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-   -   Info on the Enerjet 1340, 1340/20 Fin Can Colors (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=17912)

K'Tesh 05-20-2019 10:34 AM

Info on the Enerjet 1340, 1340/20 Fin Can Colors
 
I've seen several photos online of the Enerjet 1340, and the 1340/20, and precious few of them from when they were in production. Annoyingly, those photos from "In the day" are all black and white. The color photos I've found could be originals, or clones of the kits.

So, I'm asking for your help. I'm only interested in authentic kits, and not clones.

Thanks!
Jim

ghrocketman 05-20-2019 01:06 PM

I have seen pictures of kits and built Enerjet 1340s with red/orange and blue fin cans. I have only seen black fin cans on built ones and not in kits, so don't know if those ever came in kits.

Initiator001 05-20-2019 01:57 PM

I have never seen an actual Enerjet 1340/20.

My understanding is that the model used red fin cans.

I have Centuri Orange and blue colored fin cans in other kits from that era but not red.

The red colored fin cans were/are rare.

K'Tesh 05-20-2019 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have seen pictures of kits and built Enerjet 1340s with red/orange and blue fin cans. I have only seen black fin cans on built ones and not in kits, so don't know if those ever came in kits.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I have never seen an actual Enerjet 1340/20.

My understanding is that the model used red fin cans.

I have Centuri Orange and blue colored fin cans in other kits from that era but not red.

The red colored fin cans were/are rare.


Thanks for that info!

Ok. So, we've firsthand confirmation that the 1340s came with red fins and blue fins at one time. I'm a little confused by the "/orange" remark. Did it come in orange too, or was the red fins one of those reddish orange colors that come up from time to time that could be red or orange depending on the person looking at it, and/or the lighting?

Outside of the red fin cans from Enerjet (as confirmed by ghrocketman), Centuri released them with the Argus (KB-9) and no other kits from Centuri/Estes as far as I know of.

So far, we've got nothing about white or yellow or black for stock Enerjet kits (yet)(though unlabeled photos exist for them, but are quite likely clones).

If anyone else has information on these old kits, please chime in.

Thanks!

I wonder if any of the people who were at Enerjet/Centuri back in the day are still around to ask. Does anybody know? Or know how to reach them?

MarkB. 05-20-2019 05:41 PM

Comrades:

A non-comprehensive list of kits that had the fin unit from Centuri/Estes will include:

Challenger II (Black)
Maniac (Blue)
Eliminator and Eliminator XL (Yellow)

Also, the Centuri M.A.R.S. Project static display had Blue fins (I have one still in the bag)

I too am going through an EnerJet cloning phase. Some vinyl EnerJet decals would be nice . . . .

LeeR 05-20-2019 06:23 PM

I’m tempted to buy a Cricut Maker. They not only cut vinyl for decals, but balsa up to 3/32”. The detail is amazing. The Maker lists for $399, but I’ve seen it on sale for $369 at Joann’s and Hobby Lobby this week.

If you just want to cut vinyl, the lower priced Cricuts work well. Check out their capabilities on YouTube.

Jerry Irvine 05-20-2019 07:32 PM

The 1340 existed as a kit and came only with red fin units and red nose cone and payload coupler for the thicker Mini-Max tube.

The 1340/20 was only in photos.

The 2250 and 2650 were actual kits.

Jerry

K'Tesh 05-20-2019 07:53 PM

Further research

Worthpoint has a kit that claims to be a 1340 with a blue fin can... There's some black and red parts in there too..

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthope...-1340-251820623

Some chatter in this thread indicates that it may have been a spev

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=8742

SEL 05-20-2019 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB.
Comrades:

A non-comprehensive list of kits that had the fin unit from Centuri/Estes will include:

Challenger II (Black)
Maniac (Blue)
Eliminator and Eliminator XL (Yellow)

Also, the Centuri M.A.R.S. Project static display had Blue fins (I have one still in the bag)

I too am going through an EnerJet cloning phase. Some vinyl EnerJet decals would be nice . . . .


Add the Estes ‘Long Shot’ 2 stager to the list - came w/2 black fin units.

SEL 05-20-2019 09:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
Thanks for that info!

