Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Projects
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-07-2013, 03:40 PM
astronot's Avatar
astronot astronot is offline
Rockets & BP= Happy, Happy, Happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 298
Default GPS or Radio Beacon assisted recovery?

Can you use GPS or a Radio beacon to guide you rocket back to the launch pad once the parachute has deployed, given that the rocket obtains sufficient altitude to do so? I know you can use GPS to find your rocket as well as squealers. I want more assurance and control than that.

Has this been done already? If so, where can I buy a unit?

I know I'm not the first one to think of this and I certainly won't be the last.

Has this been done successfully? I'm reasonably sure it CAN be done. I know there are a lot of variables that impact a rocket's flight and recovery. That being said... I also know that some really smart people pursue Rocketry as a hobby. Surely someone has dabbled in it, had some success with it, has some small light weight system ready for installation.

To me, confidence in recovery efforts weighs more heavily on my mind than any other aspect of the rockets flight. If I'm not reasonably sure I can recover my rocket, I'm not gonna launch. Probably... I have been know to gamble, but I digress. What I'm really saying is, what we all know to well, and that is... "Take offs are optional, landings are mandatory."

I don't ask this question out of a need to increase my own laziness. I ask this question because, not all of us who enjoy rocketry have large wide open spaces to play in. It would be nice to be able to launch a rocket on a 2 or 3 acre field and be reasonably confident you could recover a rocket that has just climbed 1500 to 2000 ft.

In this day and age of launching tiny video cameras that record in HD, with tiny flash cards that are smaller than your fingernail and can store more information than a computer that was made just 10 years ago, dual deploy recovery systems, and the advances in R/C Planes and Helicopters, why do we, who enjoy model rocketry, who through no fault of their own have to launch in tight fields, or on breezy days, have to keep our fingers crossed that we get out rockets back.

I'm not smart enough to figure this one out on my own. I DO know that there are some very smart people out there in the world and in this hobby that could certainly develop or contribute to the development this recovery system. The components needed already exist. Micro servos, tiny radio receivers and batteries, Radio transmitters, micro processors, Micro SD cards, quality flyable parachutes, simple programming language, etc...

If anyone has something that works or knows of something, that is small enough and light enough to be added to most model rockets, please speak up.

The only real reason that I can see that this technology has not already been developed, is that it has in some way been outlawed. I certainly hope that is not the case.

Let me know your thoughts and wisdom.

David
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:16 PM
High Desert Rocketman High Desert Rocketman is offline
Junior Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9
Default

I may be wrong about this, as I am relatively new to the hobby, but I thought I read that it was illegal or against the safety policies to put a guidance system in a model rocket.

I can see why there would be legislation against this, in a domestic terrorism sort of way, it would be easy to construct a guidable explosive, chemical or biological payload or "dirty bomb" into a very small target area. Sounds like a Clancy novel or an NCIS episode. We need McGee on this! But whether it was guidable during powered flight, coasting or during descent may impact the legalities of the issue.

However, like you say, there are many smart folks out here on the forum and in the hobby as a whole, who could no doubt build a means to guide a rocket's descent.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-07-2013, 05:33 PM
astronot's Avatar
astronot astronot is offline
Rockets & BP= Happy, Happy, Happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 298
Default

The biggest threat to a Free People's Freedom, is a perceptual state of war. That was spoken or written by one of our Founding Fathers way back in the day. That being said...

I don't think anyone should have an issue with controlling a rocket's recovery legislatively, or otherwise. But like I said and you restated, there are some very smart people in this community, but I'll add to that, smart people don't necessarily reside in Washington. Not to mention that the general public can get whipped up into a frenzy over just about anything these days. So with that out there. Who knows where we stand legally at this point in time.

I do remember seeing some video footage some time back of an individual working on a GPS guided recovery system for his high power rocket with mixed results, but I don't know of anything done on a smaller scale.

David
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-07-2013, 06:06 PM
Solomoriah's Avatar
Solomoriah Solomoriah is offline
Incorrigible Kit Basher
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,888
Default

Egad.

Okay, first thing... an active guidance system that controls a rocket's flight while under thrust is against some rule or other; dunno if that's a safety code thing or an actual law. I also know that creating such a system is supposedly pretty darn hard.

But, controlling a rocket's flight after the engine is expended is apparently entirely legal, at least in the case of radio-controlled rocket gliders. The NAR has a safety code addendum specifically covering such vehicles.

Controlling the return of a conventional rocket would necessarily involve some sort of gliding control. I can imagine some sort of active parachute system which permits the control unit to open vents spaced around the sides, to encourage the rocket to move in a certain direction. However, I suspect it would be hard to overcome the wind in such a case, which would fail to meet the desires of the OP.

Further, the OP asks if there is such a system in existence now. I can't be 100% certain, but the answer appears to be "no."

One last pearl of wisdom... if you aren't losing them, you aren't flying them. Learning to deal with loss, and with loss of control, is one of the reasons I recommend rocketry for youth organizations. Kids today never learn about failure or loss; they play video games where losing just means you start over at the last save point. This teaches persistence, which is good, but it teaches that all you need is persistence and you'll always triumph, and that's not true.
__________________
NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:02 PM
astronot's Avatar
astronot astronot is offline
Rockets & BP= Happy, Happy, Happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 298
Default

You are correct Solomoriah. Dealing with lose and recovering from it is a valuable lesson to learn while young. My hats off to you and others who work with youth through Rocketry and other means.

