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-   -   New? version of Estes Electron Beam.... (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=6475)

BEC 01-24-2010 12:07 AM

New? version of Estes Electron Beam....
 
launch conroller with a non-replaceable continuity bulb?

I just picked up an Alpha III starter set at one of the LHS yesterday. In it was a variation on the Electron Beam launch controller I have not seen before. It's orangish yellow rather than black (which I have seen). But the continuity bulb is behind an apparently non-removable translucent dome. Inside, the area where the switch and bulb contacts are is covered by a glued-in-place plastic cover. It appears this version is intended to not be serviceable at all (or modifiable to reduce the continuity current, which is 210 mA with a fresh set of Kirkland cells).

There is also a new statement on the big warning label about only using Estes igniters - that others may fire "unexpectedly" - a clear reference to Quest Q2G2s it seems. This label says "revision 02-09". A black one acquired in the past year has a label revision 09-07.

One positive aspect of this new version is that the solder connections to the micro clips are covered with heat shrink which goes a good way up that leg of the clips - slightly reducing the chance they'll short together there and providing better strain relief at that connection.

It bugs me that it will be harder to replace that bulb with an LED in this one so as to lower the continuity current to Q2G2-safe levels. But it will serve the purpose for which I got it in the short term as it is.

nvrocketeer 01-24-2010 09:05 AM

Hmm. Well, can't fault them for not recognizing the reality, but honestly, how hard would it have been to rework the thing to let consumers use the Estes launcher with all igniters? Seems to me that's a more bankable approach. On the flipside, the Electron Beam hasn't ever been the be-all/end-all of launchers -- 6V AA cells just can't do certain things.

C'est la vie.

Mark II 01-24-2010 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvrocketeer
Hmm. Well, can't fault them for not recognizing the reality, but honestly, how hard would it have been to rework the thing to let consumers use the Estes launcher with all igniters? Seems to me that's a more bankable approach.
Two words: market dominance. Seriously, if I were them, I wouldn't bother with it either (at least not for now). What would they gain by making their controller compatible with their competitor's igniters? Would it sell more Electron Beam controllers? I doubt it. Most of their sales are not of the EB as a stand-alone product, but rather as an item that is bundled into their starter sets and launch sets. Buyers in that target market aren't going to see a Tandem-X launch set on the shelves at Walmart and think, "Hmmm, I wonder if the controller in this box is compatible with Quest's Q2G2 igniters?" The low firing current for Quest's igniter drives buyers who want a low-priced handheld controller to purchase Quest's own controller, which is a nice bonus for Quest. (Of course they realize that over in Pagosa. ;) ) The price for the Quest controller, when purchased as a stand-alone product, is much lower than the Electron Beam's stand-alone price ($15.29 vs. $34.29), and is about the same price as a 3-pack of D21's. It would not be a terrible financial drain to pick up the Quest controller as a second unit, even for me. (I don't know how long its leads are, though.) Quest's controller is also extendable for longer battery life (more launches per session) with the Quest X-ternal Battery Connector.

The Electron Beam controller can still be hacked, though, sealed or unsealed. ;)

The EB controller in my Moon Mutt launch set is black and can be partially dismantled. The listing of the controller at Estes' website shows the new yellow version in the main photo, and a black one in an additional photo. (When the Electron Beam was introduced in 1987 it was blue, like the current "E" controller. In 1992, the color as changed to yellow. It was still shown in yellow in the 1998 Estes catalog, but by 2004, when I bought my Alpha III Starter Set, Estes was using the black plastic housing for it.)

MarkII

blackshire 01-24-2010 07:26 PM

Perhaps the best iteration of the Electron Beam Launch Controller is the molded-in-blue plastic version that the Chinese firm called Sky produces (carried by Apogee Components, see: http://www.apogeerockets.com/sky_launch_system.asp ). It uses an LED for its continuity light, and its 5 meter (16.5') long firing leads are slightly longer than the 15' firing leads of the Estes and Quest Launch Controllers. (Sky's launch pad is also quite nice, being made of the tougher and somewhat more flexible yellow plastic that was used in the older Estes Porta-Pad II [see: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXF545 ].)

luke strawwalker 01-24-2010 08:19 PM

As someone said, it can be 'hacked'... in fact to upgrade it to something better in any meaningful way basically requires you to hack it to replace the dinky wire inside the thing... so it's not that much harder to replace the bulb while you're in there...

Later! OL JR :)

Doug Sams 01-24-2010 09:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark II
What would they gain by making their controller compatible with their competitor's igniters?
To keep themselves from getting sued when someone's rocket goes off prematurely? Isn't that probably why they've added the warning label? Not that that isn't good regardless of motivation.

Doug

.

Mark II 01-24-2010 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
To keep themselves from getting sued when someone's rocket goes off prematurely? Isn't that probably why they've added the warning label? Not that that isn't good regardless of motivation.

