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  #1  
Old 02-21-2019, 12:30 PM
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Default Rp-1

RP-1, as we all know is a highly refined kerosene. It is limited in sulfur, alkenes and aeromatics along with light hydrocarbons that evaporate easily. This gives it a high flash point, but it also likely affects another area. This leads to my big question. Without all those things that make hydrocarbon fuels smell good, what does the stuff smell like?
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:59 PM
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It smells almost exactly like kerosene/ mineral spirits.
It does not reek like JP4/JetA.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
RP-1, as we all know is a highly refined kerosene. It is limited in sulfur, alkenes and aeromatics along with light hydrocarbons that evaporate easily. This gives it a high flash point, but it also likely affects another area. This leads to my big question. Without all those things that make hydrocarbon fuels smell good, what does the stuff smell like?
I have never smelled un-burned RP-1, but after the ASTP Apollo-Saturn IB launch (the very last Apollo-Saturn to fly, in July 1975, which we watched in person), the scent of the exhaust smelled like burnt kerosene, but "lighter" and "cleaner" than home heating oil and #2 (heavy) diesel. (I may have the diesel numbers backward; our Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel ran on the lighter--the more highly refined--of the two commonly-available grades of diesel.) Also:

The closest everyday fuel to it--in terms of exhaust scent--is the kerosene that we used in our indoor (with no exhaust piping to the outside), two-burner Florence kerosene stove in Miami. My father bought it at a local, small-chain filling station, where we refilled our "goose-neck" kerosene can from a small, cubical, hand-pump-equipped above-ground kerosene storage tank. We could readily see the fuel, which was almost clear, with a slight straw-colored tinge. He also once accidentally fueled one of our (gasoline, obviously) push lawnmowers (from a smaller can into which he'd poured some kerosene for cleaning purposes some time before; he thought it contained gasoline, and didn't notice the different smell because of sinus congestion). But the lawnmower, to our amazement (when he realized his mistake afterward--either my mother or I noticed the different exhaust smell), ran just fine on the kerosene, so it must have been a pretty highly-refined grade of kerosene, closer to RP-1 than to #2 diesel or home heating oil.
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Old 02-22-2019, 04:50 AM
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#2 diesel is for cars and trucks. Bunker diesel is heavier and for trains and ships. I was actually excited to see a tech post by GH!
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
#2 diesel is for cars and trucks. Bunker diesel is heavier and for trains and ships. I was actually excited to see a tech post by GH!

You can bait him to post with questions about chemicals.

Thanks GH and Jason.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
You can bait him to post with questions about chemicals.

But mixed with questions about odors we are at risk of provoking a scatological response.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
You can bait him to post with questions about chemicals.

Thanks GH and Jason.
You're welcome. I also thank Jerry for confirming what I'd thought regarding #2 diesel (I think the two grades are also called DF-1 and DF-2 today, because my Jane's UAVs & drones book mentions new Wankel-type American UAV engines that can run on aviation gasolines as well as "DF-1 and DF-2 road diesel fuels"; the Army and Marines required this so that their UAVs can run on locally-available road vehicle fuels in overseas captured territory, if need be). And speaking of RP-1:

RP-1 looks like cherry Kool-Aid (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP-1 )! My guess is that it is dyed that color, like aviation gasolines. That same article also says that an even lower-sulfur fuel, RP-2, was developed (it gives the impression that some RP-2 was refined), but that it never caught on in the aerospace industry because RP-1 was considered good enough, and:

It also mentions--which I'd previously read elsewhere, some time ago--that the Soviets/Russians had used Syntin (I'd seen it spelled as "Sintin" before), a cyclopropane with propyl and methyl groups bonded to available molecular bonding points (just like how UDMH has two methyl groups bonded to one end of the hydrazine molecule, instead of hydrogen atoms). They're also planning to--if they haven't done it already--switch from using RG-1 kerosene (their "RP-1 equivalent," apparently) to using "naftil" (also transliterated as "naphthyl"--it sounds like a naptha-containing fuel) in the Soyuz-2 launch vehicle. (Maybe its exhaust will smell like mothballs--or at least burned mothballs? :-) )
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  #8  
Old 02-22-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
You're welcome. I also thank Jerry for confirming what I'd thought regarding #2 diesel (I think the two grades are also called DF-1 and DF-2 today, because my Jane's UAVs & drones book mentions new Wankel-type American UAV engines that can run on aviation gasolines as well as "DF-1 and DF-2 road diesel fuels"; the Army and Marines required this so that their UAVs can run on locally-available road vehicle fuels in overseas captured territory, if need be). And speaking of RP-1:
I am a strong believer of Wankel and Renkin rotary engines for aircraft and automobiles.

My Mazda RX-3SP (one year before RX-7) had a 1288cc 2 roter Wankel. It produced 90 hp normally aspirated and was so light, and had such a wide power band, I regularly wiped big block Barracudas and all nature of Corvettes and Porche's. I think a 45hp 600cc rotary for most existing sedans, SUV's and minitrucks would be just fine and would have substantial towing capacity despite the diminutive displacement. Much better mileage than the prior Mazda product. The faster you go the better mileage you get!

What is the displacement on the UAV engines?

Jerry

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_i...000-0.jpg?rev=2

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_i...000-0.jpg?rev=2
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  #9  
Old 02-22-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I am a strong believer of Wankel and Renkin rotary engines for aircraft and automobiles.

My Mazda RX-3SP (one year before RX-7) had a 1288cc 2 roter Wankel. It produced 90 hp normally aspirated and was so light, and had such a wide power band, I regularly wiped big block Barracudas and all nature of Corvettes and Porche's. I think a 45hp 600cc rotary for most existing sedans, SUV's and minitrucks would be just fine and would have substantial towing capacity despite the diminutive displacement. Much better mileage than the prior Mazda product. The faster you go the better mileage you get!

What is the displacement on the UAV engines?

Jerry

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_i...000-0.jpg?rev=2

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_i...000-0.jpg?rev=2
Thank you for the links (I'm not a car person, but those *look* distinctive, unlike the "look-alike 'Euro-bubbles' with interchangeable name plates" that most cars seem to be today). The newer Wankels--for cars and aircraft, including UAVs--have much-improved rotor tip seals, which last much longer and facilitate greater engine efficiency. (I'd love to see model airplane and model car Wankel engines; I'd bet they could spin a ducted fan fast, for jet models! They too could probably run on most any fuel, including RP-1, if one could get any--maybe the RP-1 producer(s) would sell small bottles or cans of it?) Also:

I have no idea what those UAV Wankel's displacements are (all I know is that they're about the size of lawnmower engines, but flatter from front to back). My Jane's UAVs & drones book is packed away pretty "deeply," such that getting to it, and then getting it out, could take hours. :-(
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  #10  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:21 AM
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Having smelled many of the pure compounds that make up RP-1, and being an organic chemist that can identify many compounds by their just their odor (ask Wolf he was in my graduate lab that housed thousands of organic compounds), RP-1 should have a parrafinic (waxy) to a slightly ethereal odor much like that of pure lamp oil or other highly purified kerosene.
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