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  #21  
Old 02-25-2017, 01:52 AM
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NASA is even looking at flying astronauts aboard the *first* SLS mission (see: http://spaceflightnow.com/2017/02/2...-super-booster/ ), or of shortening the three-year delay between the planned 2018 EM-1 and 2021 EM-2 missions, in a study requested by the administration. Both options would be expensive, so perhaps the administration is looking for a financial reason to cancel the SLS program. I hope so, for all of the reasons you gave in Reply #20. Regarding Wernher von Braun:

Since he began rocket research for the German Army in 1932, before Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933 (appointed by Paul von Hindenburg), and because World War II and the Holocaust didn't begin until some years later, Wernher von Braun "researched himself into a corner," so to speak. Had he suddenly resigned, he would have been jailed, executed, or pressed into military service and sent to one of the fronts (late in the war, he was arrested along with two other engineers and charged with being a communist sympathizer, after von Braun was overheard saying at a party that the war wasn't going well for Germany). Also:

He did try to secure better working conditions for the workers at the infamous Mittelwerk V-2 factory, where many of the forced laborers died either from the atrocious conditions or from abuse, or from both. The first time he tried, he was firmly rebuffed by the officer in charge, who told von Braun that he was meddling in an area that was none of his business, adding that if he persisted, *he* would be put to forced labor building V-2s. After brooding on that for a few days, von Braun tried a different tactic. He walked through the plant and noted which laborers were in the worst condition, and soon afterward he told the factory manager that those people were doing critical work and--arguing from factory efficiency and increased output standpoints--that they needed better rations, and that tactic worked. In addition:

Years after the final Apollo lunar mission, when the U.S. government began to prosecute German war criminals in the U.S. (some members of von Braun's Huntsville team were found guilty and deported [I don't recall if any of them were sent to prison, but this may have happened]), von Braun was summoned to appear before a hearing (in New Orleans, if memory serves) to determine if there was sufficient evidence to prosecute him as a war criminal. Survivors of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp who had worked at the Mittelwerk V-2 factory testified in von Braun's favor, confirming his account of having sought out laborers in bad condition and requesting better rations for them. As well:

This, plus his late joining of the Nazi Party (1937) and the SS (their horseback riding school in 1933--from which he quit the following year, re-joining the SS in 1940 after Himmler's people pressured him [when he asked his boss, Dr.--and later General--Walter Dornberger what to do, he told von Braun that for political reasons, he should join]), strike me as the actions of a sane man trying to stay alive in a country that had gone mad. It's easy for people--and I'm *not* suggesting that you are one of them--to say, "I would never have joined either organization," but if the consequences for ^not^ doing so were very unpleasant at best, and lethal at worst, what would a good person do if faced with that? Wernher von Braun's solution (which a lot of other Germans implemented as well) of *not* standing out--while also not doing any more for either organization than his survival called for--seems to be the best that any person with a conscience could have done, in those frightening circumstances.
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by blackshire
NASA is even looking at flying astronauts aboard the *first* SLS mission (see: http://spaceflightnow.com/2017/02/2...-super-booster/ ), or of shortening the three-year delay between the planned 2018 EM-1 and 2021 EM-2 missions, in a study requested by the administration. Both options would be expensive, so perhaps the administration is looking for a financial reason to cancel the SLS program. I hope so, for all of the reasons you gave in Reply #20.


I was kind of surprised to read that suggestion coming from the White House. I was rather mystified that they'd even consider such a thing... After reading some of the various speculations on places like the NSF forums, I think I figured it out (well, found a speculation that I agree with, which is probably a combination of things...)

The 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 Moon landing is approaching in 2019. SLS has already slipped to 2018. They'd be hard pressed, but it's theoretically possible, that an accelerated EM-1 could launch in a "Zond round the Moon" (course they'll call it "Apollo 8 round the Moon", but Apollo 8 did 10 orbits of the Moon in December of 1968... Orion is incapable of entering or leaving low lunar orbit (LLO) on it's own, without a full size space propulsion stage. EM-1 will use the Delta IV heavy upper stage (modified of course) but it's all it can do to get Orion through TLI.)