Doug

.
But they already say (and have said for decades, going back to when Vern Estes ran the company) to use their launch equipment with Estes products only. And how can Estes be held responsible if someone decides to use their controller with a product that was produced by a competitor after Estes had started producing its product? Estes has never claimed that the EB could be used with any other igniters besides their own. If anyone were to ever be sued, it would be much more likely to be Quest, for releasing an igniter that was likely to fire prematurely when it was hooked up to the industry's leading launch controller. After all, this is why Quest itself also includes similar warnings with the Q2G2 igniters now.

But so what if the Electron Beam launch controller out of the box can't be used with Q2G2s? Is it the only controller of its kind out there? Is there some rule somewhere that compels us to use the EB and only the EB when we want to launch rockets with black powder motors? As both Black Shire and I have mentioned, there are other self-contained handheld launch controllers on the market that will work fine with them, starting with Quest's own product. In addition to the Sky controller that Black Shire mentioned, there is also the Pratt Hobbies FuillBoost handheld launch controller. With these other choices available, why would anyone kvetch about why Estes doesn't make its controller compatible with Quest's igniters?

MarkII

blackshire 01-25-2010 12:22 AM

From a business owner's perspective, there are three good reasons (one being legal and two being psychological) to warn users of one's product to *not* use it with competitors' similar products.

[1] Estes has control of their own QC (Quality Control) checking system, but they have no control over their competitors' QC systems. (I'm not implying that Quest or other manufacturers have slip-shod, lousy QC or poor quality products; I'm just saying that Estes has no control over their QC and vice-versa.)

[2] If, hypothetically, a model rocketeer used a very off-QC specification (or even on-QC specification) Quest Q2 or Q2G2 igniter with an Estes Electron Beam Launch Controller and it caused an injury by igniting prematurely (say, a child in his/her excitement forgot to remove the safety key after the previous launch and hooked up the igniter to the still-live circuit), it could cause negative publicity for Estes even though they weren't at fault.

[3] Some people have a very exaggerated sense of brand loyalty and will, if advised to do so by a given brand's manufacturer, only use Brand X's accessories with Brand X's products. As silly as this sounds, I can cite instances of this that I have encountered personally:

(A) My cousin Iola would only buy Del Monte brand canned vegetables, even after several family members pointed out to her less expensive generic canned vegetables that were packaged at the very same cannery.

(B) My friend Norman only uses Toyota-packaged fluids (from his local Toyota Service Depot) in his Toyota car, even though much less expensive fluids manufactured to the same specifications are available at any automotive parts store. (A mutual friend of ours, Gary, once asked him if he only used Toyota-brand air in his car's tires.) :-)

(C) My friend Gary noticed that 3-M's Post-It Notes are often sold under two brand labels--Scotch (the same brand as Scotch Tape) and Highland. The Scotch brand Post-It Notes are no different in quality from the Highland brand Post-It Notes as both are made by 3-M, but the Scotch brand ones sell for significantly higher prices because some people will pay more for the Scotch name (perhaps they think the Scotch ones are of higher quality).

I admit that I am partially sympathetic with the brand-loyal folks who are in Categories "B" and "C," although my reasons may be different from theirs. For example, if Estes produced Centuri-brand model rocket motors, "Sure-Shot" igniters, and launch pads, and sold them for prices comparable to those of their own Estes-brand products, I would--for purely nostalgic reasons--buy them to use with my reproduction Centuri model rockets (just as tbzep bought a Centuri Power-Pad to go with his Centuri Screaming Eagle and Akela-1 rockets). My "brand loyalty" would, however, be quite conditional in this case; if the Centuri-brand products were sold at a premium just for the name (as name-brand blue jeans are), I might buy one box of motors as a collector's item, but nothing more.

blackshire 01-25-2010 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
Gee, this took an interesting turn. I was mildly miffed that this latest EB (with the warning that appears to be about Q2G2s) has been made in a way
Are you okay? Your reply stopped in mid-sentence (like Ham station 8X3R replying to station 2X2L's CQ call and then suddenly falling ominously silent in Orson Welles's 1938 "War of the Worlds" radio broadcast).

Regarding your comment about reducing the continuity current to a Q2G2-safe level, how about installing a resistor of the appropriate "ohm-age" in parallel (across the light bulb) that could be cut into or out of the circuit using a miniature toggle switch? A "carbon comp" (carbon composition) resistor would be preferable to the common carbon film and metal film types, as a carbon comp resistor doesn't go "open" unless it is physically broken in half or one lead wire is pulled out of the case.

BEC 01-25-2010 01:17 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Wow, this has taken a turn I wasn't expecting. I wasn't advocating that Estes make the EB compatible with Q2G2s, I was just noting that at the same time they were (presumably) warning specifically against using them they also made it harder to make the EB compatible with low-current igniters by sealing in the "offending" incandescent bulb.

Sure, it can still be hacked, but I don't think I'll bother. The LED replacement lamps that have been discussed before, or the LED and resistor mod I have already done on the EB that's in my range box will be fine for one or two more. This new yellow one will just stay as it is, more than likely.

But, here are two pics - one showing the new warning label and the strain relief on the igniter clips, and another showing the backs off of one recent black EB and the new yellow one.


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