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  #171  
Old 12-13-2018, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_mills
...metal tape you can find at hardware stores, that is used to seal duct works....


I think they make different types, either Aluminum or Steel, and different thickness for different temperature ratings. They also have high-temp BBQ paints as an option.

The foil tape is also a cheap option for decorative metallic bands on rockets, compared to Monokote, etc.
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  #172  
Old 12-13-2018, 10:56 PM
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How about brushing a coat of epoxy onto the inner surfaces? That should at least act like an ablative coating. I typically use CA on cardboard motor tubes if they are standard tubes, figuring I might be lucky and actually have the rocket last long enough to worry about motor tube burnthru.
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  #173  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:40 PM
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Scott,

I am no longer using PLA filament for my 3D prints; instead I am using ABS which I find to be less brittle and much more heat and warp resistant. ABS, at least in my experience, is much easier to sand smooth than PLA and accepts paint and glues made for plastics well. The attached picture is is of some ABS parts that I recently printed. I am trying to clone an Estes Geo Sat LV. I got the files for these 3D plastic parts from Thingiverse: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:440953

The key to printing with ABS was to use the right extruder temperature, I had to do a lot of trial and error runs before I found the ABS plastic's optimal print temperature. Note that I do not have an enclosed printer as is generally reccomended for ABS filament. I also haven't had any issues with the ABS filaments picking up moisture. I am using both Hatchbox and Solutech brand ABS filaments and have got great 3D print results with both of them.

Have you tried 3D printing with ABS filament? I am interested in hearing your thoughts and experiences with filaments other than PLA.
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  #174  
Old 12-14-2018, 12:16 AM
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I personally have not yet used anything other than PLA, I'm not against ABS, just haven't had the need as of yet. If you want to print the satellite in one shot, I went and did that part also. I wanted it as a single part I wouldn't have to glue together. If you are interested it can be found on my nosecones page. Cone number 26

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2876174
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  #175  
Old 12-15-2018, 12:11 AM
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Ignore last comments I need to do some re engineering on that nose cone. Thanks Teflon for the heads up.
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  #176  
Old 12-22-2018, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
Scott,

I am no longer using PLA filament for my 3D prints; instead I am using ABS which I find to be less brittle and much more heat and warp resistant. ABS, at least in my experience, is much easier to sand smooth than PLA and accepts paint and glues made for plastics well. The attached picture is is of some ABS parts that I recently printed. I am trying to clone an Estes Geo Sat LV. I got the files for these 3D plastic parts from Thingiverse: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:440953

The key to printing with ABS was to use the right extruder temperature, I had to do a lot of trial and error runs before I found the ABS plastic's optimal print temperature. Note that I do not have an enclosed printer as is generally reccomended for ABS filament. I also haven't had any issues with the ABS filaments picking up moisture. I am using both Hatchbox and Solutech brand ABS filaments and have got great 3D print results with both of them.

Have you tried 3D printing with ABS filament? I am interested in hearing your thoughts and experiences with filaments other than PLA.
Bruce, I have a few questions concerning gluing, prepping, and painting 3D printed ABS plastic parts, which I have included below. (I have arranged them in such a format that they could be reproduced--as an informational "Sticky" here on YORF, if Scott so desires--in a simple 'question-and-answer' FAQ form, following any editing that he sees fit to conduct). They are as follows:

Which type or types of plastic model cement would you recommend for gluing ABS plastic parts--including 3D printed ones--in the following situations:

[1] ABS-to-ABS?

[2] ABS-to-polystyrene?