I think the thinking or motivation is, "lets do something to make America great again" by having the re-do of "Apollo 8" (more like Zond 5 as I mentioned) by sending the first flight of SLS/Orion around the Moon with a crew first time off the pad. (It all seems very "Khruschevian" to me-- "Ve must have space spectacular for the 40th Party Conference" (in thick Russian accent). Anyway, SLS has already slipped by a year to 2018 now for the first launch, and NASA is desperate to get SLS/Orion up before commercial crew to prove they're "essential" to manned space flight. SO to certain pro-SLS/anti-Commercial Crew management people at NASA HQ and the centers (MSFC/JSC primarily as the main HSF centers) this probably doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. Problem is, SLS will have never flown at that point and Orion has only flown once, unmanned, and that on a Delta IV Heavy. So it's an unnecessary risk for basically what amounts to a "space spectacular", which is IMHO a VERY poor reason to risk people's lives. Sure, we flew shuttle's first flight with a pair of guys on board (who have said since that if they knew then what they know now, they'd have had some strong second thoughts!) but all the previous spacecraft flew unmanned (sometimes multiple unmanned) test flights of the spacecraft and launch vehicles before committing crews to them.

IMHO it's an unnecessary risk... Sure, Orion and SLS should be an order of magnitude (at least) safer than shuttle, since it has an emergency escape rocket and crew capsule design that is more robust than a huge fragile aerodynamic orbiter with no meaningful escape provisions... BUT, IMHO that's not where the REAL risk lies... sending a crew looping around the Moon in an untested spacecraft with NO backup is IMHO too much of a risk... Sure Apollo 8 flew to the Moon on Apollo's second manned spacecraft-- BUT, Apollo had already flown multiple times in unmanned tests and the manned Apollo 7 in LEO, so it had already proven capable of sustaining a crew for that length of time and operating "as advertised". Orion certainly HAS NOT. Yes, Apollo 8 was bold, even brash, and a big risk, in that sending it around the Moon by itself meant there was NO BACKUP-- no LEM "lifeboat" like what saved the Apollo 13 crew (an Apollo 13 type accident would have CERTAINLY killed the crew on Apollo 8... they'd have had NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER). The thing was, there were a LOT of "GOOD" reasons for making the bold decision to send Apollo 8 around the Moon-- the LM was behind schedule, and wouldn't be ready for the "Apollo 9" type shakedown tests that were done on Apollo 9 in LEO, which was the purpose of Apollo 8 on the schedule anyway. Without the LM to test on orbit, Apollo 8 would have just been an expensive repeat of Apollo 7 in LEO by itself, only this time expending a Saturn V instead of the cheaper Saturn IB as Apollo 7 had. Most importantly, NASA and the US gubmint KNEW that the Soviets were working feverishly to send a spacecraft around the Moon, even if they had no realistic hopes of beating the Americans to a landing on the Moon, merely sending a crew looping around the Moon would give them the propaganda victory to say "we got men there first!" which would overshadow the later Apollo landing, and "steal their thunder". An unmanned Zond had already flown around the Moon and returned (though it had problems) and nobody knew whether cosmonauts would be inside the next one or dummies... and frankly nobody wanted to take the chance that cosmonauts would beat them there... after all there WAS some validity to the argument, at least in terms of propaganda and the perceptions of the world's population, that whoever "got there first", even if only looping around or orbiting the Moon rather than landing on it, could "claim the prize" in terms of perception. The US wasn't willing to take that chance, weighed their options and the risks, and decided to "go for it", even though it was a risky thing to do.

NO such motivations exist to justify a manned EM-1 IMHO. "Trying to save SLS politically" or "beating commercial crew" or producing some "space spectacular" to upstage the Russians and Chinese and prove "we've still got it" just isn't sufficient reason IMHO to justify the risks.

Plus, can you IMAGINE anything WORSE than if Orion got through TLI but ended up on the wrong trajectory or something?? Unlike Apollo, Orion is pretty much "committed" to whatever happens, because it simply doesn't have enough propulsion on its own to perform an abort and get back to Earth... I can correct its trajectory and stuff, but it cannot enter nor leave lunar orbit. It's TOTALLY dependent on a free-return trajectory to get back to Earth. If Orion suffered a propulsion or service module failure, would could very easily be seeing a couple astronauts (from what I've read they plan to send only 2) slowly suffocate or tumble off into space, hit the Moon, or helplessly sail by and miss returning to Earth entirely. It'd be a field day...