Ok. So, we've firsthand confirmation that the 1340s came with red fins and blue fins at one time. I'm a little confused by the "/orange" remark. Did it come in orange too, or was the red fins one of those reddish orange colors that come up from time to time that could be red or orange depending on the person looking at it, and/or the lighting?

Outside of the red fin cans from Enerjet (as confirmed by ghrocketman), Centuri released them with the Argus (KB-9) and no other kits from Centuri/Estes as far as I know of.

So far, we've got nothing about white or yellow or black for stock Enerjet kits (yet)(though unlabeled photos exist for them, but are quite likely clones).

If anyone else has information on these old kits, please chime in.

Thanks!

I wonder if any of the people who were at Enerjet/Centuri back in the day are still around to ask. Does anybody know? Or know how to reach them?


The colors I know of are red, yellowish orange, blue and black.
The only one I haven’t seen personally is red.

Sean

Initiator001 05-20-2019 09:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
Thanks for that info!

>SNIP< Outside of the red fin cans from Enerjet (as confirmed by ghrocketman), Centuri released them with the Argus (KB-9) and no other kits from Centuri/Estes as far as I know of.



I just happened to be looking at a sealed Centuri Argus kit this afternoon and the molded fin unit was a pale orange color, not red.

SEL 05-20-2019 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I just happened to be looking at a sealed Centuri Argus kit this afternoon and the molded fin unit was a pale orange color, not red.

I think the original Challenger that came with a styrofoam glider had the yellowish fin can.

SEL 05-20-2019 10:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL
I think the original Challenger that came with a styrofoam glider had the yellowish fin can.


My mistake - the Discovery Starter Set had the yellow fin can and foam Hitch-Hiker glider (first offered in the 1986 catalogue):

K'Tesh 05-21-2019 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I just happened to be looking at a sealed Centuri Argus kit this afternoon and the molded fin unit was a pale orange color, not red.


Any chance of a photo?

Initiator001 05-21-2019 02:30 PM

Here's an old thread about this same topic:

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=784

jetlag 05-21-2019 06:13 PM

I have to ask, what is the incredible attraction so many of you nice folks have for these rockets? My guess is that it must be nostalgia? They are so simple 3 or 4fnc rockets.
Happy for you, though!😁

Allen

Earl 05-21-2019 06:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetlag
I have to ask, what is the incredible attraction so many of you nice folks have for these rockets? My guess is that it must be nostalgia? They are so simple 3 or 4fnc rockets.
Happy for you, though!😁

Allen


Nostalgia, yes to some degree, but also for me, rarety, and just as important, these rockets are some of the earliest roots to what would later evolve into composite high power rocketry.

Earl

Jerry Irvine 05-21-2019 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetlag
I have to ask, what is the incredible attraction so many of you nice folks have for these rockets? My guess is that it must be nostalgia? They are so simple 3 or 4fnc rockets.
Happy for you, though!😁

Allen

Nostalgia and unobtanium.

A dash of OCD.

Jerry Irvine 05-21-2019 08:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
Nostalgia, yes to some degree, but also for me, rarety, and just as important, these rockets are some of the earliest roots to what would later evolve into composite high power rocketry.

Earl
The actual roots of LMR and HPR are oft ignored due to early political squabbles that have long since passed. For example today at the Space Conference in Pasadena I saw John Krell. His name tag said Plasmajet. The first Posterboy HPR rocket was a Mongrel with 3 Plasmajet G88 and 2 Composite Dynamics G62 motors.

I was the Plasmajet dealer. I was the Composite Dynamics dealer. I was the Mongrel designer. I flew the rocket. I took massive heat from NAR over it too. NOT at a NAR event. Not even close.

Attached:
Irvine's Ace Mongrel with 3x Plasmajet G88 and 2x Composite Dynamics G62 flown to about a mile altitude and recovered by parachute. Just like a model rocket did back then in 1979, but considerably more powerful.

K'Tesh 05-22-2019 09:16 AM

They just looked so cool... And my allowance wasn't enough to score them. There was no home internet access, no forums, and no ebay back then. And then Centuri was gone (at least the separate product line was). Now these kits beg to be rescued from their bags, built and flown. Or if not available, cloned and remembered. Perhaps to inspire the next generation of future BARs.

