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  #1  
Old 05-02-2016, 07:24 PM
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Randy Randy is offline
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Default Estes "New" igniters

I seem to remember hearing a while back that Estes had tweaked the pyrogen on their igniters but until last week I had not seen them in use and I have to say I was greatly disappointed.

For the last 9 years our club has helped a local middle school launch approx. 300 rockets over the course of a school day and this year they were using the new igniters. I don't have exact figures but I can give a close estimate of a 15%+ failure rate. That's way too many from a product that has always been very reliable.

Once we figured out why we were having so many misfires the teacher went into her stash of left over igniters from years past and they performed flawlessly. So much for the new igniters.

I have no idea why Estes has "attempted" and failed to improve one of their best products but I would imagine it has to do with profit margin.

John, if you're reading this, Estes has dropped the ball and needs to return to their previous process/materials, asap.

While there are other options out there and I have a ton of the old igniters, speaking as someone who almost always flies clusters, I ain't happy.

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  #2  
Old 05-02-2016, 08:05 PM
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I think it's all about regulatory pressure. Especially since they are now called "starters".

You can dramatically enhance them with a homemade dip. Dissolve a cut up ping pong ball in a small quantity (less than 1/4 cup) of acetone to make your own nitrocellulose lacquer. You don't need much. Mix in a little FFFF black powder, and dip the starters into the slurry and set aside to dry. It won't take much to greatly improve their effectiveness, so avoid overdipping and ending up with a tip that does not fit the nozzle.
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  #3  
Old 05-02-2016, 08:56 PM
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Comrades:

I think the problem is regulatory and there is no going back. Something about shipping the stuff of which the old ignitors are made.

With that said, I've not had a new "starter" fail on a 12v power supply this year (approximately 22 launches). On the other hand, either my sister or I installed them and were very careful to make sure the white stuff was touching the powder before pushing in the plugs and turning the motors over to the youngsters. In fact, in looking at my log, the one ignitor failure we did have this year was an old pyrogen ignitor. (1 for 8). I have no complaints on the new ones, but, like I said, I'm using a truck battery to launch 'em with an old Astron Launch Control..
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  #4  
Old 05-02-2016, 09:14 PM
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luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Agree...

The pyrogen covered a multitude of sins (like using crappy high-resistance, low current capability AA batteries in launch controllers, and imperfect contact with the propellant or incorrect installation in the rocket motor), and now that the pyrogen is gone and the white paint or whatever it is is the "new norm", the stupid dinky AA batteries just ain't gonna cut it anymore.

I too modified all my launch controllers to use regular 12 volt batteries, by hooking up to the car battery or better yet using a car battery jumper pack for high power and high portability.

The home-made dip idea is a good one, or just buy some pre-made dip from quick dip or Quick Burst or some of the other suppliers.

As for clustering, I dumped the stupid Estes ignitors a long time ago-- Quest Q2G2's are DEFINITELY the "go-to" ignitor for clustering, no doubt about it. Estes ignitors can't hold a candle to them...

Later! OL J R
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:01 PM
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These regulatory-issue-driven "starters" are less forgiving of not-quite-right installation than the black-tipped Solar igniters but they still work just fine if they are solidly in contact with the propellant - even when fired with the little 9V-battery-powered Astron II controller or any Electron Beam/Solar controller with quality alkaline AAs in it.

Or that's my experience anyway.....
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  #6  
Old 05-02-2016, 11:22 PM
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It is easier to purchase a pint of Nitrate Dope (Nitrocellulose base) at a hobby shop or better yet a small bottle of Clear Nitrocellulose nail-polish (available at ANY major drug store, Target, etc) instead of dissolving a ping-pong ball in Acetone.
Mix some FFF or FFFF black powder or firecracker flash-powder or even some crushed-up material from firework sparklers with a small quantity of the Nitrate Dope to create a pyrogen 'slurry' then dip the Estes new "starter" tips in this "home-made" pyrogen.
The new 'starters' are absolute CRAP compared to the old "Solar Igniters" and I never thought the old Solar Igniters were all that great.
My best pal from college had his son and 5 other boys build rockets at his son's 10th birthday party 2 weeks ago. They built one each in 2 hours and then they made 12 attempts to launch with the lousy 9V Estes controller and new 'starters' and got exactly ZERO engines ignited. My buddy called me and was FURIOUS. I told him to pick up the Pro Series II controller or better yet an Aerotech Interlock and he would no longer have problems, but he should get better igniters or try CANNON FUSE as he has 5 acres of his OWN land to fly on.
I use an old Astron controller and a sealed 7Ah 12V wet-cell from my R/C flight box with BARE NICHROME for all launches but clusters and have an almost 100% ignition success rate.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2016, 12:46 AM
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All he probably needed was a quality 9V in the Astron II controller (Duracell, Energizer) rather than an off brand knock-off. There are also lithium rechargeables that are 9V form factor but really 3 lithium cells that work well in that little controller.

