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  #131  
Old 12-23-2016, 04:28 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Tell your 5000 closest friends Jerry Irvine sent you. That's important.
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  #132  
Old 12-23-2016, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
BTW want another exempt "starter"?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Tech Jerry


Hmm . . . No "Blue & White" wires . . . MJG claims to have an "agreement" with BATFE . . . I see nothing from BILUSOCN about being exempt . . . Does BILUSOCN have a website ?

Dave
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  #133  
Old 12-23-2016, 04:41 PM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
Hmm . . . No "Blue & White" wires . . . MJG claims to have an "agreement" with BATFE . . . I see nothing from BILUSOCN about being exempt . . . Does BILUSOCN have a website ?

Dave
The one on Amazon is a larger version of the Estes clear starters. By being larger it works better.

Can we ever have a tech discussion? If rocketeers (users, manufacturers, associations, dealers) do not want igniters and propellants to be exempt, ATF and DOT and FAA sure as HE double toothpicks do not!!

MJG is "pyrotechnic".
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  #134  
Old 12-24-2016, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
No. Original e-matches have a tiny amount of high explosive in them to reduce the action time.

Glad you added to the original answer.
I've never used an e-match. I assumed they have always been pretty much the same as far as the design, but had no idea what compounds were used to enhance them.
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  #135  
Old 12-25-2016, 12:10 AM
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Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First...06_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_...06_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.
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  #136  
Old 12-25-2016, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First...06_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_...06_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.


My understanding is Quest changed the Q2G2 formula as well and they are not as good as the original version. Unfortunately....
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  #137  
Old 12-25-2016, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Estes offers their pyrogen-free "starters," but I see that Quest Aerospace is back in operation, and that they offer "First Fire Mini Initiators" (AeroTech-made Tiger Tail/Copperhead-type igniters, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/First...06_3443224.aspx ) as well as their Q2G2 igniters (in both 3.5" and 8" lengths, see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Q2G2_...06_3443223.aspx ), and both have, I think, pyrogen-coated tips. Unless they're running an outlaw organization, they must have permission to make and sell real, bona fide igniters, which also work with Estes motors.


The Quest website has been redesigned.
If you try to add the Q2G2 igniters to the shopping cart a pop-up reads:
"Unable to add to cart. Product unavailable."
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  #138  
Old 12-25-2016, 12:13 PM
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Figures.
I lost all confidence in brand Q when they announced with much fanfare the SU BP 29mm Thunderjet Motors. They apparently had many produced then had people test-fly them at various launches.
They then proceeded to FAIL to bring them to the market.
Thankfully brand E no longer announces products that have any chance of NOT making it to market.
ALWAYS UNDER announce/promise and OVER deliver.
Doing the opposite of that EVER has nothing but long and short term negative business impact ALWAYS.
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  #139  
Old 12-26-2016, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcmbanjo
The Quest website has been redesigned.
If you try to add the Q2G2 igniters to the shopping cart a pop-up reads:
"Unable to add to cart. Product unavailable."
*SIGH* Well, that (along with Les' mention of the Q2G2 pyrogen formula change) is useful if not encouraging information; thank you both for posting it. Hopefully, the Copperhead-type "First Fire Mini Initiators" are available (I personally never had any ignition problems with the Copperhead-type Tiger Tail and Tiger Tail II igniters--they just required somewhat different installation and micro-clip hookup techniques). Also:

I agree with GH about Quest's proclivity to market vaporware which never manifested as tangible, available products. But now that they are a part of AeroTech, perhaps this will change; I've always liked their products, and I'd like to see their product lines grow. In addition:

One relatively easy thing they could do would be to re-issue the 15 mm diameter MPC/AVI Miniroc kits (they use the T15 tubing in some of their current kits, as faux strap-on boosters), which could use Estes 13 mm mini motors. (Before AeroTech bought them, Quest started that "new tradition" with their higher-powered kits, for which they recommended other companies' large motors that they themselves didn't make.) That slight diameter difference between T15 and BT-5 enabled the 15 mm (0.591") rockets to comfortably accommodate a 10" parachute (or a streamer, of course [especially for two-stage models]). The Minirocs also used a BT-5 size "sleeve tube" motor mount tube, which not only strengthened the fin assembly area (preventing body tube buckling when inserting/removing the friction-fit motors), but also enabled the motors to be retained using just an external wrap of masking tape (by leaving 3/16" - 1/4" of the sleeve tube protruding from the body tube, so that the tape could be wrapped around the protruding sleeve tube and the rear end of the motor).
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  #140  
Old 12-26-2016, 09:45 AM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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In the NARCON video of the manufacturer's forum Gary stated directly with price increases coming from China it is likely the BP motors next ordered will be the last and the Q2G2 igniters can only be ordered at the same time as motors. So hoard Q2G2 when the next batch arrives.

If Estes were to do a NA0323 (UN0432) motor pack with real old style solar igniters and include abundant spares in every package, it might be a North America only product but we are the biggest market anyway. Maybe a customised bulk pack would be the easiest for them.

Besides no non-USA country tries to regulate igniters abnormally. It was the elimination of 55.141 (a) (7) that started this ball rolling but it still exempts specific UN numbers.

NARCON folks reported a 50% ignition failure rate for "starters".

Quote:
27 CFR 555.141 (a) EXEMPTIONS:

(7) The importation, distribution, and storage of fireworks classified as UN0336, UN0337, UN0431, or UN0432 explosives by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 49 CFR 172.101 and generally known as “consumer fireworks” or “articles pyrotechnic.”

(8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes.
Note that igniters are, in fact, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes. Note also pyrotechnic igniters are "articles, pyrotechnic".

A traditional electric match has a tiny amount of high explosive covered by a propellant (inhibitor). All model rocket and high power rocket igniters have no high explosive at all. Only propellant as the pyrogen.

Some have a bridge wire and some use a semi-conductor in the dip to eliminate the need for micro-welding or winding.

Time to grow balls.

Jerry

Quote:
Cites:

UN 0336 1.4G http://www.health-safety-signs.uk.c...d=203&un=UN0336

UN 0337 1.4S http://www.hazmattool.com/info.php?...b=UN0337&c=1.4S

UN 0431 1.4G http://www.health-safety-signs.uk.c...d=295&un=UN0431

UN 0432 1.4S http://www.hazmattool.com/info.php?...b=UN0432&c=1.4S

"ATFE’s own burn rate threshold for deflagration
is 1000 millimeters (or one meter) per second."
Tripoli Rocketry Ass’n, 437 F.3d at 81-82

"ORDERED that the defendant's [BATFE] decision to
classify APCP as an explosive under
18 U.S.C. § 841(d) is VACATED."


FINAL FEDERAL COURT ORDER 16 March 2009

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 12-27-2016 at 09:51 AM.
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