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-   -   Something to raise cohetero's blood pressure... (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=9399)

luke strawwalker 06-06-2011 10:14 PM

Something to raise cohetero's blood pressure...
 
Talk about abuse of power...

This guy has good grounds for a lawsuit-- and this COULD go to the Supreme Court because of its implications on just what constitutes 'legal tender'...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upsho...-fee-in-pennies

Who says we don't live in a police state??

Later! OL JR :)

mycrofte 06-07-2011 05:42 AM

I read that too! And it makes note of other instances of people doing that and the law stepped in.

If they have the support, someone should take that to a federal court. Either it is legal tender or not!

Shreadvector 06-07-2011 07:28 AM

While he was alive, I often talked with and e-mailed the head of the Coin Coalition. he was a very cool lobbyist (not like the 'evil' lobbyists you see in many movies). Anyway, this subject came up many years ago and he gave me the name and number of a very high priced attorney who happened to be a big time coin expert and former president of the American numismatics Association (ANA) and told me to give him a quick call because he could explain the basics of the laws and legal precedent (did I spell that correctly?).

In this case the guy dumped them all over and was clearly guilty of the actual crime he was charged with. He was not charged for paying with one cent coins.

Normally, you are expected to use rolled coin if there are large numbers. Those rolls are subject to verification (they can be taken to a bank in a bulk bag full of the rolls and then put into a coin counter - if you are short you will be debited).

Over 100 one cent coins has been ruled excessive (don't have the exact wording/terminology/case reference), so even if rolled, paying in one cent coins can be refused if over $1.

Now, for denominations that some idiot cashiers react stupidly over - like dollar coins or Two Dollar Bills - if you have a "debt", and they do not have a posted policy stating they will refuse specific listed denominations, they are legally required to accept your payment in "legal tender" for that "debt". If you have not incurred a "debt", then they can refuse your money - period. If you are ordering food at a fast food counter and have not gotten the food yet, there is no "debt". At a restaurant, after you have eaten the food and go to pay, you have "debt".

Don't create a public disturbance and you won't get arrested.

ghrocketman 06-07-2011 09:08 AM

What this guy did should be perfectly legal.
I place more blame on the cops when they enforce ******* laws like this one.

luke strawwalker 06-07-2011 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
While he was alive, I often talked with and e-mailed the head of the Coin Coalition. he was a very cool lobbyist (not like the 'evil' lobbyists you see in many movies). Anyway, this subject came up many years ago and he gave me the name and number of a very high priced attorney who happened to be a big time coin expert and former president of the American numismatics Association (ANA) and told me to give him a quick call because he could explain the basics of the laws and legal precedent (did I spell that correctly?).

In this case the guy dumped them all over and was clearly guilty of the actual crime he was charged with. He was not charged for paying with one cent coins.

Normally, you are expected to use rolled coin if there are large numbers. Those rolls are subject to verification (they can be taken to a bank in a bulk bag full of the rolls and then put into a coin counter - if you are short you will be debited).

Over 100 one cent coins has been ruled excessive (don't have the exact wording/terminology/case reference), so even if rolled, paying in one cent coins can be refused if over $1.

Now, for denominations that some idiot cashiers react stupidly over - like dollar coins or Two Dollar Bills - if you have a "debt", and they do not have a posted policy stating they will refuse specific listed denominations, they are legally required to accept your payment in "legal tender" for that "debt". If you have not incurred a "debt", then they can refuse your money - period. If you are ordering food at a fast food counter and have not gotten the food yet, there is no "debt". At a restaurant, after you have eaten the food and go to pay, you have "debt".

Don't create a public disturbance and you won't get arrested.


:rolleyes:

Leave it to Fred to come up with some arcane legal argument to defend a capricious police action...

The guy paid the bill... how he paid it is his business, unless he paid it with chickens. If he came in and dumped a 5 gallon bucket of pennies on the counter, you might have a point. If he came in and set them on the counter in a bag and said "here ya go" peaceably I'd say the cop overreached...

