYTHING REMOTELY goes into religious or political territory, even if it's PERCEIVED to be heading that way, the thread gets slammed shut mid-stride. They'll tolerate infinite amounts of infantile BS like "word association games", but God forbid you speak your mind on something possibly controversial, ESPECIALLY after someone has baited the thread (and gotten away with it).

Oh well, it is what it is... ask GHRocketman, he'll tell you... he got banned over there... (gee, I couldn't understand WHY! (where is the "ironic" smiley again?? LOL:)) Anyway, it was pretty much the same situation that got Jonathan Dunbar banned from here.... just in reverse...

Oh well... I know that a house-cleaning was needed around here, although the floor is getting dusty again... LOL:) At least we can have honest, "grown up" discussions around here, usually without it turning into too much of a peeing match. TRF is the "everybody must play nice and not discuss anything that might offend anybody anytime for any reason" forum...

Their sandbox, their rules... that's fine... just kinda silly at times IMHO... Guess I can live with it so long as there's not prig mods slapping me down for doing the EXACT SAME THING that their "buddies" are doing and getting a free pass on... that sort of thing just PO's me...

Later! OL JR :)

[ghrocketman]

Any forum that is "Kindergarden Rated" I will NEVER need.
I'm a big supporter of the 1st Amendment, and honestly believe it should be absolute, and guaranteed UNCENSORED in ALL cases with IMPUNITY from any repercussions. Not joking.

That whole nearly-useless site needs a gigantic water-tower-sized ENEMA that flushes out all the moderators before I would ever even use it for reference, due to the fact it is full of TURDS in need or FLUSHING down the crapper. 99% of the moderators over there have S-F-B Disease (Fecal matter-Fer-Brains).
The favoritism over there is representative of a pre WWII family-owned business. Absolutely unbelievable. MM is every bit as condescending, arrogant, and pompous as Fred.

[Ez2cDave]

So . . . WHEN & WHERE will the German motors be available in the USA ?

[Ez2cDave]

I'm a big supporter of the 1st Amendment, and honestly believe it should be absolute, and guaranteed UNCENSORED in ALL cases with IMPUNITY from any repercussions. Not joking.

That whole nearly-useless site needs a gigantic water-tower-sized ENEMA that flushes out all the moderators before I would ever even use it for reference, due to the fact it is full of TURDS in need or FLUSHING down the crapper. 99% of the moderators over there have S-F-B Disease (Fecal matter-Fer-Brains).


Sounds like "ContestRoc" aka "CROC" on Yahoo . . .

[Jerry Irvine]

So . . . WHEN & WHERE will the German motors be available in the USA ?The original big BP motors are dead. The new intermediate performance composites are in actual production and shipping. I believe Quest (aka RCS) has the US exclusive for a while.

Just Tech Jerry

cite:

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=154416&postcount=64

[ghrocketman]

I think seeing these things is slightly less likely than brand "Q" releasing their Thunderjet line of 29mm BP SU motors and also slightly less likely than Estes re-introducing the 29mm Centuri Enerjet line of E24/F52/F67/G76 composite SU motors last widely available in 1976.

[chrism]

Whatever happened to Leo??

[Jerry Irvine]

Are they available in Europe? I can import them if they are.

[bob jablonski]

importing isn't as bad as the rules and regulations to sell and ship them.
Mr. Bob
Countyline Hobbies

[ghrocketman]

Shipping regulations is one area where we need MASSIVE de-regulation in our country.
What a freakin' joke.
Short of HIGH-explosives, we should be able to ship ANYTHING via ground anywhere, anytime.
Yes, ALL BP and AP/composite motors with next to ZERO documentation as well.

NO HARM=NO FOUL.

[blackshire]

Shipping regulations is one area where we need MASSIVE de-regulation in our country.
What a freakin' joke.
Short of HIGH-explosives, we should be able to ship ANYTHING via ground anywhere, anytime.
Yes, ALL BP and AP/composite motors with next to ZERO documentation as well.

