Estes F15 Engines
 

So, now we know - The motors at S&T were Estes F15s.... I wonder what these will cost?

I wonder if there will be problems when people try to fly these in heavy models that use composite 29mm motors. I wonder if they will work in the existing Estes 29mm kits - especially the Nike Smoke and Big Red Max?

Matt

If they are BP or any other low ISP propellant they will only be suitable for lightweight models. The modal delay will be short.

They are black powder, almost full F, but apparently not contest certified?

The F15 is an interesting choice for Estes. Peak thrust is lower than a D12 and avg thrust isn't much higher. I hope this is just a beginning.

Just in case some of you didn't get the NAR email...

:cool: Any new news is good news in my book. Anyone have any idea what the typical time period is between certification and product in stores? (Not that I've had the chance to fly an E12 yet. :o But then, that might not be a bad thing.)

Thanks for posting the specs.

Just seems like a strange motor to market, really. I'd consider that to be a 'hot' E motor really.....just does spec over into F range.

What one would use it in other than some min diameter rockets, I'm not sure. Some what like the old FSI F7s........they made good 1/100 scale Saturn V thrust build-up scale launcher motors (two placed in opposing direction in the flame trench of the scale launch pad......looked pretty realistic).


Earl

The won't get contest certification until they are generally available.

We haven't got the RASP file done yet but if you pick some numbers off the curve on this sheet and plug them into your favorite simulation program you'll have an answer.

Thanks for the info, Matt & Bill.

Scott

Now that this information is out I can add the following. Except for the Mega Dear Red Max these BP F engines fly all of the new Pro Series 2 rockets just fine. I've flown models up to 24 ounces with these engines and they all flew perfect. I know I would NOT fly a 24 ounce model with a D12 but they fly fine on these 29mm BP motors.

John Boren

That surprises me. When I looked at the curve I had the same thought as Matt - this looks like trouble in the big Estes kits, especially with that long build up to max thrust.

So thanks for the info and looking forward to seeing these!

I forgot to mention that I have also flown many two stage rockets with these motors and the only issue to date is recovering the upper stage!

John Boren

As George Takei is wont to say:

Oh My . . . .

This is . . . wow.

Are they powerful enough for a reasonably built 1/100 Estes Saturn V with a 29mm mount ?
Or are we talking Cruise Missile ?
Will they be sold in the proper 3-pak fashion ?

How about some PORT-BURNERS with a REALISTIC peak thrust level instead ???????
Hmm ?

That's great news. Given the 60g propellant mass, presumably under 62.5g TEW, this must allow them to be shipped in the same hazard class as you already ship E15 motors. This is definitely a total departure for Estes similar to but quite better than the FSI F7. HAPPY THANKSGIVING 2012! So are you also going to make a 39-40 N-s "full E" or is that too much product fragmentation?

That's 3.45 sec burn time. To me that short of a time reduces many of the concerns I had for even fatter streamlined models. No Saturn V's here (except maybe piston launched :D ), but I can see why John says the existing Pro line of kits will fly with those. Being BP the prices ought to be somewhat similar to the E15 on a per gram basis.

I will really be curious to see the new casing. Maybe I'll buy 10,000 of them and make some APCP motors with them. I did some successful experiments (customer deliveries) with 24mm APCP in spiral phenolic and NOZZLELESS motors (certified!) in traditional convolute wound cases.

These fit in a very wide range of U.S. Rockets kits. 4x as many kits as Estes offers. Masking tape thrust ring! Check out Sonic 160 (BMR2 series) and Two the Limit (AMR series). Everyone needs a Screamer! BMR2 series and available now from USR or Bellevue Hobbies email= sales@bellevuehobbycenter.com .

Jerry

NAR:

The following motor has been certified by NAR Standards & Testing for general use as a Model Rocket Motor effective November 25, 2012.
Estes:

F15-0,4,6,8
29mm x114mm
49.61 Newton-seconds Total Impulse
25.26 Newtons Peak Thrust
14.38 Newtons Average Thrust

Propellant mass: 60.0 grams

Top 10 U.S. Rockets kits to use the NEW Estes F15 motor
 

Top 10 rockets that can use the Estes F15 right now:

Aero-Roc (BMR) 2.25" x 35"
Banshee (BMR) 2.25" x 42"
Interroc (BMR) 2.25" x 44"
Weghtlofter (AMR) 2.25" x 35"
Two The Limit (AMR) 2.25" x 65"
Miniroc 1.2 (SS)(BMR3) 1.22" x 21"
Fire & Forget (SS) 1.22" x 27.5"
Star (SS) 2.25" x 40.5"
Mosquito 2.2 (SS) 2.25" x 17.5"
Micro-Interroc (18mmMM) 1.22" x 21"
Screamer (BMR2) 2.22" x 22"

Sonic Series - Sonic 160 (BMR2) 1.22" x 34"
El Lubbo (AMR)(BMR2) 4" x 46" (not in stock)
Tomahawk 1.2 (BMR3) 1.22" x 21"
Arcon 1.2 (BMR3) 1.22" x 21"
Sniper (BMR3) 1.22" x 25"
Pillar of Fire 29mm (CC) 4" x 89" (not in stock) 7x29mm

Not near full F. Only 50ns from 60gms of propellant. Only 4.5" long.

Should be ok up to about 1.5 maybe 1.75 lbs. lift off weight? Should be fine for all the current Pro Series II rockets. A little iffy on the big Red Max.

Contest certification is dependent on availability. So that won't happen until they actually reach the market.

Cluster?

Bill, were these the motors you guys were testing?

Wild-arse guess:

Down the road a bit we'll get the 29mm high-thrust "E".

That is, a port-burning E in the same casing as the F15.

Hopefully much more reliable than the old FSI E60!