[3] ABS-to-paper (as in gluing a 3D printed ABS fin unit--or fin can--into, or onto, a Kraft paper body tube)? Also:

I have read (in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry," if memory serves) that the MEK--Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone--type liquid plastic cement (such as Testors's), and also the "tube-type" (Toluene-containing) plastic cement (such as Testors's, Pactra's, etc.), work well for plastic-to-plastic joints involving ABS and/or polystyrene parts, and that:

The "tube-type" (Toluene-containing) plastic model cement produces strong ABS-to-paper (and polystyrene-to-paper) joints, especially if [1] the paper bonding surface is lightly sanded, and [2] the plastic part's bonding surface is sanded with coarse sandpaper (or sanding film)--and/or is scored with a knife or a single-edged razor blade--before the "tube-type" cement is applied. It was recommended--for plastic-to-paper joints--that the cement be applied ^only^ to the plastic part's bonding surface (unless the to-be-glued plastic surface will be *inside* the paper part, such as a body tube), which is allowed so soften a bit before the two parts are pressed together, so that the plastic cement/plastic part "bridge" will soak into the paper somewhat, to bind them together. As well:

I realize that epoxy, polyurethane, cyanoacrylate, and contact cements (and even "model airplane glue" [balsa cement, which will even bond some plastics surprisingly well]) are also available. But more readily available, safer (if used with ample ventilation) hobby glues that will work with ABS, polystyrene, and paper particularly interest me (with white glue [PVA white glue doesn't age like Elmer's: www.thesawguy.com/what-is-pva-glue/ ] and yellow wood glue being, of course, great for paper and wood bonds), because kids can use them safely--with appropriate instruction, of course--and because some of the more specialty-type cements cause chest tightness and shortness of breath when I use them. Plus, regarding painting 3D printed ABS plastic parts:

[A] What sandpaper (and/or sanding film) grade(s) and method(s) would you recommend for 3D printed ABS plastic parts? (In my experience--but with polystyrene, not ABS--one uses extra-fine grade, or fine grade [or medium grade, followed by fine or extra-fine grade, if a kit's injection-molded or vacu-formed polystyrene parts are of mediocre surface quality], then washes off the 'plastic dust' with soap & water, or perhaps with rubbing alcohol, then lets the parts dry before proceeding with primer-ing [if necessary, depending on the parts' molded-in color or colors] and/or painting.) This leads to:

[B] Which--*IF* one method ^always^ produces qualitatively better results than the other (not just faster or easier results)--painting method is better for 3D printed ABS parts, brush painting, or spray painting (using spray cans or an airbrush)? Spray painting, using either method (spray cans or an airbrush), is definitely faster than brush painting, but brush painting can be done safely indoors without ventilation, such as on winter days (if water-based acrylic paint is used). Brush painting is also not uncommonly easier, when small--and especially, very tiny--detail parts must be painted different colors than the surrounding parts or areas; doing this via masking and spray painting would be much harder, and:

According to multiple books (including G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry"), acrylic paints (such as those made by Floquil, Tamiya, Testors, etc.) are water-based, can be thinned with water, don't smell, dry to a hard finish, don't yellow with age, and don't leave brush marks if applied with a brush. They can be applied using either a brush or an airbrush (which can be powered by aerosol-type pressurized propellant cans, a larger carbon dioxide cylinder [used with a pressure regulator], a garage- or hobby-type air compressor, or--with some airbrush models--even a tank-type vacuum cleaner [with the airbrush being connected to the airflow-output end]), and:

Because acrylic paint is water-based and can be thinned with water, (hand) brushes and airbrushes that are used to apply it to models are easy to clean. This makes changing paint colors when necessary, and cleaning up the brushes before putting them away, much simpler tasks. These listed advantages lead to the following two acrylic paint-related questions:

[C] Do the aforementioned advantages of acrylic paints--applied via brush and/or airbrush--also apply to 3D printed plastic parts?