NO HARM=NO FOUL.I agree. G. Harry Stine wrote (in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry") about how, in 1957, Orville Carlisle mailed him several of his home-made, hand-pressed model rocket motors, plus one or more kits and a launcher (plus fuses for ignition), which arrived by railroad mail with nothing but the appropriate warning stickers. Imagine that happening *today*, with Carlisle's motors having no DOT or UN numbers--it simply couldn't be done today! Beginning next month, I think it's possible that an appropriate rollback of the current draconian regulations governing the personal shipping of motors and igniters can be achieved.

[ghrocketman]

Oh it COULD be DONE by just not revealing what is in the box and shipping them illegally.
I have NEVER done this nor would I advocate it, but I know several people that DO ship that way.
For the most part, I have NO problem with those that choose to be SCOFFLAWS toward A$ININE regulations.

[blackshire]

Oh it COULD be DONE by just not revealing what is in the box and shipping them illegally.
I have NEVER done this nor would I advocate it, but I know several people that DO ship that way.
For the most part, I have NO problem with those that choose to be SCOFFLAWS toward A$ININE regulations.A German model rocketeer (it might have been Oliver Missbach, but I'm not sure) wrote about how he once brought some motors into Germany inside paper tubes. He told the customs officials that the tubes were core tubes for architectural models of buildings with classic Greek or Roman columns. When they asked him why he didn't buy such column core tubes locally, he replied that the models were non-metric...luckily, they believed him. :-)

[Jerry Irvine]

I agree. G. Harry Stine wrote (in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry") about how, in 1957, Orville Carlisle mailed him several of his home-made, hand-pressed model rocket motors, plus one or more kits and a launcher (plus fuses for ignition), which arrived by railroad mail with nothing but the appropriate warning stickers. Imagine that happening *today*, with Carlisle's motors having no DOT or UN numbers--it simply couldn't be done today! Beginning next month, I think it's possible that an appropriate rollback of the current draconian regulations governing the personal shipping of motors and igniters can be achieved.
Read my .sig

[blackshire]

Read my .sigHow about adding Carl to it? (He wrote about how straightforward it was in the late 1960s to make the arrangements for Semroc's motors to be acceptable for mailing and shipping.)

[Jerry Irvine]

How about adding Carl to it? (He wrote about how straightforward it was in the late 1960s to make the arrangements for Semroc's motors to be acceptable for mailing and shipping.)
I am more inclined to use his inspiration to do it again today. New sheriff in town federally.

[ghrocketman]

BATFE was in it's infantcy in the 1960's, thus it WAS easy.
Now they are a HUGE MENACE that like many other gubmint agencies seem to get away with granting themselves OBNOXIOUS over-reaching NEVER INTENDED powers to be a NUISANCE.

[Jerry Irvine]

BATFE has been neutered by the lawsuit. DOT is the new and continued menace. NAR/TRA/AT/ESTES are not on board despite hard evidence.

[ghrocketman]

BATFE has not been neutered regarding BP, only APCP.
DOT needs to be neutered as well. The OWNER of the shipping vehicle should be able to ship anything anywhere that they control with ZERO gubmint interference.

NO HARM=NO FOUL.

If SCOTUS had any stones and properly used logic, they WOULD RULE the entire "F" portion of BATFE unconstitutional and illegal.

[luke strawwalker]

BATFE was in it's infantcy in the 1960's, thus it WAS easy.
Now they are a HUGE MENACE that like many other gubmint agencies seem to get away with granting themselves OBNOXIOUS over-reaching NEVER INTENDED powers to be a NUISANCE.

*LIKE*... OL J R :)

[Ez2cDave]

BATFE has been neutered by the lawsuit. DOT is the new and continued menace. NAR/TRA/AT/ESTES are not on board despite hard evidence.

. IF, and WHEN, the next BATFE "issue" arises, I believe that it will be an "attack" by them on "IGNITERS" . . .

You can have all the APCP you want, BUT you can't USE it without a LICENSE to "IGNITE" it !

Dave F.

[Jerry Irvine]

Trump claims he wants to de-regulate. How about a petition to return 55.141-a-7 on BATFE (exemption of all Class C/1.4), and exempt all small slow burning solids from HMR (DOT/USPS/commercial carrier) per the rules that already exist and are being interpreted by DOT as not valid? How about quadrupling the FAA exempt limits?

