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View Poll Results: What SU BP motor is most needed ?
18mm B14-x/B8-x with at least delays of 0,3,5,7 17 33.33%
18mm C5-x 11 21.57%
24mm D20-x 4 7.84%
29mm E/F50-x 5 9.80%
13mm B4-x 10 19.61%
13mm 1/2A3-0T 3 5.88%
18mm D8-x like the old Cox 13n-sec D8-0/3 1 1.96%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 12-18-2020, 08:44 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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I think that's why Aerotech makes composites. We've been waiting for Estes to make "hi-thrust" BP motors for what? 50 years, and it hasn't happened yet, and it's not going to happen. This is just beating a dead-horse to death.... The days of B14 are long gone never to return, and there''s never going to be a D30 or E30 or F50 in our lifetimes unless it's made semi-(il)legally by some 3rd party. let it be.

You know GH, a lot of people make 1/2/4/6/8 lb BP motors in the Pyrotech world......they could easily be modified for use in a model rocket..... Now of course you would have to make your own..... heck just buy a few pounds of 4Fg BP, press it to 10K in your own home-rolled kraft paper tubes .........In fact I've actually taken 20g 2 oz black powder motors out of skyrockets and used them in model rockets....they are all basically B14 or something near to that .....they all have that high thrust spike just like b14 did back in the day.
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  #52  
Old 12-18-2020, 09:34 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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The problem with "firework skyrocket" motors are that they are woefully inconsistent.
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  #53  
Old 12-19-2020, 08:28 AM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Not if you make them yourself....I apologize if my tone in my last post came across the wrong way GH....No harm meant.

Estes has had more than ample opportunity over many decades to create and sell high thrust BP motors and they just refuse to do it for a variety of reasons.

1. NFPA 1122
2. the CSPC
3. Insurance concerns
4. where's the Market?

Most Estes engines as you know are a kick spike thrust then a sustainer thrust ....

That's because of the design... small cored end burner..... the plus of this design is low chamber pressures such that the paper casing doesn't burst or the nozzle blows out, etc

Higher chamber pressures would require thicker paper casings to contain higher chamber pressure. How do you keep a pressed in place clay nozzle in place with these increased chamber pressures. Added weight and cost.

Does the average person know the difference in lighting the Core at the top versus the bottom?

If they were to create a real B14, or C20 or D40 or an E50 or an F60......you would have to use long cores which translate to high chamber pressure...... this high chamber pressure can lead to nozzle blow throughs, and catos, a clever euphemism for an explosion .... and if you think 1/4A-E catos are fun, wait till you have an E50 going off around your head.

Larger big cored engines are more prone to the effects of humidity and heat..... if they aren't stored in a cool dry place, they are more likely to go boom....

And then there's the question of MABEL......Large Drifts/Spindles and MABEL don't necessarily play well with one another..... That's NOT to say that the kinks couldn't be worked out.

I think this is why Vern Estes created small cored end burners and then went to a secondary method of drilling out the cores....

I don't see why Estes couldn't create in the 21st century an auto corer. Ed Brown once confided in me the type of drill bit they used and the rotation speed and depth, but I've forgotten it. So, it's very possible to do it with a machine with no people present.

So technically it's possible to do it in a safe way, but you still have the issues I enumerated above.

I personally wouldn't want a 13 yr old to have access to a D/E/F high thrust engine... Perhaps they would have to be restricted to 16 and above.....how are you going to enforce that? when 13 yr old can go out and get any drug they want or a gun on any street corner in America today? It's an accident just waiting to happen.

There's a reason the CSPC doesn't allow minors to purchase metal cased reloads without at least some form of adult supervision.

Heck when I was 13-14 a "friend" and I would shoot BB guns and bottle rockets at each other. Nobody ever got hurt. Heck, one 14 old "friend" shot me in the leg once with a pellet rifle...... and this "friend" and I duked it out several times after that for primal supremacy until we were 16.....

but that was 1967-69.....this is 2021...today we would have gotten real guns or pulled a knife and killed each other..... that's the way of the world.....

I think it's just a matter of time before Aerotech comes out with a B16/18 in composite form.......

Terry
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  #54  
Old 12-19-2020, 02:38 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I flew FSI F100's and E60's when I was like 12 yrs old.
Yeah, I have had big BP motors cato overhead and on the pad. Just sounds like a decent M80 or Silver Salute.
The FSI E60 in my experience actually had an over 50% cato rate.
I don't know how that firecracker stayed NAR certified.

I don't even believe the CPSC nor NFPA should even exist. Nanny-state nonsense agencies.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #55  
Old 12-21-2020, 01:46 PM
Neal Miller Neal Miller is offline
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Most FSI Hi thrust Motors had a tendency to blow. I think the E 60 was the worst and the D 20 was next. the F 100's that I used seamed to be very trustworthy, but if you dropped any of them you could expect a CATO. the propellant would start to burn and then a chunk would break off and block the nozzle and KA- BOOM. 20-50 grams of BP Burning in less then .5 seconds makes for a lot of volume / pressure and one huge blast. I started using Flight Systems products in the early 1970's, mostly D 18's and E 5's. I did not find out about the bigger motors until the 80's.
I can nearly think about every FSI Motor I burned something like 25 or so, I still have 11 or so that I never used.
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  #56  
Old 12-21-2020, 01:52 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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The D20 was a lot more cato prone than the D18.
I have several D18s, F7s, and F100s left.
All the E60's I had left were eventually used up Bottle-Rocket style.
Seem to recall 5 out of the 6 of those went off like an M80.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #57  
Old 12-21-2020, 01:56 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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That's because unlike the automated Mabel that produces the Estes BP engines, FSI used old less precise Gang rammer presses...... It's not just how much pressure is applied; it's the combination of how much you press and how long you press at that pressure, aka dwell time.....

The original Carlisle Rock-A-Chutes were made with Air-Hammers.......

With gang ram presses both of those variables were hard to obtain precisely from one engine to another.....

The first pic is a gang ram presser that Vern Estes used to press pyrotechnic items at his father's fireworks business...

The 2nd one is an example from the late 1800's to early 1900's.....notice that in 100 years the presses didn't change all that much.....

This was the ingenuity of Vern Estes......each engine on the rotating table gets the exact same pressure at the exact same dwell time......you then get very precise and identical performance from engine to engine.

Terry
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  #58  
Old 12-21-2020, 02:10 PM
Neal Miller Neal Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
The D20 was a lot more cato prone than the D18.
I have several D18s, F7s, and F100s left.
All the E60's I had left were eventually used up Bottle-Rocket style.
Seem to recall 5 out of the 6 of those went off like an M80.


Sounds about right. I bought two packs of E60's over the years. and I can say that my luck was
that 4 out of the 6 did not CATO. I had at least 3 Catos with the D20's and only 1 with the F 100's. as a comparison I can only recall about 6 total Catos with 100's of all other motors combined.
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  #59  
Old 07-13-2021, 09:52 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I never had any D18 catos, but had a couple with the D20.
Nowhere near as bad as the E60. Those things should have had a grenade logo stamped on them.
I can't believe NAR didn't de-cert them while in production.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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