I find it INFINITELY amusing that fred of all people-- the man who wants to burn every greenback ever made and FORCE all the citizens to have to use his heavy, STUPID, CUMBERSOME dollar coins (that NOBODY but him and his eclectic clique of coin afficianadoes wants, as should become obvious by the COMPLETE FAILURE of EVERY dollar coin release by the US Mint when people simply REFUSE TO USE THEM and for GOOD REASON!) would be diametrically opposed to someone paying a bill with legal tender that happens to be small coinage...

ROFLMAO!!!! :chuckle:

Later! OL JR :)

Shreadvector 06-07-2011 10:02 AM

I'm not opposed to paying the bill in coins.

I am opposed to an A-hole dumping the coins so they roll all over the place. A clerk should not have to hunt for coins all over the office that rolled off a counter.

Paying the bill in coins was not the charge and is not illegal. The A-hole behavior is illegal and is what he was charged with.

http://www.thehotglove.com/2011/06/...l-bill-pennies/

Earl 06-07-2011 10:18 AM

This seems to fall in the category of 'malicious compliance'.

Yeah, the guy has a 'right' to pay the way he did, but he seems to be doing it in such a way to be as much of a pain as possible....on purpose. Not sure that I would want to be on the receiving end of that.

Like if your boss got ticked off at you and decided to have your 'paycheck' delivered to your house in the form of $4000 worth pennies and deposits them on your front yard. He's 'paid his debt' to you, but has placed probably an 'unreasonable' burden on you to easily handle the payment. It certainly would not seem to be in the proper spirit of paying your salary and I suspect many people would be highly disturbed if they received their monthly salary in that fashion.

Earl

tbzep 06-07-2011 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
Like if your boss got ticked off at you and decided to have your 'paycheck' delivered to your house in the form of $4000 worth pennies and deposits them on your front yard.

If I could get $4000 every pay period, I'd take it in pennies in a heartbeat!!!! And I only get paid once a month. :rolleyes:

STRMan 06-07-2011 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
If I could get $4000 every pay period, I'd take it in pennies in a heartbeat!!!! And I only get paid once a month. :rolleyes:


If you spent more time trying to sell those incredible BP staging pictures you take, I suspect you would be a millionaire by now. :chuckle:

luke strawwalker 06-07-2011 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
I'm not opposed to paying the bill in coins.

I am opposed to an A-hole dumping the coins so they roll all over the place. A clerk should not have to hunt for coins all over the office that rolled off a counter.

Paying the bill in coins was not the charge and is not illegal. The A-hole behavior is illegal and is what he was charged with.

http://www.thehotglove.com/2011/06/...l-bill-pennies/


Oh, ok... I'll agree with you there...

Course it didn't SAY that he dumped the coins everywhere that I recall... I says he dropped them on the counter and demanded they count them and give him a receipt... which is fine-- I demand a receipt 95% of the time because I don't trust the A-holes working in most places nowdays...

SO, I *sorta* agree with you on principle...

BUT, the guy had a point-- he disagrees that he even owes the bill in the first place... so naturally he's going to be pissed and let that show. That's part of customer service-- if you can't take it, get the f^ck out of that line of work-- it's part and parcel of it. Lord knows my wife (and I for that matter, when I worked at JCPenney's) got plenty of crap from people even when we were in the right and they were CLEARLY in the wrong-- but you smile and explain it and go on... there is NO sacrosanct "right" not to have to put up with, as you put it, "A-hole behavior" in a customer service position. If he threatened them or tried to put hands on them, then yeah, they don't have to put up with that... but if he plunks down a couple bags of pennies on the counter and tells them "here's your f*ing money; I'm paying it even though I don't owe it because of yall's sorry bookkeeping, gimme my **** receipt" then they and the cop were in the wrong... Maybe you and I both are making assumptions-- I'm thinking the guy was maybe not as much an A-hole as he was, and maybe your assuming he was MORE of an A-hole then he actually was...