BTW Estes is not using the NA0323 exemption to include igniters (real ones) in model rocket motor packaging. They should exercise the rights they have.

For example they could sell a package of one A8-5 with six igniters as the spare igniter product. Heck why not A8-7 and include piston launching plans! When you purchase any E or larger motor it is recommended you also purchase this product.

Jerry

[Ez2cDave]

Trump claims he wants to de-regulate. How about a petition to return 55.141-a-7 on BATFE (exemption of all Class C/1.4), and exempt all small slow burning solids from HMR (DOT/USPS/commercial carrier) per the rules that already exist and are being interpreted by DOT as not valid? How about quadrupling the FAA exempt limits?

Jerry

Jerry,

BUT, does a "Daveyfire"-style ELectric Match qualify as a "slow-burning solid" ?

Dave F.

[Jerry Irvine]

Jerry,

BUT, does a "Daveyfire"-style ELectric Match qualify as a "slow-burning solid" ?

Dave F.
Yep. But try this known ATF exempt igniter instead:

https://electricmatch.com

3' wire 80 pcs $68.

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry sent you.

You can dip them 1/4" for up to mid-length 38mm, and 1/2-3/4" for larger lengths and diameters. They will ignite CTI pellets and BP directly.

Use AT Firstfire Jr for smaller throats or a dip kit.

Tech Jerry

This should be in the FAQ. :D

[Ez2cDave]

Yep. But try this known ATF exempt igniter instead:

https://electricmatch.com

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry sent you.

Tech Jerry

Jerry,

What makes it "exempt". other than them calling it an "initiator", rather than an "igniter" or "electric match" . . . Just because it has BLUE & WHITE wires ?

As soon as the first psychopath sets off a pipe-bomb with one, that "exemption" will be a memory !

QUOTE:

"The only ATF non-regulated initiator on the market. Don't be fooled, the safety explosives act of 2003 regulated all igniters. After many samples and conversations with the ATF, we are proud to announce that we have a non regulated product. These were made specifically for rocketry, law enforcement, and consumer fireworks. Per our patent and ATF agreement, they are only available with a Blue and white lead wire. * Orders less than a case will ship US Mail, without insurance, and can take 2 weeks to deliver. They ship Parcel post. there is not tracking, even though you will get a #. It will only show you when it departs our local facility, and when it arrives to your local facility. It does not update along the way like priority mail. As a special permit is needed to ship these via US Mail, returns are not accepted. Please be sure of your order, and do not place an order if it is time sensitive."

END QUOTE:

Dave F.

[tbzep]

Yep. But try this known ATF exempt igniter instead:

https://electricmatch.com

3' wire 80 pcs $68.

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry sent you.

You can dip them 1/4" for up to mid-length 38mm, and 1/2-3/4" for larger lengths and diameters. They will ignite CTI pellets and BP directly.

Use AT Firstfire Jr for smaller throats or a dip kit.

Tech Jerry

This should be in the FAQ. :D
I wonder if that is the same basic electric match as FSI M-100 used to sell during most of its existence? They came out with the M-20 in the late 80's for small BP motors.

[Jerry Irvine]

Jerry,

What makes it "exempt". other than them calling it an "initiator", rather than an "igniter" or "electric match" . . . Just because it has BLUE & WHITE wires ?Fair question. They interactively negotiated with ATF over several years on specs ATF itself was willing to call exempt. It is BATFE exempt. It is not DOT exempt.

If they mail them to you and you do not like them you cannot mail them back. Shipments sent by Fedex are labeled hazmat. If you have a Fedex hazmat account you can ship them back. They can be shipped by truck, rail or ship, and I suspect by air freight as well. Hazmat.

Tech Jerry

[Jerry Irvine]

I wonder if that is the same basic electric match as FSI M-100 used to sell during most of its existence? They came out with the M-20 in the late 80's for small BP motors.No. Original e-matches have a tiny amount of high explosive in them to reduce the action time.

[Ez2cDave]

Fair question. They interactively negotiated with ATF over several years on specs ATF itself was willing to call exempt. It is BATFE exempt. It is not DOT exempt.