These motors are good to 1/2 the model rocket liftoff mass limit. They have 1/2 the model rocket propellant mass limit. [Trip Barber rule. Blue ribbon committee. 1984]

Suggestion from the people at Jerry. Align the FAA 125g limit to the DOT and the NAR and the NFPA limits.

Or better, make the ATF no limit under a certain (1 meter per second) burning rate be exempt under ATF, plus now DOT and USPS. Safety and liberty saved, and no adverse impact.

Well, except to the credit card of the user! GDP Growth and tax revenue increase. . . .

I want to buy a 125g FAA exempt motor in hobby stores. I want to put it in an airframe that limits altitude to football fields most of the time, to a mile most of the time and whatever in a minimal mass rocket. Damage control.

Model rocketry. Zero death rate. >800m launchings and under 5 serious injuries and that includes climbing trees to recover them! Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence.

Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, etc. No, really.

Yes, hopefully MUCH more reliable!


Earl

The basic technology has not changed in 2000 years.

This is some of the best news for model rocketry in a while! Congratulations to the engine gurus at Estes for this accomplishment. They are essentially a "bring back" of the Centuri Mini-Max "EB" engines from 1971. I never got a chance to fly those because it happened just after Semroc went insolvent and I was starting a career in electronics.

They are very close to these Mini-Max engines in specifications and probably even closer to the actual delivered performance. Granted, they are not the port burning for high lift, but they do fill a need and will be a lot of fun to watch.

The slow ramp up and low peak thrust will present challenges for heavier rockets, but they ARE mid-power engines and most mid-power rockets are flown off rods longer than 3 feet. I agree with John that the biggest problem will be finding the rockets.

NOW we can finally do a two-stage SLS Firefly!

You know I can't tell you if they were or weren't.

I disagree. I wrote a program that took into account thrust before liftoff for composite motors with a build-up period. The only issue with those cases is the thrust on the moment of "thrust vs. gravity" till "launch rod departure speed" is achieved. It is actually less of a problem for BP vs. (old school) APCP.

I believe in 1/8 x 18", 1/8 x 36", 1/4" x 48" and 1/2" x 72" rods as a general rule now. Rails of 3 and 6 feet. depending on power.

Nothing wrong with two piece steel or aluminum with steel connectors.

Jerry

Since I don't know how to attach a video here I've instead provided a link to the very first
F two stage rocket I tested at Estes. Sorry but this clip only shows the first stage engine and not the ignition of the second stage since my camera shut down. This model is two inches in diameter.

NO these motors don't have a big kick off the pad but they have a long burn, couple that to an upper stage with another three seconds of burn and you have a real high flying rocket. Like I stated before I've flown 24 ounce rockets with NO problem at all with these motors.



http://johnboren.com/F_Two_StageBoost.wmv


John Boren

And you have some very suitable kits in your SLS line already. I've an SLS AeroDart in the ready-to-finish stage and already have a 29mm mount for it. Hmmmmmm........ :)

Hi, John !

I was hoping the video showed staging, etc.

My main concern would be weather-cocking on breezy days. I see this motor as being fine on dead calm days, or on models with very little fin area.

Any word on pricing and packaging, yet ?

Dave Fitch

Listening to the audio portion of that video it appears considerable tube ID is shot through the nozzle mid burn and onward. How much of the casing is eroded during the firing? Thanks for releasing the Estes F15 or, 29mm 50F14-4-VBP (ILP method). It has already stimulated some kit sales here. That didn't take long!

Just Jerry

My #1 Estes motor wish is a high thrust D in the E casing. Gain experience for the future high thrust E in the F casing . . .

Here's a blow up of the photo of the motors from MIT/TRF.

John, does this use Vulcanite?

What's interesting is the confluence of folks who have coalesced around Estes to help it flourish.

From 11-25-12 MIT/NAR data:

11.15 lb-sec
0.1325 lb pro
84.15 lb-sec / lb

That's about double the ISP of BP.

When we put Estes motor grains in composite cases with nozzles set to about 600-800 psi initial the ISP was well over 100.

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/4-83/CRm.4-83.13.w.jpg

Jerry

I'm sorry but I can't give out any specfic information on the motors composition, packaging or pricing. All this will come out soon enough and it's not my place to give out this information.

John Boren

Congrats! These are 29mm nominal by 114mm nominal so about 1.125 x 4.48". Same size as certified USR SU F's were. The old Estes APCP F used the exact grain geometry as our long prestanding F40/F80 motors.

Well, What I infer from this is :

(1) Composition - They are not "traditional" BP. If they were, disclosure would not be an issue.

(2) Pricing - I anticipate they will be relatively expensive. As a result, they will likely be sold individually.

Just my opinion, based on what I read . . .

Dave F.

Hmm . . . Do I detect a propellant here that could FINALLY allow Team USA to compete against the CZECH DELTA motors and, possibly, give them an "edge" ???

Dave F.

The F15 is traditional black powder. The S&T data states it is.

Not sure what Jerry is quoting from, since nothing from the NAR is in imperial units, but if you're talking about the F15, the S&T report says it is black powder, and the performance appears along the lines of black powder performance (as Carl said, comparing to the old Mini-Max F16 motors. F16 was 57ns on 62.5 gms stated vs F15 50ns on 60 gms measured)

Now, the "Pressable AP" propellant that has been described in patent filings and speculated about would be nifty, if it is shelf-stable and can be handled by the current machinery. But only Estes knows.

(note: as far as I know, all Estes-specific propellant formulations have been called "Vulcanite" in patent literature. I don't think this has anything to do with Scott Dixon's involvement in the Pressable AP project)

Yes, I was commenting on what I understood the "Vulcanite EB-75" to be . . .

Were you referring to this ?

http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wi...004065332A2.pdf

Dave F.

Yep.