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View Full Version : P-51 Crash at Reno Air Race


Ltvscout
09-18-2011, 04:17 PM
Check out these photos on Yahoo. Unbelievable. You can see the trim tab missing from the horizontal stabilizer in the shot of the plane upside down.

http://tinyurl.com/6xcr284

jharding58
09-18-2011, 04:40 PM
Pretty horrific imagery all round. It is also noted by many that the piot is not visible in the cockpit immediately prior to the impact. When I am asked about this my response is always "Would you want to watch?"

dlazarus6660
09-18-2011, 05:39 PM
Another warbird crash yesterday! A T-28D Trainer/Fighter crashed in VA airshow on Saturday.

Doug Sams
09-18-2011, 06:51 PM
Pretty horrific imagery all round. It is also noted by many that the pilot is not visible in the cockpit immediately prior to the impact. Reading one of the threads on TRF (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?p=236524#post236524) , in post 38, FastCargo states that, at the moment the trim tab is lost, the plane could pitch violently, as would the stick. Maybe that's a factor in the pilot's position at impact.

Doug

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ghrocketman
09-19-2011, 09:03 AM
Unbelievably nasty crash...I can see dozens of mega-buxx lawsuits out of this one.

MarkB.
09-19-2011, 01:10 PM
A couple of years ago Bob "Hurricane" Hanna, famous motorcycle and air race pilot experienced a similar failure that is somewhat instructive:

Bob was flying a race-prepared P-51 Mustang very similar to the one in the crash. At race speed, the aircraft uses a great deal of nose down trim on the elevator. At the start of the race, while Bob was fairly high and in a wings-level descent onto the Reno course at race speed and power-settings, one of the two elevator trim tabs separated. The departure resulted in a sudden 8 G pitch up that left Bob momentarily un-conscious and popped rivets off of the top of the wing. Bob's head was in his lap, as air-racers do not wear HANS devices like Indy and F1 drivers. Bob quickly regained consciousness and was able, with the assistance of a chase plane, to return the plane to the ground without further incident. He later recalled being very groggy as he landed. I do not believe he ever air-raced again.

The pilot at Reno this weekend may have been rendered unconscious by a high G event when his trim tab departed the aircraft and never regained it before the plane hit the ground. The deployed tailwheel would be evidence that such a high G incident occurred.

I feel for the pilot and the spectator's families. It's funny because if I ever won the Lotto that was the specific plane I wanted buy. It had a great racing history and could have been something special.


As for lawsuits, there are only lawsuits if there is money to collect and while I'm sure there were underwriters for the event itself, I'd be willing to bet that the purchase of a ticket included specific waivers and the policy limits will be fairly low. Yes, there will be lawsuits, but I doubt they'll be mega bucks.

ghrocketman
09-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Good attorneys will tell you those waivers on tickets are useless for preventing lawsuits and the amounts awarded. In instances such as these, somebody's GONNA PAY, rightfully so.

The Bob "Hurricane" Hanna incident happened at the '98 races in Reno. Eerily reminiscent to this, but nobody was hurt in that case.

Peter Olivola
09-19-2011, 02:52 PM
A good attorney will start by explaining the difference between negligence, as covered by the waiver, and gross negligence, which isn't. He/she will also explain the burden of proof involved in a gross negligence claim. In all but a few jurisdictions (Nevada isn't one of them,) the protective value of a spectator waiver is considered settled law.

In all jurisdictions, proving gross negligence is difficult. For instance, did the pilot take off knowing there was a problem with the trim tab? What are the FAA requirements for preflight inspection and were they followed? Given the nature of the aircraft involved, experience of the pilot and crew, etc., it will be more than difficult to prove gross negligence. Maybe someone made a mistake. That's still not gross negligence in and of itself. Especially if the individual involved is judgement proof.

If anyone sues, the case will hinge on FAA preflight requirements and the actions of the pilot and crew in adhering to those requirements. It's going to be rather difficult to depose the pilot. Now, if you're thinking the organizers knew or should have known of the possible danger involved, I think you'll find they have a well documented history of spectator safety, so that will be just as difficult to push into the gross negligence category.

A good attorney will look at this case and refuse to take it on a contingency basis. A not so good attorney might, but that's not a good attorney.

Good attorneys will tell you those waivers on tickets are useless for preventing lawsuits and the amounts awarded. In instances such as these, somebody's GONNA PAY, rightfully so.