If they mail them to you and you do not like them you cannot mail them back. Shipments sent by Fedex are labeled hazmat.

Tech Jerry

Jerry,

Will they let you pick up an order, in person ( They are in NJ ) . . . No DOT problems, then ?

Can they legally be re-sold and distributed, other than by Mail ?

Dave

[Jerry Irvine]

Jerry,

Will they let you pick up an order, in person ( They are in NJ ) . . . No DOT problems, then ?

Can they legally be re-sold and distributed, other than by Mail ?

DaveI have no idea what their will call policies are but it is unnecessary since they will mail them to you. There are no access restrictions since they are BATFE exempt. It's amazing what one can learn if one listens, eh?

Two ears and one mouth. :D

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry Irvine sent you.

Just Jerry

BTW I agree ATF is trying to make igniters a problem just like they tried with propellants. The problem is some folks are voluntarily surrendering on igniters unnecessarily. Listen to the NARCON youtube video asking Gary questions. One guy said he had a 50% failure rate on Estes starters.

Ridiculous since Estes enjoys NA-0323 status and can sell real igniters (with an included motor) completely legally. John Boren make a friggin product like that!

Estes might be awesome, but it is not perfect or all knowing. NAR might be awesome, but it is not perfect or all knowing. I brought them LMR, HPR and sparks against their will. I would like them to learn their lesson and listen for a change, to get DOT out of our hair and BTW increase the market 2000%. GFL.

[Ez2cDave]

I have no idea what their will call policies are but it is unnecessary since they will mail them to you. There are no access restrictions since they are BATFE exempt. It's amazing what one can learn if one listens, eh?

Two ears and one mouth. :D

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry Irvine sent you.

Just Jerry

OK . . . What about Mailing costs ? Is HAZMAT required ?

I just found THIS on their website . . .

DISCLAIMER AND TERMS
MJG TECHNOLOGIES INC., DISCLAIMER AND TERMS OF SALE

* Please print and complete this form and forward to MJG Technologies Inc., along with an original signed copy of your BATF License and a 50% Deposit, if you would like to purchase our products.
*As of May 24, 2003 the ATF requires all american buyers to have a Federal Explosives License.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: This form must be completed and sent to MJG Technologies Inc., along with an original signed copy of your BATF License and a 50% Deposit, before the purchase of any of our products. We will keep this form on file.


MJG Technologies Inc.
832 Camden Avenue • Blenheim, NJ 08012


Print Name: _________________________________________________________
Phone Number: _______________________________________________________
Company Name: _______________________________________________________
Fax #: ______________________________________
Address: ____________________________________________________________
City: ________________________________________
State: _____________________, ZIP Code: ____________
Signed: _____________________________________________________________
Date: ______________________.

[tbzep]

The only ATF non-regulated initiator on the market. Don't be fooled, the safety explosives act of 2003 regulated all igniters. After many samples and conversations with the ATF, we are proud to announce that we have a non regulated product. These were made specifically for rocketry, law enforcement, and consumer fireworks. Per our patent and ATF agreement, they are only available with a Blue and white lead wire. * Orders less than a case will ship US Mail, without insurance, and can take 2 weeks to deliver. They ship Parcel post. there is not tracking, even though you will get a #. It will only show you when it departs our local facility, and when it arrives to your local facility. It does not update along the way like priority mail. As a special permit is needed to ship these via US Mail, returns are not accepted. Please be sure of your order, and do not place an order if it is time sensitive.

In other words, they can ship it to you by USPS with no haz-mat charge. Just don't get them mixed up with some of their other products which are regulated.



.

[Jerry Irvine]

OK . . . What about Mailing costs ? Is HAZMAT required ?

I just found THIS on their website . . .

DISCLAIMER AND TERMS
MJG TECHNOLOGIES INC., DISCLAIMER AND TERMS OF SALE

* Please print and complete this form and forward to MJG Technologies Inc., along with an original signed copy of your BATF License and a 50% Deposit, if you would like to purchase our products.
*As of May 24, 2003 the ATF requires all american buyers to have a Federal Explosives License.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: This form must be completed and sent to MJG Technologies Inc., along with an original signed copy of your BATF License and a 50% Deposit, before the purchase of any of our products. We will keep this form on file.