OL J R
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Regarding Wernher von Braun:

Since he began rocket research for the German Army in 1932, before Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933 (appointed by Paul von Hindenburg), and because World War II and the Holocaust didn't begin until some years later, Wernher von Braun "researched himself into a corner," so to speak. Had he suddenly resigned, he would have been jailed, executed, or pressed into military service and sent to one of the fronts (late in the war, he was arrested along with two other engineers and charged with being a communist sympathizer, (snip)

He did try to secure better working conditions for the workers at the infamous Mittelwerk V-2 factory (snip). The first time he tried, he was firmly rebuffed by the officer in charge, (snip) After brooding on that for a few days, von Braun tried a different tactic. He walked through the plant and noted which laborers were in the worst condition, and soon afterward he told the factory manager that those people were doing critical work and--arguing from factory efficiency and increased output standpoints--that they needed better rations, and that tactic worked. In addition:

Years after the final Apollo lunar mission, when the U.S. government began to prosecute German war criminals in the U.S. (some members of von Braun's Huntsville team were found guilty and deported [I don't recall if any of them were sent to prison, but this may have happened]), von Braun was summoned to appear before a hearing (in New Orleans, if memory serves) to determine if there was sufficient evidence to prosecute him as a war criminal. Survivors of the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp who had worked at the Mittelwerk V-2 factory testified in von Braun's favor, confirming his account of having sought out laborers in bad condition and requesting better rations for them. As well:

This, plus his late joining of the Nazi Party (1937) and the SS (their horseback riding school in 1933--from which he quit the following year, re-joining the SS in 1940 after Himmler's people pressured him [when he asked his boss, Dr.--and later General--Walter Dornberger what to do, he told von Braun that for political reasons, he should join]), strike me as the actions of a sane man trying to stay alive in a country that had gone mad. It's easy for people--and I'm *not* suggesting that you are one of them--to say, "I would never have joined either organization," but if the consequences for ^not^ doing so were very unpleasant at best, and lethal at worst, what would a good person do if faced with that? Wernher von Braun's solution (which a lot of other Germans implemented as well) of *not* standing out--while also not doing any more for either organization than his survival called for--seems to be the best that any person with a conscience could have done, in those frightening circumstances.


I agree... Personally I don't have anything against Von Braun, but over the years, and it seems more with each passing year, more hand-wringers come out of the woodwork and act like Von Braun (among others) was some sort of war criminal. Same thing with dropping the bomb on the Japanese, for that matter. In war, a LOT of bad things happen that "aren't right"-- that's the nature of war. While it's easy for these sort of people to sit back with the safety of 70 years of history between them and those events and condemn certain people for their actions, wagging and finger and saying how "morally superior" their own choices would have been, had they been in that day and time, it's FAR less likely their moralizing would have been transferred into the actions they speak of... In Von Braun's case, sometimes you make the best of a bad situation-- you're handed lemons, try to make lemonade. Sometimes you do what you have to to survive... You do the best you can for others along the way, realizing that sometimes fate hands out circumstances you can do little/nothing about. Most of these hand-wringing "moralizers" would have done the same if they were in his boots... Same thing with dropping the bomb-- if faced with having to go invade Japan and face near-certain death or mutilation in the largest invasion in history, or having their close family members face such a fate, or dropping a new "wonder weapon" that could end the war on the people who had STARTED the war (for the US) by attacking Pearl Harbor, and who had committed countless atrocities across the globe and killed tens of thousands of US servicemen already, some in the most heinous and inhumane manner, I think a lot of these idiots would have an entirely different perspective... and their arguments would fall on deaf ears to the people of the time, for the large part.

Later! OL J R
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  #24  
Old 03-08-2017, 04:25 AM
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I apologize for having suddenly disappeared after you posted those well thought-out replies, but I just got back home from an emergency week-long hospital stay yesterday (my left leg suddenly became very infected, swollen, "pustule-and-blister-ridden," and extremely painful, as if it was on fire!), and I've been catching up on my e-mail and YORF postings. Also:

While no one is perfect, Wernher von Braun just doesn't fit the "monster mold"--not even closely. The members of his ABMA (and later MSFC) team--those from Germany as well as the Americans (these included many Jews and Blacks [he annoyed Governor Wallace by seeking out Black engineers and technicians for the Saturn program])--were totally loyal and devoted to Wernher, and faking being the sort of person who would attract such affection, and for so many years, seems virtually impossible. As well:

He also met with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., so he was definitely interested in ameliorating racial problems. His work for Fairchild Industries' Space and Electronics Division on the ATS-6 educational satellite (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZaLvVLiP4U ), including his visit and encouragement to ISRO (the Indian Space Research Organisation) to develop their own launch vehicles and satellites (he told them to not worry about blowing up a few of them, for progress came from such failures), were the actions of an engaged, socially conscious person who was interested in improving the world. In addition:

"Vintage Space" host Amy Shira Teitel also opposes the proposed "Apollo 8 fiftieth anniversary repeat" (more like a circumlunar Zond, really) SLS mission, as she describes here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrEzIlecIk . This whole thing makes me think of the pyramids. The Great Pyramid of Giza (also called the Pyramid of Khufu or the Pyramid of Cheops) is like the Apollo 8 mission--it's the biggest and oldest pyramid. The others on the plateau are smaller and newer and less grand, sort of latter-year, lesser duplicates of the great original one, intended to recall the glory of past, greater times--like the SLS circumlunar flight...
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:14 PM
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Well, certainly hope you're on the mend there, Blackshire. Health issues are no fun at all...

Not a problem. Revisionist historians or those who practice finger-wagging from the safety of time and distance (like 95% of all the "we shouldn't have dropped the bomb on Japan" types IMHO) are just a pet peeve of mine... LOL

Like a concentration camp survivor said in a documentary I once watched said, "We're all capable of doing THE most inhuman things in order just to live another minute..." It's human nature and it's true.

Anyway, all the best to you and hope you're recovering well.

Later! OL J R

PS. Yes, I saw her talk about the proposed SLS "Zond 5" mission... I don't always agree with all her takes on everything, but she's interesting and easy on the eyes... LOL
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Old 03-13-2017, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Well, certainly hope you're on the mend there, Blackshire. Health issues are no fun at all...
Thank you. Hopefully--now that my lymphedema leg pump and new Juzo leg compression garments have finally arrived (months late)--it will never darken my life again! They weren't happy that I went home as soon as the intravenous antibiotics regimen was completed, but I HATE hospitals (I appreciate what their personnel do, of course). The noise, the unfamiliar surroundings, the uncomfortable bed and recliner (I can't sleep on a bed, and my recliner at home, like Baby Bear's porridge, is "just right" for me), the %^&$*@ gown that's open in back (I just went -skyclad- [nude, as the pagans call it] much of the time), the lack of privacy, and being checked on every two hours (which kept me from getting more than about 4 hours of deep, REM sleep all that week) made me hate every second of it; I was never so glad to see my humble, comfortable little apartment again!
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Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Not a problem. Revisionist historians or those who practice finger-wagging from the safety of time and distance (like 95% of all the "we shouldn't have dropped the bomb on Japan" types IMHO) are just a pet peeve of mine... LOL
*Nods* Even Japanese scholars concede that the hundreds of thousands of A-bomb casualties, while horrific, would have paled in scale compared with the *millions* that would have attended an allied invasion of the country. Talk host and historian Barry Farber was even told by a Japanese official he knew that the brilliant blue flashes of the atomic bomb detonations facilitated their surrender with honor. I forget the details, but there was an old legend or story in their lore that said that "further fighting was futile when they saw a blue flash in the sky," a divine sign that it made no sense to continue fighting (in some Armageddon-like future conflict mentioned in their lore, if memory serves). He told Mr. Farber that the news of the blue A-bomb flashes was a source of relief to many Japanese, because they could stop fighting the futile war without "losing face."
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Like a concentration camp survivor said in a documentary I once watched said, "We're all capable of doing THE most inhuman things in order just to live another minute..." It's human nature and it's true.
I, sadly, agree with what that concentration camp survivor said (like the humans in H. G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" who were willing to betray other humans to the Martians in exchange for being allowed to live [even just a little longer], there were Jews and other targeted minority individuals in the camps who even helped herd their fellow peoples into the death "showers" so that the Nazis would spare their lives, even only so little that they would just be the *last* ones to be killed).

I'd like to think that I would never do something like that (I'm sure we all do), but I'm sure that I wouldn't really care much if I lived afterwards, if I happened to survive: How incomparably worse than the "survivors' guilt" of military combat personnel, police officers, and firefighters (who just happen to survive deadly situations when their comrades don't, purely due to random chance) must it be to walk around knowing that one *helped* cut short others' lives, just to live a little longer oneself?
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Anyway, all the best to you and hope you're recovering well.