A Fish Named Wallyum 05-22-2019 05:58 PM

I cloned one last year. On the day I flew it, it was the only rocket to fly back over the pads with the wind. All I can do now is remember it. :(

SEL 05-23-2019 12:05 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetlag
I have to ask, what is the incredible attraction so many of you nice folks have for these rockets? My guess is that it must be nostalgia? They are so simple 3 or 4fnc rockets.
Happy for you, though!😁

Allen



For me, anyway, it's 'the look'. A well designed rocket, no matter how simple, will maintain it's appeal and every one of the Enerjet SR series has that. Of all the rockets I bring to launches both with clubs and on my own, the SR1340, 1340/20 and SR2650' and the down-scaled variants I've built are the rockets that get the 'Wow!' comments - the ones I get the most questions about.
Another example is the Crown/SSRS Lasor 134 -very simple, sleek design
(though notice the similar fins to the SR2650...)


Estes take note: The down-scaled SR2650 for 13mm motors would make a great kit!

tbzep 05-23-2019 08:28 AM

I've seen photos of the SR1340, 1340/20 and SR2650 kits, but I've never seen literature on them. Where can I find the advertising literature? The 72 Enerjet catalog only has the Nike Ram, Athena, etc. I know we have plans on YORS, but I don't ever run across it in old catalogs, mailings, etc.

Earl 05-23-2019 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
I've seen photos of the SR1340, 1340/20 and SR2650 kits, but I've never seen literature on them. Where can I find the advertising literature? The 72 Enerjet catalog only has the Nike Ram, Athena, etc. I know we have plans on YORS, but I don't ever run across it in old catalogs, mailings, etc.


I think what you are looking for is here in the plans section:

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerjet.htm

On the 2650 plans, what is not obvious is that the full brochure opens when one clicks the line drawing.

This is the only advertising literature I've seen on these kits, other than originals of the same I have in my personal collection.

Hope this helps.


Earl

Jerry Irvine 05-23-2019 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
I think what you are looking for is here in the plans section:
http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerjet.htm
On those brochures reference is made to 29mm motors from 9-40 pound seconds

The E24 was 40 N-s 9 lb-sec. 1.7s burn
The F52 was 52 N-s 11.7 lb-sec. 1.0 sec burn
The F67 was 80 N-s 18 lb-sec. 1.2 sec burn
the G76 was 120 N-s 27 lb-sec 1.6 sec burn
Unobtanium H111 was 178 N-s 40 lb-sec. 1.6 sec burn

Put that in your rocket and fly it.

Just Jerry

SEL 05-23-2019 02:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
I cloned one last year. On the day I flew it, it was the only rocket to fly back over the pads with the wind. All I can do now is remember it. :(


Was this a clone of the 1340/20? The same thing happened in the final flight of mine.
Pointed it into the wind -admittedly it was a pretty stiff breeze out on the beach at Neskowin - and as soon as it left the rod it cruised off with the wind. Wonder if it has anything to do with the size of the payload section? Pretty large, light weight area ...

S.

teflonrocketry1 05-23-2019 11:14 PM

There is some new data about the aerodynamics of fins below a wider transition section. Check out the article titled "Increasing Rocket Aerodynamic Performance" by Thomas Salverson on page 42 in the May/June 2019 edition of Sport Rocketry. Essentially (on the right side of page 48) the portion of the fin inside the turbulent wake of the airflow behind a reducing transition doesn't do anything for the rockets stability. It is suggested that while a transition section below a wider payload section decreases the aerodynamic drag on a rocket, it induces a wake that interferes with and decreases the effectiveness of the rockets fins, and these fins should extend out beyond the rockets body until they are in the laminar airflow region beyond the diameter of the transition. I am working on a RockSim fix for this effect.

Also mentioned is that rail buttons create an asymmetric wake behind the rocket causing it to fly in an arc. Did you use launch lugs on your design that might have a similar effect? The original 1340/20 used a thin loops of wire for launch lugs visit: http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/enerj.../enj1340-20.pdf

SEL 05-24-2019 12:21 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
There is some new data about the aerodynamics of fins below a wider transition section. Check out the article titled "Increasing Rocket Aerodynamic Performance" by Thomas Salverson on page 42 in the May/June 2019 edition of Sport Rocketry. Essentially (on the right side of page 48) the portion of the fin inside the turbulent wake of the airflow behind a reducing transition doesn't do anything for the rockets stability. It is suggested that while a transition section below a wider payload section decreases the aerodynamic drag on a rocket, it induces a wake that interferes with and decreases the effectiveness of the rockets fins, and these fins should extend out beyond the rockets body until they are in the laminar airflow region beyond the diameter of the transition. I am working on a RockSim fix for this effect.