MJG Technologies Inc.
832 Camden Avenue • Blenheim, NJ 08012


Print Name: _________________________________________________________
Phone Number: _______________________________________________________
Company Name: _______________________________________________________
Fax #: ______________________________________
Address: ____________________________________________________________
City: ________________________________________
State: _____________________, ZIP Code: ____________
Signed: _____________________________________________________________
Date: ______________________.The ONE product I discussed is not applicable to that.

https://electricmatch.com/products/see/6/mjg-firewire-initiator

Tech Jerry

[Ez2cDave]

The ONE product I discussed is not applicable to that.

https://electricmatch.com/products/see/6/mjg-firewire-initiator

Tech Jerry


OK . . . Fingers crossed . . . Thanks !

Dave

[Jerry Irvine]

BTW want another exempt "starter"?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HVHPDE2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tech Jerry

[Jerry Irvine]

Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry Irvine sent you. That's important. :D

[Ez2cDave]

BTW want another exempt "starter"?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HVHPDE2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tech Jerry

Hmm . . . No "Blue & White" wires . . . MJG claims to have an "agreement" with BATFE . . . I see nothing from BILUSOCN about being exempt . . . Does BILUSOCN have a website ?

Dave

[Jerry Irvine]

Hmm . . . No "Blue & White" wires . . . MJG claims to have an "agreement" with BATFE . . . I see nothing from BILUSOCN about being exempt . . . Does BILUSOCN have a website ?

DaveThe one on Amazon is a larger version of the Estes clear starters. By being larger it works better.

Can we ever have a tech discussion? If rocketeers (users, manufacturers, associations, dealers) do not want igniters and propellants to be exempt, ATF and DOT and FAA sure as HE double toothpicks do not!!

MJG is "pyrotechnic".

[tbzep]

No. Original e-matches have a tiny amount of high explosive in them to reduce the action time.
Glad you added to the original answer.
I've never used an e-match. I assumed they have always been pretty much the same as far as the design, but had no idea what compounds were used to enhance them.

[blackshire]

Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First_Fire_Minis/cat4193206_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_Igniters/cat4193206_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.

[Les]

Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First_Fire_Minis/cat4193206_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_Igniters/cat4193206_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.

My understanding is Quest changed the Q2G2 formula as well and they are not as good as the original version. Unfortunately....

[hcmbanjo]

Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First_Fire_Minis/cat4193206_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_Igniters/cat4193206_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.

The Quest website has been redesigned.
If you try to add the Q2G2 igniters to the shopping cart a pop-up reads:
"Unable to add to cart. Product unavailable."

[ghrocketman]

Figures.
I lost all confidence in brand Q when they announced with much fanfare the SU BP 29mm Thunderjet Motors. They apparently had many produced then had people test-fly them at various launches.
They then proceeded to FAIL to bring them to the market.
Thankfully brand E no longer announces products that have any chance of NOT making it to market.
ALWAYS UNDER announce/promise and OVER deliver.
Doing the opposite of that EVER has nothing but long and short term negative business impact ALWAYS.

[blackshire]

The Quest website has been redesigned.
If you try to add the Q2G2 igniters to the shopping cart a pop-up reads:
"Unable to add to cart. Product unavailable."*SIGH* Well, that (along with Les' mention of the Q2G2 pyrogen formula change) is useful if not encouraging information; thank you both for posting it. Hopefully, the Copperhead-type "First Fire Mini Initiators" are available (I personally never had any ignition problems with the Copperhead-type Tiger Tail and Tiger Tail II igniters--they just required somewhat different installation and micro-clip hookup techniques). Also:

I agree with GH about Quest's proclivity to market vaporware which never manifested as tangible, available products. But now that they are a part of AeroTech, perhaps this will change; I've always liked their products, and I'd like to see their product lines grow. In addition:

One relatively easy thing they could do would be to re-issue the 15 mm diameter MPC/AVI Miniroc kits (they use the T15 tubing in some of their current kits, as faux strap-on boosters), which could use Estes 13 mm mini motors. (Before AeroTech bought them, Quest started that "new tradition" with their higher-powered kits, for which they recommended other companies' large motors that they themselves didn't make.) That slight diameter difference between T15 and BT-5 enabled the 15 mm (0.591") rockets to comfortably accommodate a 10" parachute (or a streamer, of course [especially for two-stage models]). The Minirocs also used a BT-5 size "sleeve tube" motor mount tube, which not only strengthened the fin assembly area (preventing body tube buckling when inserting/removing the friction-fit motors), but also enabled the motors to be retained using just an external wrap of masking tape (by leaving 3/16" - 1/4" of the sleeve tube protruding from the body tube, so that the tape could be wrapped around the protruding sleeve tube and the rear end of the motor).

[Jerry Irvine]

In the NARCON video of the manufacturer's forum Gary stated directly with price increases coming from China it is likely the BP motors next ordered will be the last and the Q2G2 igniters can only be ordered at the same time as motors. So hoard Q2G2 when the next batch arrives.

If Estes were to do a NA0323 (UN0432) motor pack with real old style solar igniters and include abundant spares in every package, it might be a North America only product but we are the biggest market anyway. Maybe a customised bulk pack would be the easiest for them.

Besides no non-USA country tries to regulate igniters abnormally. It was the elimination of 55.141 (a) (7) that started this ball rolling but it still exempts specific UN numbers.

NARCON folks reported a 50% ignition failure rate for "starters".

27 CFR 555.141 (a) EXEMPTIONS:

(7) The importation, distribution, and storage of fireworks classified as UN0336, UN0337, UN0431, or UN0432 explosives by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 49 CFR 172.101 and generally known as “consumer fireworks” or “articles pyrotechnic.”

(8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.Note that igniters are, in fact, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes. Note also pyrotechnic igniters are "articles, pyrotechnic".

A traditional electric match has a tiny amount of high explosive covered by a propellant (inhibitor). All model rocket and high power rocket igniters have no high explosive at all. Only propellant as the pyrogen.

Some have a bridge wire and some use a semi-conductor in the dip to eliminate the need for micro-welding or winding.

Time to grow balls.

Jerry

Cites:

UN 0336 1.4G http://www.health-safety-signs.uk.com/cgi/products.pl?signs=hazchem_detail&id=203&un=UN0336

UN 0337 1.4S http://www.hazmattool.com/info.php?language=en&a=Fireworks&b=UN0337&c=1.4S

UN 0431 1.4G http://www.health-safety-signs.uk.com/cgi/products.pl?signs=hazchem_detail&id=295&un=UN0431

UN 0432 1.4S http://www.hazmattool.com/info.php?language=en&a=Articles%2C+pyrotechnic+for+technical+purposes&b=UN0432&c=1.4S

"ATFE’s own burn rate threshold for deflagration
is 1000 millimeters (or one meter) per second."
Tripoli Rocketry Ass’n, 437 F.3d at 81-82

"ORDERED that the defendant's [BATFE] decision to
classify APCP as an explosive under
18 U.S.C. § 841(d) is VACATED."

FINAL FEDERAL COURT ORDER 16 March 2009

[ghrocketman]

Originally I thought Aerotech acquiring brand Q was going to be good, as Aerotech if anything brings engines to market sometimes too quickly, instead of ever announcing 'vaporware'.
Now I'm not so sure as it seems brand Q has all but disappeared.

[blackshire]

In the NARCON video of the manufacturer's forum Gary stated directly with price increases coming from China it is likely the BP motors next ordered will be the last and the Q2G2 igniters can only be ordered at the same time as motors. So hoard Q2G2 when the next batch arrives.Does this mean that AeroTech will no longer sell black powder motors (from any source) with/for Quest kits, or will they go back to using German-made black powder motors? (The German Klima 18 mm paper-cased composite motors would also be an intriguing possibility--re-issued Quest kits such as the Falcon [also sold under the name of Eagle], the Nike-K, and the Super Eagle could use the Klima motors to great advantage.) Also:

I see that the rocket kit listings on the Quest website list not only the recommended Quest motors, but also the Estes motors that can be substituted for the Quest motors (here is the Quick Q rocket kit listing on the Quest website, which lists both the Quest and Estes motors that this rocket can use: http://www.questaerospace.com/QuickQ_Model_Rocket_Quick_Kit/p4193205_16428946.aspx ). This *might* mean that AeroTech is planning to stop offering black powder motors for/with the Quest kits (after their latest batch of Chinese-made motors is all sold to vendors and to individual online customers), or it might be just a precaution, in case they *are* planning to get black powder motors from another source, but might go through a period when they have no motors in stock before their new source starts delivering them. But even if they do plan to stop offering black powder motors, this need not harm Quest at all, because many model rocket companies (Semroc, Aerospace Speciality Products, etc.) have never made their own motors or sold other companies' motors for use with their rocket kits. Also, AeroTech's 18 mm composite "D" motors work well in the larger Quest rockets.

[ghrocketman]

I for one would like Quest/Aerotech to source their motors to Klima (Germany) once again.
They had higher thrust and were more consistent when I used them.
The chinese produced motors do nothing for me.
What I would REALLY like to see is someone taking the lead and offering BP single use motors that Estes REFUSES to produce with nothing but EXCUSES why they cannot fulfill motors requested by customers.
We need and want PORT/CORE-burning SU BP 18mm (B8/B14/C5/C19), 24mm D/E, 29mm E/F motors and there IS a market for them.
I have NO doubt Carl would have fulfilled this need once he got the motor making going at Semroc, but we all know that has almost no chance of happening now.

[blackshire]

I for one would like Quest/Aerotech to source their motors to Klima (Germany) once again.
They had higher thrust and were more consistent when I used them.
The chinese produced motors do nothing for me.
What I would REALLY like to see is someone taking the lead and offering BP single use motors that Estes REFUSES to produce with nothing but EXCUSES why they cannot fulfill motors requested by customers.
We need and want PORT/CORE-burning SU BP 18mm (B8/B14/C5/C19), 24mm D/E, 29mm E/F motors and there IS a market for them.
I have NO doubt Carl would have fulfilled this need once he got the motor making going at Semroc, but we all know that has almost no chance of happening now.So Klima made the black powder motors that Quest once offered? The German motors were definitely superior to the Chinese ones. (Today I read two EMRR reviews of the Quest Super Eagle [see: http://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/qst_super_eagle.shtml ], which suffered wobbly or gravity turn near-crash flights on Quest C6-3s, but boosted just fine on an Estes C6-3.) Maybe Klima could be persuaded--if folks like us contacted them--to produce your (and many people's) "dream motors" in your list, along with the 'standard fare' black powder motors.

[eljefe]

or it might be just a precaution, in case they *are* planning to get black powder motors from another source, but might go through a period when they have no motors in stock before their new source starts delivering them.

I think that risk has already been realized. The stock of Quest motors at any vendor has been pretty pitiful the past couple years. Most places are completely out of them now. The Q2G2 igniters are even worse. They're like unicorns.

[blackshire]

I think that risk has already been realized. The stock of Quest motors at any vendor has been pretty pitiful the past couple years. Most places are completely out of them now. The Q2G2 igniters are even worse. They're like unicorns.That should change soon, with AeroTech's latest batch purchase of the Chinese-made motors, although their C6 motors have an average thrust more like that of a C4 motor, which makes for squirrely flights in larger models (although they might actually be better than the German-made [or even Estes'] C6 motors for use in smaller rockets--they might provide a longer burn along with the lower thrust, which would cut down on drag during powered flight due to the lower acceleration).

[jdbectec]

the german-made motors that Quest offered earlier were made by Waco not affiliated with Klima. The Chinese Motors are made by a manufacturer in China. Whose Name Escapes me right now but you could find them on the Internet. apogee Imports thier kits. Klima is a separate manufacturer. perhaps Aerotek is looking to produce the same Motors under license

[Royatl]

Klima is a separate manufacturer. perhaps Aerotek is looking to produce the same Motors under license

That is the only way I can see that they could produce quantity at the lower price that would be required.

