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  #1  
Old 08-25-2018, 09:55 PM
csaduck csaduck is offline
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Angry Estes C engine failure

Was at our clubs launch site today, and was using Estes C6-7 engine in a brand new "ready to fly" rocket, the engine blew up on the pad ! All of the wadding, streamer and fire blew out both ends, burning a hole in the body and starting the grass on fire. Needless to say, this was a bad start for my day. Anyone one else have C engines blow up ?
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2018, 10:15 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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That's a real rarity outside of the bad batch of C5-3's two decades ago.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:27 AM
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Royatl Royatl is offline
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We call that a 'cato' (short for a catastropic failure, though it is only one mode of it). The larger a black powder motor is, the more likely this can happen, but it is still unlikely. If a motor fails, it should do so by spitting the nozzle, though often it does something else , like spitting the propellant out the front, or even splitting the casing.

Do you still have the casing? You should note the date code on it, and go to http://motorcato.org/MESSForm.aspx to report it. Also send the information to Estes Customer Service at 1295 H Street, Penrose, CO 81240. They'll try to use the information to understand what happened, and they will probably send you a replacement pack of motors (and a kit if yours was damaged).

smaller motors rarely cato. It is usually seen in D and above motors. But it does happen from time to time.

Most of the time they are caused by poor storage. Left in a hot car, or stored in a hot attic, then fired when cool or cold. Or left in high humidity that could weaken the clay nozzle or the casing. Sometime there are manufacturing defects, but those are generally less common.
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Old 08-26-2018, 06:56 AM
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mycrofte mycrofte is offline
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Most of my small motor failures have been from storing them in the garage. The temperature changes cause the propellant to separate from the casing wall. I keep them all in the bedroom closet now.
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  #5  
Old 08-26-2018, 11:56 AM
astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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C6 motors seldom cato. Sorry that you drew the short straw on this one.

WAY more important than filling out the MESS report - contact Estes customer service and they will send you replacement model rocket and motor.

719-372-6565, extension 216

or by email webcs at estesrockets.com
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  #6  
Old 08-26-2018, 05:41 PM
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bernomatic bernomatic is offline
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Sorry to hear about your loss.
The issue with the MESS reports is you can't get any information from the agency collecting them that I could find. They hold all their cards close to the vest.

At the Sagitta Cantina, we have a section where individuals post information on their CATOS's (or other issues) and anybody can read the information.

Why don't you stop by and give us a hand? Cantina S.A.M.E. report forum

Any information you can give is appreciated, especially if you have the batch no. of the engine. (Batch numbers of any package of engines are the same, that I have found)
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Is Trump doing a good job? Feel free to let us know your opinion at Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.
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  #7  
Old 08-26-2018, 06:25 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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+1 to what Bernard said about MESS reports. I wouldn't even do one but would contact Estes to get a replacement kit and motors.
Until NAR publishes the data from MESS reports, they will never get one from me.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and NEVER touch the brake !!!
No Harm=NO Foul advocate

If you are NOT FLYING LOW in the left lane, you need to GET THE #$&@ OUT of it !

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask, you probably aren't
!
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  #8  
Old 08-27-2018, 01:04 PM
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Royatl Royatl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
Sorry to hear about your loss.
The issue with the MESS reports is you can't get any information from the agency collecting them that I could find. They hold all their cards close to the vest.

At the Sagitta Cantina, we have a section where individuals post information on their CATOS's (or other issues) and anybody can read the information.

Why don't you stop by and give us a hand? Cantina S.A.M.E. report forum

Any information you can give is appreciated, especially if you have the batch no. of the engine. (Batch numbers of any package of engines are the same, that I have found)



The point is that showing MESS results would be heavily weighted against the most popular motors which is an unfair representation. Of course there will be many more Estes motors reported than anyone elses. If Estes, who makes a few million motors per year, has 1000 failures, it is not as bad as when company x makes 100,000 motors and has only 500 failures.

the MESS reports do go to the people who have some historical and statistical context, and they will be sure the right people at the companies involved know what's happening if they see something out of the ordinary.

So MESS is the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO. Do not discourage the filing of MESS reports. A very close second is indeed contacting the manufacturer directly.
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2018, 12:42 AM
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bernomatic bernomatic is offline
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I do not discourage making a MESS report, I only ask that individuals share what happened to them with us at the Cantina, including the engine type and/or batch number. We don't claim to any statistical sampling nor give a failure rate. The "A" in the acronym is for "Anecdotal"

adjective
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

This is the best that we can do because as stated before the numbers from the MESS reports are closely held. That is the option of the organization receiving the reports. I understand the reasoning, but this again does not help any individual rocketeer make an informed descision, or for that matter any type of decision whatsoever.

So let me state this as clearly and straightforward as I can.

If anyone has an issue with any type of mis-performance of any model rocket engine or motor, by all means please fill out a MESS form first. Help the manufacturers keep their product the reliable and safe item that in the vast majority of cases they are.

Than contact the manufacturer to receive any relief you can get from that avenue.

I only ask that you would also then visit the http://forum.starportsagitta.net/vi...d88fde541d096a6 and give us a little information also, to help your fellow enthusiasts.

Having the information that the MESS reports people have would probably put the numbers in a better perspective. As mentioned in Royatl's example, a one in one thousand failure rate is indeed much better than a five in one thousand failure rate. Stating the numbers in that manner would be more helpful to all instead of just gross numbers.

However, withholding information from the consumer seems a little bit bureaucratic and acting like you have something to hide. Do you think safety statistics for automobiles should be held close to the vest by the NHTSA and the auto industry?
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Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

Is Trump doing a good job? Feel free to let us know your opinion at Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2018, 01:03 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Until the MESS reports are transparent, I refuse to participate.
We are smart enough to deduce percentages of failure.
The whole setup seems fishy.
Share the data publicly; anything short of that is pure crapola just like the EXCUSES of not producing B14's.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and NEVER touch the brake !!!
No Harm=NO Foul advocate

If you are NOT FLYING LOW in the left lane, you need to GET THE #$&@ OUT of it !

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask, you probably aren't
!
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