Later! OL J R

PS. Yes, I saw her talk about the proposed SLS "Zond 5" mission... I don't always agree with all her takes on everything, but she's interesting and easy on the eyes... LOL
Agreed, on both counts! I wouldn't at all mind being her faithful mount, and Pete would be a fine barn cat for keeping my straw bedding and hay free from mice... :-)
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:06 AM
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Isn't the shortest path to the moon via Falcon Heavy or Blue Origin New Glenn (Earth orbit)? They both already exist in some form. The follow on to New Glenn is New Armstrong (Earth escape).
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Old 03-16-2017, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Thank you. Hopefully--now that my lymphedema leg pump and new Juzo leg compression garments have finally arrived (months late)--it will never darken my life again!

Glad to hear you're doing better and on the mend. Dad went through most of the same stuff you're talking about, so I know how that goes (secondhand, having helped him).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
They weren't happy that I went home as soon as the intravenous antibiotics regimen was completed, but I HATE hospitals (I appreciate what their personnel do, of course). The noise, the unfamiliar surroundings, the uncomfortable bed and recliner (I can't sleep on a bed, and my recliner at home, like Baby Bear's porridge, is "just right" for me), the %^&$*@ gown that's open in back (I just went -skyclad- [nude, as the pagans call it] much of the time), the lack of privacy, and being checked on every two hours (which kept me from getting more than about 4 hours of deep, REM sleep all that week) made me hate every second of it; I was never so glad to see my humble, comfortable little apartment again!*Nods*


Yep... Dad hated the hospital too, for the exact same reasons you mentioned. He got IV antibiotics which fixed his lymphedema in his legs as well; he was on an IV antifungal as well as I think they said he had a fungal infection in his leg skin as well contributing to it. He was pleased as punch when they said he could go home. Even when he got SO sick last October and his BP was in the basement and they put him on BP stabilizers, but they were just keeping him barely above bare minimum BP, he was STILL ready to go home. When they asked him what he wanted to do-- either stay in the hospital for them to do everything possible (which they were pretty much at the end of what they could do), with or without a DNR, or go home with hospice care, the wanted to go home. He had a good evening that Saturday evening they brought him home, and Sunday (we had a lil church service at home for him since he couldn't get out of bed) and Monday he was pretty out of it, and Tuesday evening (October 25) he passed away).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Even Japanese scholars concede that the hundreds of thousands of A-bomb casualties, while horrific, would have paled in scale compared with the *millions* that would have attended an allied invasion of the country. (SNIP) there were Jews and other targeted minority individuals in the camps who even helped herd their fellow peoples into the death "showers" so that the Nazis would spare their lives, even only so little that they would just be the *last* ones to be killed).


Yes, that's what the Holocaust survivor was talking about-- he was one of the "workers" in the death camp, sorting people and taking them to the showers, and removing bodies afterwards-- when they started two of them would grab a body, one under the arms and one the legs, and the Germans stopped them-- they gave each one a stick to put under their chins to pull them to the trench to burn them. He told of a fire built with a bunch of wood and sticks and they were dumping bodies in there and burning them, and one of the guys the Germans had ordered to help throw in the bodies jumped in himself and immolated himself-- he simply refused to work at such a ghastly job.

And yeah, all the revisionist historians overlook the fact that any invasion of Japan would have been a SEVERE bloodbath for BOTH sides... The US would have continued its fire bombing campaign until there was NOTHING of consequence above ground that could possibly support the war effort; the Japanese knew this and had already moved large quantities of their war production underground, dug bunkers and barracks underground, networks of tunnels and attack points, even underground hangars for kamikazes... They had trained the public in last ditch fighting tactics against invading troops, and where no weapons were available, issued sharpened sticks as weapons... taught school kids to dive under tanks with bombs attached to themselves to blow up American tanks, the remaining Imperial Navy troops were volunteering for suicide missions as "living mines" and "living torpedoes", bobbing in the water to detonate their charges as US invasion fleet vessels and transports came close enough. The US would have been forced to kill MANY MILLIONS of Japanese civilians in an invasion, and would have lost, in all likelihood, probably around a million as well, and everybody "in the know" at the time KNEW IT.