The Bob "Hurricane" Hanna incident happened at the '98 races in Reno. Eerily reminiscent to this, but nobody was hurt in that case.

bernomatic
09-19-2011, 03:00 PM
Of course this thread had to be posted while my oldest daughter was in flight to Spain to take up a teaching position. :(
Which is why I didn't read it till I found out she was down and safe in her hotel. :)

bernomatic
09-19-2011, 03:47 PM
I wonder if the races will continue? They stopped in 1949 after a pilot flying a P-51 crashed into a house here killing two. Must be something about that plane, myself, I always thought the F4U was a better plane, not from personal experience mind you, but second hand.

Speaking of the first hand experience, my pappie also lived in Ocala, Florida were Jimmy Leeward lived. I wonder if there is an enclave of old veteran flyers down there sitting around and shooting the bull. To be a fly on that wall. :eek:

Doug Sams
09-19-2011, 03:59 PM
I wonder if the races will continue? They stopped in 1949 after a pilot flying a P-51 crashed into a house here killing two. Must be something about that plane, myself, I always thought the F4U was a better plane, not from personal experience mind you, but second hand.All these warbirds have some distinct advantages and disadvantages for use in racing. While they have very powerful engines and ginormous propellers along with sleek, sturdy airframes, they were built for combat. Which means they have lots of extra lift - drag - to carry bombs, rockets, drop tanks, etc into the air, not to mention all the reinforcing to carry those loads. And don't forget the extra weight of fuel tank liners and pilot armor.

As as result, over the years, the owners and fliers of those planes have, for lack of a better term, hacked on them to take weight and drag out. As as result, they are a long, long way from stock. When I read the description of all the changes, I wonder, in the back of my mind, why they didn't just build a new one from scratch ;)

I think all those modifications are the big factors in this wreck. And also a factor in why the P-51 is a better air racer than the F4U. The latter had that huge Pratt & Whitney radial in it, and was a very large fighter in its day. It was sorta the Navy's version of the P-47 in terms of being the "big kid" in the classroom. It probably takes much more work to make it svelte ala the modifed P-51's flown in these air races.

But I do know, besides the Mustang, over the years, the Corsair and Thunderbolt along with several others (P-38's, F8F Bearcats, P-39's, P-47's and F6F Hellcats, to name some) have been flown in these competitions.


Doug

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jharding58
09-19-2011, 04:13 PM
In the photographs of the aircraft inverted the port elevator boost tab is missing and the trim tab appears to be partially detached, I would guess from when the boost tab departed the airplane. There is very little control surface deflection after the roll from the top of the inverted manouevre until the aircraft impacts the ground. That may lend some credence to the question as to whether or not the pilot maintained consciousness or not. I can only pray that he did not.

What I have heard from several people at Reno was the aircraft pitched up to the vertical, rolled to the right, which would be contrary to a torque roll, also there was a slight rocking of the aircraft immediately after the roll to inverted flight. It then continued over the top and executed the type of descent you would expect from an inverted aircraft absent down elavator or a very slight back stick, but there was certainly not full deflection in the elevator. There are a great many cameras at Stead for the races, not to mention the telemetry from the cockpit; including video. While there is much conjecture as to the relative age of the pilot, and calling the aircraft an aging WWII fighter, which is both reckless in the former case and patently untrue in the latter, this will be another of those situations in whcih the final analysis of all data will render an opinion. As for the truth, that may never be fully known.

CPMcGraw
09-19-2011, 05:06 PM
Interesting comments on the news channels...

There may have been a rudimentary "black box" taking some readings during the flight. It is not known exactly what readings, but it may include some engine data and possibly some control surface data. Apparently a few SSD cards (micro-cards?) were found in the debris and might be intact enough to give up their data.

Engine data might show if the throttle had been retarded before the crash; control surface data might indicate stick position, and if the pilot were fighting for control...

jharding58
09-19-2011, 05:40 PM
I think it may be more than rudimentary. There was a "real time data-management and telemetry system" installed in the airframe. Very much like the telemetry from Sprint Cup race cars. The SD cards were possibly from the cockpit camera but could just as easily have been from a spectator's camera. The disintegration of he aircraft was beyond anything I have seen.

There is a massive rumour mill already in place with talk of a mayday and 20+G on the initial pull to vertical. Not sure what the Ghost airframe was rated to but that would surely have snapped pieces off.