There are those of us in the Hobby that build exceptional model rockets, or like to fly a collectors item or rare rocket from time to time, and would like a little insurance policy. It makes perfect sense to have something like this for HPR where you have hundreds of dollars tied up in Rocket, Material, and electronics. But I say it also makes perfect sense for those that hang out at the lower power band of the spectrum of rockets.

The cheap throw together, get your feet wet rocket kits are not what I'm concerned with recovering. I've lost my share of rockets over the years. I agree, that it makes you a better flyer.

You mentioned the chutes. You give a somewhat complex example of what would be needed. I saw a demonstration of a really simple design at a R/C airplane fly in. One of the participants dropped some green army men that had been up scaled to like 12 inches or so out of one of his airplanes. The little green army men had rectangular parachutes on them and two of his buddies where controlling them with radio controllers like they used on the planes. It was a 4 channel radio. To steer the army men on their decent the army men would pull either their left or right arm down or up to cause the parachute to twist on either edge of the chute. The effectively steered the army man and with a little skill one could land him on a target on the ground. We need to somehow learn to automate this with sensors, electronics, and software. I understood the concept at the time I saw if about 10 years ago, I just wish I had gotten a closer look or maybe taken some pictures.

David

Last edited by astronot : 11-07-2013 at 07:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:43 PM
Solomoriah's Avatar
Solomoriah Solomoriah is offline
Incorrigible Kit Basher
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,888
Default

Hah. See, I gave it about 30 seconds of thought. Just goes to show what more extensive thinking can get you.
__________________
NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-07-2013, 07:50 PM
Bob H's Avatar
Bob H Bob H is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Douglas, MA
Posts: 556
Default

A guy in my club has worked on this for quite some time with very limited success. You can find the details on his blog at:

http://nerdfever.com/?page_id=695
__________________
Bob Harrington
NAR #62740 L1
AMA #46042
CMASS & RIMRA Member
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2013, 09:33 PM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
BAR
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Needville and Shiner, TX
Posts: 6,134
Default

Guidance systems can and have been done... many times in many different ways... It's a misconception to think they're illegal. They aren't. They don't violate the safety code or the law, so long as they are not used to direct the rocket at a target with hostile intent.

George Gassaway did a sun-seeker rocket that homed in and flew towards the sun to guide the flight. It controlled the rocket in pitch and yaw, but not in roll. Worked well.

The Brittain Fraley website had a project for a roll-stabilized sun-sensing device to make the rocket a better, more stable camera platform. It used a series of light sensing diodes arranged radially around the rocket, on either side of a "central" sensor that would center itself so the sunlight was falling directly on it... if the rocket rolled to the left or right, the "center" sensor would lose voltage as the sunlight was no longer falling directly on it, and the flanking sensors would gain voltage as the light was falling more directly onto them... this would generate a signal that would steer fins to counteract this rolling motion and turn the rocket so that the sunlight was falling most directly on the central sensor. It had no control in pitch and yaw, strictly roll...

John Pursley has used RC aircraft anti-crash autopilots to make guidance systems for rockets and control their flight via servo-controlled gimbaled motor mounts. It uses a ring of sensors that detect the horizon position against a sensor on the other side of the rocket, and then uses that input into an onboard controller that then moves the appropriate servo to swing the motor mount the direction necessary to push the rocket back on course and keep it going straight up. Works great (as long as the motor is thrusting-- at burnout the control authority goes to nearly nil, so the rocket needs SOME level of inherent stability of it's own, although he flew finless designs with it (but not hammerhead designs). It controlled the rocket in pitch and yaw but not in roll...

RC control has also been done and is done on some gliding rockets... both during boost and glide. RC control allows control in all three axes...

As far as automated recovery is concerned, that area is far less developed. The idea has cropped up before, but AFAIK nothing much has been accomplished, certainly not to the point of being commercially available. Probably RC control of glide recovery is the most feasible design-- steerable parachutes at small scales is kinda questionable. Some folks have talked about using GPS to create some kind of "autosteer" system to control the recovery phase of the flight via either glide recovery or some type of gliding parachute. I don't know how well small-scale gliding parachutes work-- I DO know that Hobby Lobby International (not the huge chain store full of holiday decoration and scrapbooking junk in addition to their aisle of rocketry merchandise-- this is the RC company out of Nashville, TN) used to sell an RC "parachutist" that could be carried aloft under a model airplane and dropped from it, and a second RC pilot would control his chute via servos during descent. Still required an RC setup to fly, so not a "hands-off" automatic deal by any stretch. Not sure such a thing exists (yet).

I'm sure there's folks working on it, but nothing commercial and nothing notable has been reported that I'm aware of, and I'm pretty interesting in such things myself...

Later! OL JR
__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-07-2013, 09:49 PM
astronot's Avatar
astronot astronot is offline
Rockets & BP= Happy, Happy, Happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 298
Default

Thanks Bob. That link led me to some good information.

Some people are working on the concept. Lots of challenges involved. But none are insurmountable. Sort of like manned space flight. Keep trying and we'll get there some day.
My kids will live in a world where rocket eating trees and power lines are just a mild nuisance.

I honestly thought the concept would be a little further along than it is. Oh well. Keep hope alive.

David
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:00 PM
astronot's Avatar
astronot astronot is offline
Rockets & BP= Happy, Happy, Happy
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 298
Default

That's it Luke. RC parachutist. Neat little toys aren't they.



That could easily translate into R/C controlled para sail model rocket recovery, while we all wait on the Genius that invents the autopilot for it. Fingers crossed.

Well I tried to insert a picture, but it didn't work. I guess I'm not the Genius to save us all. Can't even work a forum properly. Oh well. Sigh.

Last edited by astronot : 11-07-2013 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024