Also mentioned is that rail buttons create an asymmetric wake behind the rocket causing it to fly in an arc. Did you use launch lugs on your design that might have a similar effect? The original 1340/20 used a thin loops of wire for launch lugs visit: http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/enerj.../enj1340-20.pdf



Interesting - I'll pick up the magazine tomorrow. While the fins do extend somewhat beyond the payload diameter, it may not be enough if the wind is up. I used stand-off's for ( 2 ) lugs to fit a 1/4'' rod (see photo's below). I didn't know about the loop-lugs until long after I built mine (back in '96/'97) and rail buttons weren't common, so I just assumed the stock kit used the same style lug as the SR2250/2650.

I'd logged many flights on this model - I'm guessing upwards of 25 - in all kinds of weather, more than a few launches at the beach in similar winds. All were flown off a 4 foot 1/4'' stainless rod and as far as I can recall, all went where I aimed them. I had to go back to my original thread for this ( http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/show...&highlight=1340 ) to remind myself what motor I used and it may just have been the combination of stiff winds and the (relatively) long burn E9, but I still would have expected it to weathercock into the wind rather than with.


S.

stefanj 05-24-2019 02:11 PM

Wow, I love that shot of the launch in front of the ocean!

All of those models are nicely finished. The Crown model is a real "back in the day" type finish design; it reminds me of pictures in late-80s vintage catalogs.

SEL 05-24-2019 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Wow, I love that shot of the launch in front of the ocean!

All of those models are nicely finished. The Crown model is a real "back in the day" type finish design; it reminds me of pictures in late-80s vintage catalogs.


Thanks Stephan.
That day at the beach was no Day At The Beach; in addition to losing the 1340/20,
the upscaled Sprint landed in the ocean. That one dated back to the ‘96/‘97 time frame as well.

Jerry Irvine 05-25-2019 11:19 AM

The 1340-20 was effectively a SPEV. It used the available plastic fin unit and plastic Egg Crate payload to make a rocket, then aimed at university and commercial customers. The market for that was not at all developed and Enerjet was not doing considerable outreach to develop it.

In every relevant aspect Enerjet was before its time.

Jerry

5x7 05-25-2019 12:52 PM

I would have loved to see the business plan.
Creditor:
Sounding rockets were developed in part to to reach altitudes balloons can't reach. This is a tiny sounding rocket that goes to the same altitude any plane, kite or teathered balloon can reach. Why?

tbzep 05-25-2019 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5x7
I would have loved to see the business plan.
Creditor:
Sounding rockets were developed in part to to reach altitudes balloons can't reach. This is a tiny sounding rocket that goes to the same altitude any plane, kite or teathered balloon can reach. Why?

The answer would be, "The tiny sounding rocket can be inexpensively launched from almost anywhere at a moments notice, <whisper>while carrying a minuscule payload that is basically useless with today's so called miniaturization technology.</whisper>"

astronwolf 05-25-2019 02:43 PM

A sounding rocket... that would become an Estes Maniac/Eliminator. Or is it really the other way around? :rolleyes: Wish I had more of these fin cans.

tbzep 05-25-2019 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
A sounding rocket... that would become an Estes Maniac/Eliminator. Or is it really the other way around? :rolleyes: Wish I had more of these fin cans.

It became the Challenger II long before the Maniac/Eliminator.
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/81est026.html

astronwolf 05-25-2019 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
It became the Challenger II long before the Maniac/Eliminator.
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/81est026.html

Yeah whatever... same point...

tbzep 05-25-2019 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
Yeah whatever... same point...


Ahh, this explains it. :D

SEL 05-25-2019 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
Ahh, this explains it. :D



Special K...

ghrocketman 05-25-2019 10:41 PM

Hopefully he DROPPED A DEUCE IN THE URINAL too.

teflonrocketry1 05-25-2019 11:10 PM



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