[D] If so, do clear acrylic paints go over cured colored acrylic paints (and/or over applied-and-dried water-transfer and/or "crack-and-peel" decals), without "fogging" and/or yellowing such paints and/or decals? Also, regarding paints:

[E] Do enamel, lacquer, polyurethane, and/or epoxy paint(s) go over 3D printed ABS plastic parts well, and if so, do their clear variants go over the colored (dried-and-cured) ones? In addition:

It has been "a few paint chemistry generations" since I last used enamel or lacquer paints in spray cans (judging by the discussions about the newer formulations that I've read here on YORF, the new stuff doesn't sound like it's better than the old, thanks to the EPA...), but I recall a few general tips that may still apply:

Enamel can be sprayed over dried-and-cured lacquer, but doing the opposite--even if the enamel "undercoat" is dry--will result in a crazed, crinkle finish. All plastic parts (except cast polyurethane and epoxy ones, which require lacquer paints [and polyurethane, epoxy, or contact cements for bonding purposes]) must *only* be painted with enamel paints (acrylic paints will also work on non-polyurethane, non-epoxy plastics, I *think* [at the very worst--if I'm wrong--the acrylic paint just won't stick to ABS or polystyrene plastic]), BUT:

Lacquer spray paint ^can^ be used on polystyrene--and possibly also ABS--plastic parts, *if* the first coat of lacquer is just a light "dusting," and is allowed to dry thoroughly before more spray paint--either lacquer or (preferably) enamel--is applied. The initial, 'dusted-on' lacquer coat softens and "bites into" the very uppermost surface of the plastic, which causes the next coat of paint to cling tenaciously to the lacquer undercoat. While the subsequent coats of paint ^can^ be lacquer, they must to applied in many, very light coats--which must all be allowed to dry thoroughly before the next coat is sprayed on--in order to avoid melting the plastic, and this takes a long time. Unless one is building a museum, international-level scale competition, or movie miniature model, it's just as well--not to mention quicker--to use enamel coats applied over the initial lacquer undercoat.

I hope this information will be helpful, and many thanks in advance for your help!
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  #177  
Old 12-22-2018, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_mills
Ignore last comments I need to do some re engineering on that nose cone. Thanks Teflon for the heads up.


Scott,

Do you have a file for the Estes PNC- 72689 nosecone? It was part of model rockets like the Estes Voyage II see: http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/estes/est2000j.jpg

Bruce
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  #178  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:00 PM
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Looks like that one is still available in the Sci-Fi assorted pack:
https://www.estesrockets.com/rocket...assortment-5-pk


and used on the current Odyssey:
https://www.estesrockets.com/rocket...07235-odysseytm

and by the Xarconians for their Cruiser & Destroyer
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  #179  
Old 12-22-2018, 09:53 PM
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For Gluing ABS to ABS I have been using Testors Plastic Cement containing MEK. I use it to glue 3D printed ABS parts together, I let them set up or dry overnight. I did this for my Estes MX missile clone and later accidently droped it on the floor; the glue joints held up nicely but the thin ABS fins on the fin can didn't.

For gluing these 3D printed ABS parts to paper tubes I use tube type plastic cement and rough up the plastic up with coarse sandpaper. ABS is very similar to polystyrene and the techniques I use for gluing and finishing them are virtually the same. ABS is short for Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene it is a copolymer of styrene, acrylonitrile and polybutadiene. Typically around 50% styrene 30% acrylonitrile, and 20% butadiene, these amounts can vary depending on the characteristics of the plastic. Expxy and CA glues also work on 3D printed ABS. I should mention that I am a professional chemsit by training.

[A] For 3D printed ABS I sand down the corduroy finish with 220 grit sand paper followed by 400 grit and then apply Rust-Oleum Light Gray Automotive primer (#2081). If I am using the bare plastic as the exterior of a model I sand with 600 grit then 1200 grit and do a final polish with automotive scratch remover or whintening toothpaste on a clean cotton cloth. I then sometimes coat the plastic part with Krylon Crystal Clear Acryic spray paint (#89116).