Agreed, however, that the PSII controller is MUCH better - six C cells (or better, a 3s LiPoly) trumps even a Duracell 9V radio battery....

Sorry the kids had such an unsuccessful time.
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2016, 08:25 AM
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I used new igniters for last year's school launch with 100% success. I took the time to pre-install all igniters myself, making sure to get contact with the BP. The students and teachers are still able to install motors, hook up leads, or whatever else you want them to do for themselves. I started doing it that way back when we still had black pyrogen. I had lots of misfires due to students and their teachers half installing, breaking, etc. the igniters. I couldn't waste time fixing at least one rocket on nearly every rack that we launched. Granted, our program is for 3rd grade instead of middle school, but the results are still valid.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:06 AM
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My buddy used a brand new Energizer LITHIUM 9V battery in that stoopyd controller.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2016, 09:36 AM
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It has to do with ATF regulating igniters. The so-called starters use a different compound that I believe decomposes rather than ignites to create the required temperature.

Old ATF rules before the lawsuit exempted all DOT Class C items (now 1.4) with 27 CFR 55.141(a)(7). APCP was exempt under 27 CFR 55.141(a)(8).

When ATF rewrote those rules out of the blue they changed A7 to exempt specific UN numbers including model rocket motors with their associated igniters, and later issued a letter ruling allowing packages to include spare igniters as still exempt. I think they have some limit on how many spares are allowed. But vague enough to leave a selective enforcement zone.

When we won the lawsuit against ATF making all slow burning propellants exempt from regulation in their entirety, igniters with those materials on them as well became exempt.

But ATF is saber rattling by saying igniters were not addressed, which is not the case since the material itself is exempt. Estes and AT don't have the balls to push it.

On UN0336, UN0337, UN0431, or UN0432 that is limited to the 1.4S limit which is about 30g propellant mass.

One firm took the time to negotiate with ATF to get a traditional style electric match approved as exempt by elimitating the ultra-tiny amounts of high explosive in traditional electric matches.

That approach should be used by Estes and AT. Note CTI has no problems and they include an electric match to ignite their BP pellet in the top of every motor.

cite:

https://electricmatch.com

http://www.v-serv.com/usr/ATFE-03-16-09.pdf

"ATFE’s own burn rate threshold for deflagration is 1000 millimeters (or one meter) per second."
Tripoli Rocketry Ass’n, 437 F.3d at 81-82

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/555.141

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13 June 2002 Jerry Irvine post

This is in reply to a long and abusive thread from last month. The text of that code is:
Definitions
a device that generates gas through the burning of a fuel to do work.
Well, what do you know, BATF calls that a Propellant Actuated Device. From 27 CFR 55.11, "Propellant Actuated Device. Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system which is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge."
So, looking at the exemptions in 27 CFR 55.141, "(a) General. Except for the provisions of PP55.180 and 55.181 (ed. dealing with plastic explosives), this part does not apply to:
...
(8) Gasoline, fertilizers, propellant actuated devices, or propellant actuated industrial tools manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purposes. ..."
From this, it reads that as long as the rocket motors (MR, HPR, EX, Amatuer) are manufactured, imported, or distributed for their intended purpose for use as rocket engines, they are exempt. Amazingly enough, there is no size limitation on what is exempted.

"It is not the purpose of this title to place any undue or unnecesary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, storage, or use of explosive materials for industrial, mining, agricultural, or other lawful purposes, or to provide for the imposition by Federal regulations of any procedures or requirements other than those reasonably necessary to implement the provisions of this title."

Explosives are defined by congress as "an chemical compound mixture, or device, the PRIMARY OR COMMON purpose of which is to function by explosion...".
A consumer rocket motor, delay, ejection charge, or igniter functions by combustion not explosion.

Irvine: Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to DOT HMR. (Hazmat)

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 05-03-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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