I went in the TSC store the other day to get some sickle hay mower parts... TSC has been slowly morphing into a 'dog and pony' store for the last several years-- they've never been particularly good about keeping stuff in stock-- even when I was row-crop farming and needed a few sprayer fittings, I'd usually have to buy five fittings to do the job of the one fitting they didn't have in stock that I needed... and more than a few times I walked out and went elsewhere to find what I need rather than buy $10 in parts to diasychain together to do the job of the $2 part I needed that they didn't have. Same thing with the mower parts... after sifting through everything they had (I guess the stupid kids they hire there only sort parts by color instead of numbers) I finally managed to find TWO IH sickle guards in amongst the New Holland guards-- they only had TWO of the IH ones-- one in it's proper bin, the other mixed in with the 8 or so NH guards; nothing was labeled, and there was a poor selection and not many of any of the parts at all. No chart for finding the correct sickle knife sections either, though they had TWO disc mower blade charts tied to the wall, so I had to flip and read the fine print on six boxes of sickle sections to find the right one... they did have a universal pack of rivets, and some universal will-fit wear plates... but I was pretty PO'd about having to dig through all this looking for the parts that SHOULD have been in the proper bin. I asked a dumb kid wandering through if they had any more sickle guards-- "Uh, if we do, it'd be in the stuff we got in today, and we won't have it out til tomorrow"... I asked him curtly but politely, "well, would it kill you to go look and SEE if yall have any more???" He did and returned a couple minutes later (probably just stood in the back circle-jerking for a minute and came back and said "Nah, we don't have none" and kept going. After sorting some more I finally started looking for the plow bolts that attach the guards to the bar... by this time I was pretty darn PO'd... not finding any I stopped an old guy walking to the stockroom and asked him, "do yall have plowbolts for these guards??" He's like "um, man, I don't know" and about this time the store manager comes walking back to the stockroom and he asks him.

Now, after all this hunting and looking for the plowbolts on top of it, I was SEVERELY PO'd and had already decided if they didn't have the plowbolts, I wasn't buying ANY of the crap-- I'd have to hit at least 3 more stores to even get the 6 guards I needed, or go to the IH dealer, and pay more for it, and if I was going to have to do that, I might as well buy it all from him and have one-stop shopping... I had several other items I intended to buy with the mower parts, but by this point I'd just HAD IT!

The manager blows me off and says "Naw, they quit carrying plow bolts a couple years ago..." (in this tone of voice like I was a complete dumb@$$ for even asking). I held up a guard and showed the tapered square bolt holes and said "well, that's what these take!" He was like, "Is there a problem?" I said "Yeah, there is... this sh!t is all jumbled up, not sorted-- might as well be in a big pile on the floor, you don't have but one or two of half the different guards, your out of a lot of them altogether, though you do have a bin half full of New Holland guards, there's no labeling or chart for ANY of this stuff out here, I just spent 15 minutes sorting through the stuff, and through the knife sections, and now yall don't even have the d@mn bolts to hold this stuff together... " He smart@sses me then, saying, "Well, we don't sell much of this old sickle crap; we're slowly getting out of the business cuz nobody uses this junk anymore... "

I REALLY had it then and said, "well, f^ck... if you're getting out of the business, THEN GET OUT OF THE F*ING BUSINESS-- screw it, I'm not buying any of this sh!t here... If I have to go pay more for it at the IH dealer, I'll just buy it ALL from him and not half-@ss it with yall..." SO I just threw the whole d@mn mess up on the shelf and turned to walk out. The manager got PO'd and half yelled "you don't have to be throwing stuff" I just half yelled over my shoulder, "IF YALL DON'T WANT TO BE IN THE BUSINESS, THEN GET OUT OF THE F*ING BUSINESS-- DON'T HALF-@SS PLAY LIKE YOUR IN BUSINESS!" and I walked out... He yelled again, "you don't have to be throwing stuff"... I just tossed it in a pile on the shelf-- If I'd have THROWN it somebody would have been in the hospital! I just walked out...

Whatever happened to "the customer is always right"??? I know when *I* was in customer service, had I acted to a customer the way HE did, even if the customer was extremely PO'd like I was and tossed all the crap on the shelf and walked out, had I smarted off like that to the customer I'd have had my walking papers real quick...

SO maybe, just maybe, the A-hole was on the other side of the counter from the customer... (at the Dr.s office in question).

Later ! OL JR :)


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