[B] I have a huge indoor ventilated pinting booth and I only spray paint my models. I apply a heavy coat (slightly runny to almost dripping) of gray automotive primer over 3D printed ABS parts, polystyrene parts, bare deep grained balsa and basswood as well as over Estes textured paper body tubes with deep spiral grooves. I don't use sanding sealer anymore since the automotive primer works so well. I let this coat dry for over 48 hours then sand it back with 220 grit followed by 400 grit until the original surfaces just start to appear or show through. If you try to sand the primer coat in less than 48 hours the sandpaper will clog and you will not get good results. Next I recoat the entire models surface with Rust-Oleum American Accents Flat white primer (#327914). If I need to preserve fine details in the 3D printed or other plastic parts, wood carvings or paper embossings, I wil forgo the heay coat of gray automotive primer and use only a thin coat of the white primer. I wait 48 hours and then sand this coat with 400 grit paper. If there is a gray colored primer coat below this white primer it is eay to tell when you are sanding too far down into the previous base coat. I have had issues of CA glues causing both enamels and laquers to craze and wrinkle over the areas where they were applied even through a thick coats of primers!

[C] I only use brush paint for fine detail work and touch ups. The ring on the upper part of my Red Nova nosecone see http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/show...645&postcount=7 was hand pinted using a very fine nylon brush and Testors enamel paint. I sometimes use acrylic paints over the white primer mentioned above. I did this on the nosecone for my FlisKits Nantucket Sound (see attached) but I couldn't get as smooth of a surface as I do with enamels and lacquers. An overcoat of Krylon Crystal Clear Acrylic helps hide the brush strokes and other blemishes in the acrylic paint. My friend Andrew swears by Testors Acrylic paints and uses them on the exterior of his models. He gets a nice smooth finish; he is also a professional painter by trade, but he tells me its the paint not the painter!

[D] The Krylon crystal clear works great over acrylic paint, enamels, lacquers, home made inkjet decals and 3D printed ABS, but it is not compatible with some markers and silk screened decals; it causes the makers to run and the silk screen decals to warp and move. I use Future Floor Wax (FFW, now Pledge with Future Shine) over silk screened decal sets, enamel, acrylic, laquer paints and 3D printed ABS plastic. I apply full strength with a foam brush over an entire model. I have also used FFW in an air brush to spray it over small areas less than 2 inches square; you can thin it with water if desired. This clear finish can be removed with ammonia water and is compatible with all the above except water colors and washable markers.

[E] ABS is mostly styrene and I have yet to see anything different from the behavior of styrene itself; if it works on styrene it will also work on ABS. Most of the plastic nosecones Estes makes are thin polystyrene. That said there are still the general rules of painting like never put a laquer over an enamel finish or you will get alligatoring and crazing. Laquers dry smooth in about 15 minutes , enamels take at least overnight to dry to touch. Laquers are sensitive to moisture and humidity and never should be applied in over 70% humidity unless you are going for the fish-eye surface look in your top coat. I aways wait 48 hours or more before applying another coat over any paint; this was a hard learned lession. I always let the clear acrylic coat cure for at least 48 hours over my home made decals before I attempt to use them. I find the under coat of the flat white (and/or gray) primer which likes to go on the surface as a nice thin film helps to preserve the plastic parts and keep them from crazing even after application of a laquer.

I have also found the new Krylon white primer (#3455) is unsuitable for use as a primer under anything, I am not sure why Krylon even relaesed this new formulation; everything I have apllied over it wrinkles and crazes. Krylon laquers used to be my prefered spray paint, but with the formulation changes I now almost soley use Rust-Oleum enamels.
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Last edited by teflonrocketry1 : 12-22-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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  #180  
Old 12-22-2018, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenP
Looks like that one is still available in the Sci-Fi assorted pack:
https://www.estesrockets.com/rocket...assortment-5-pk


and used on the current Odyssey:
https://www.estesrockets.com/rocket...07235-odysseytm

and by the Xarconians for their Cruiser & Destroyer


Glen,

Thanks! I think I have that Sci-Fi NC assorment pack around here somewhere!
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