[blackshire]

the german-made motors that Quest offered earlier were made by Waco not affiliated with Klima. The Chinese Motors are made by a manufacturer in China. Whose Name Escapes me right now but you could find them on the Internet. apogee Imports thier kits. Klima is a separate manufacturer. perhaps Aerotek is looking to produce the same Motors under licenseThank you for clarifying which German firm (was it spelled "Weco" instead of "Waco?"--the former was mentioned earlier in this thread) made Quest's motors. My memory is hazy, too, but I think (which may be wrong) that the Chinese-made Quest motors came from the Chinese model rocket company that is known as "Sky" in this country (the firm whose kits, launch pads, and launch controllers are carried by Apogee Rockets [Sky's motor selection also includes 13 mm mini motors of various lengths; they'd be intriguing imports...]).

[Royatl]

Thank you for clarifying which German firm (was it spelled "Weco" instead of "Waco?"--the former was mentioned earlier in this thread) made Quest's motors. My memory is hazy, too, but I think (which may be wrong) that the Chinese-made Quest motors came from the Chinese model rocket company that is known as "Sky" in this country (the firm whose kits, launch pads, and launch controllers are carried by Apogee Rockets [Sky's motor selection also includes 13 mm mini motors of various lengths; they'd be intriguing imports...]).

It is 'WECO'. 'Sky' as I understand is a marketing name for kits and motors, and the motors are made by another entity which has a long, multi word name.
[edit] here it is: http://www.wcu100.com/model/English.htm

Motors at bottom of this page http://www.wcu100.com/model/product.htm

Though from what I understand, the big Quest motors of 2008 were made by a military organization, different from these motors.

[blackshire]

It is 'WECO'. 'Sky' as I understand is a marketing name for kits and motors, and the motors are made by another entity which has a long, multi word name.
[edit] here it is: http://www.wcu100.com/model/English.htmThank you; I thought it was Weco, and thank you for posting the link to Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technology Co., Ltd. I knew that the actual name of the Chinese model rocket company isn't "Sky" (that's just a marketing name, as you wrote), but I couldn't remember what it was. If their 13 mm and 18 mm black powder motors are reliable, they'd be worth importing and getting them NAR Certified for sale in the U.S. and Canada (I think CAR has a reciprocal certification agreement with the NAR).

[Jerry Irvine]

Both the Chinese and German offerings seem to mainly be impacted by price not availability. That is caused by currency fluctuations and internal pricing in China in particular where wages are rising by double digit annual rates. China is no longer lower cost than USA by a significant margin after freight and taxation and currency.

If the current political trends here continue it may flip to USA being similar or lower cost after consideration of taxes.

If regulations are relaxed we will regain our lead.

Exemptions not regulations.

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=210971&postcount=140

Tech Jerry

[jdbectec]

Sorry the german-made motors were made by Weco not waco. talk to text got one by me

[blackshire]

Both the Chinese and German offerings seem to mainly be impacted by price not availability. That is caused by currency fluctuations and internal pricing in China in particular where wages are rising by double digit annual rates. China is no longer lower cost than USA by a significant margin after freight and taxation and currency.

If the current political trends here continue it may flip to USA being similar or lower cost after consideration of taxes.

If regulations are relaxed we will regain our lead.

Exemptions not regulations.

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showpost.php?p=210971&postcount=140

Tech JerryI hope so, but it has been happening slowly in areas of some other industries, where cheaper Chinese products are of unacceptably poor quality, to the point that it's cheaper to manufacture them here than to correct flaws in Chinese-made products (or to discard large batches of Chinese-made products that can't be brought up to snuff). But:

There are still other places where companies can have their products produced cheaply--Vietnam (where many of our underwear garments are now produced, to give just one example) is beginning to take the place once occupied by Red China. They're even in the R/C glider and model airplane business (see: www.seagullmodels.com ), selling "all-planked" scale and non-scale R/C planes around the world, including in the U.S.A. With their fireworks heritage, the Vietnamese could produce reliable and competitively-priced black powder model rocket motors.

[Jerry Irvine]

I used China as the rule but southeast Asia generally have rising living standards and are on the wrong side of currency valuations.