Of course the invasion would have come AFTER months more firebombing that would have turned all of Japan into a "prairie dog town" and the US Navy blockade would have sealed off the islands for all intents and purposes, essentially starving Japan to death. In addition, even if "the bomb didn't work", while it wasn't exactly advertised at the time, the US planned to use chemical warfare as needed for "softening up" operations in advance of or in support of the invasion... this would have killed innumerable Japanese civilians as well. The use of "unconventional weapons", whether chemical or atomic, was a foregone conclusion. Had the Japanese been recalcitrant and refused surrender, there were more atomic bombs rolling off the assembly lines that could have been used-- Tokyo was going to be the target of the third A-bomb just to drive the point home to the leadership, in case they missed it in reading the reports. The rest were going to be held back (as many as 13 I've read in various places) to be used in a tactical role in preparation for invasion, to clear invasion routes, or wipe out defending forces or installations... So US troops would have been invading over "nuked ground" and with the lack of understanding of the effects and precautions necessary with radiation at the time, there WOULD have been a lot of irradiated US troops who, if they survived the war, would have gotten cancer (and other problems) after the war... in addition to the ecological radiological catastrophe it would have been for the Japanse as well (much like Fukushima has been). The Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombs were detonated high enough that fallout was minimal (mainly from the bomb casing and vaporized core itself) since they were detonated for airburst effects on soft targets (cities). A-bombs used in "tactical" attacks would have been detonated at ground level or much lower to maximize damage to particular targets, or specifically to irradiate large areas with heavy fallout as "area denial" tactics... thus creating ENORMOUS damage and lingering contamination from radioactive fallout that would last for generations...

To top it all off, Stalin was pushing full tilt against Japan and intended to "take his part" of Japan... it's entirely possible that had the war stretched out into 46 due to the necessity of an invasion and protracted battle to "root out" the Japanese and FORCE their surrender as was required in Germany, that the Soviets would have invaded northeastern Japan (which was MUCH more lightly defended; the Soviets were in the planning stages of an invasion from Sakhalin and Manchuria/Korea when the war ended).

In the end, the outcome would still have been the same, only probably another 5-10 million Japanese would have died (at least) and the US's WWII casualties would have been 3X what they actually were (at least); large swaths of Japan would be permanently irradiated and uninhabitable for centuries, and in all likelihood, Japan would have ended up being divided among the Americans and Soviets, with an "iron curtain" dividing a communist puppet North Japan and a US dominated "South Japan"... imagine having Japan in the role of North/South Korea, only with US and SOVIET troops facing off across a barb-wire "no man's land" for 50 years, instead of the US and North Koreans... and how much more dangerous that would have made the Cold War, with ANOTHER "Checkpoint Charlie" in Japan... and of course the stronger position the Soviets would have had in a communist "North Japan" would have precluded our intervening in the Korean War and given them a MUCH stronger hand in Vietnam and throughout Asia...

SO I'd say we actually did the Japanese quite a favor dropping the bomb on them... we saved them from a half-century of communism (if not more) and from having their homeland divided as happened to Germany... because let's face it-- Any Japanese soil Soviet troops occupied when the war DID finally end WOULD have ended up remaining in their control-- this was Stalin's aim, just as it was in Eastern Europe... (and China for quite some time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
I'd like to think that I would never do something like that (I'm sure we all do), (SNIP) Agreed, on both counts! I wouldn't at all mind being her faithful mount, and Pete would be a fine barn cat for keeping my straw bedding and hay free from mice... :-)


Yes, we'd all like to think so, but it's one of those things that we'd just never really know til we were in that position, in the 'acid test' so to speak, which we all should hope will never come...

LOL about the girl, horse, and cat stuff... She's a bit "unique" but kinda interesting...

Later! OL J R
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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!
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Old 03-16-2017, 12:45 AM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Isn't the shortest path to the moon via Falcon Heavy or Blue Origin New Glenn (Earth orbit)? They both already exist in some form. The follow on to New Glenn is New Armstrong (Earth escape).


If Elon can get Falcon Heavy flying reliably, and can get a suitable upper stage (kerolox would probably suffice, but hydrolox powered would be MUCH more efficient and powerful for the same physical size), and can develop reliable BEO deep space navigation capabilities, then yeah, I'd say DEFINITELY they're the shortest path to a lunar return... And, basically, these are ALL things that SpaceX is working on ALREADY.

Plus, there's nothing that says they *couldn't* technically buy an "off the shelf" Centaur or something for a hydrogen powered in-space propulsion stage... and Falcon Heavy is supposed to be in the 70 tonnes to LEO performance category, much like SLS block 1.

Later! OL J R
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