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  #111  
Old 10-25-2016, 10:30 AM
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JumpJet JumpJet is offline
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I read the Peak of Flight article. I don't see the induction stabilization method being of practical use as a kit. Also I am not sure now many finless full size rockets would allow large openings in the side of the body and still be scale in outline and appearance.


I think a Minute Man type rocket would make a cool kit if it can be done without using some type of fins. So if you can design, build and test fly a scale model one that is stable all the time I would like to see it in action via a video. If Estes ever kits one of the new generation of space rockets now flying, having a working model to do some test flying would come in handy since most of them have little to no fins on them.



John Boren
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  #112  
Old 10-25-2016, 12:50 PM
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Default Great read!

Blackshire,

I enjoyed the Talos missile info... however, the life on board stories by the officer and
especially the enlisted man are great!

Go Navy!

Bob
p.s. I love the pink pages :-)
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Last edited by Blushingmule : 10-25-2016 at 01:09 PM.
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  #113  
Old 10-25-2016, 07:08 PM
frognbuff frognbuff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
I read the Peak of Flight article. I don't see the induction stabilization method being of practical use as a kit. Also I am not sure now many finless full size rockets would allow large openings in the side of the body and still be scale in outline and appearance.


I think a Minute Man type rocket would make a cool kit if it can be done without using some type of fins. So if you can design, build and test fly a scale model one that is stable all the time I would like to see it in action via a video. If Estes ever kits one of the new generation of space rockets now flying, having a working model to do some test flying would come in handy since most of them have little to no fins on them.



John Boren


I played around with gas-dynamic stabilization and it does work. The method of cutting holes in the main tube is probably the method under consideration here for a Minuteman model. All I can say is it is perfect for the person who wants their rocket to have the "well used" look. It scorches the heck out of the tubing, bubbles the paint, etc. My prototype (of no vehicle in particular - just a test model) looked like garbage after only two flights. It might be less destructive with a large diameter (e.g., BT-80 or more) kit. I never tried a larger model. Mine was only BT-55 with an 18mm motor.
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  #114  
Old 10-25-2016, 07:15 PM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
I played around with gas-dynamic stabilization and it does work. The method of cutting holes in the main tube is probably the method under consideration here for a Minuteman model. All I can say is it is perfect for the person who wants their rocket to have the "well used" look. It scorches the heck out of the tubing, bubbles the paint, etc. My prototype (of no vehicle in particular - just a test model) looked like garbage after only two flights. It might be less destructive with a large diameter (e.g., BT-80 or more) kit. I never tried a larger model. Mine was only BT-55 with an 18mm motor.

Sounds like a good candidate for a FAF (fire and forget) missile.
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  #115  
Old 10-26-2016, 01:52 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
I read the Peak of Flight article. I don't see the induction stabilization method being of practical use as a kit. Also I am not sure now many finless full size rockets would allow large openings in the side of the body and still be scale in outline and appearance.


I think a Minute Man type rocket would make a cool kit if it can be done without using some type of fins. So if you can design, build and test fly a scale model one that is stable all the time I would like to see it in action via a video. If Estes ever kits one of the new generation of space rockets now flying, having a working model to do some test flying would come in handy since most of them have little to no fins on them.



John Boren
Attached below is one of two files on his models, which both contain model plans. (The other file, being 1.03 MB in size, is too large to attach here--I will try to 'PM' it to you or, if that doesn't work, e-mail it to you through YORF's system. This larger file contains scale data and finless model plans for several Fleet Ballistic Missiles [FBMs].) The attached file below is about a model of the Polaris A-1 that he built and flew. Its gas-dynamic stabilization vent holes were small, and they were easily hidden among the stripes of the model's test vehicle roll pattern. Also:

Regarding Frognbuff's comment about these models' exteriors becoming singed, with the paint finish bubbling from exposure to the exhaust heat, M. Dean Black probably encountered the same problems, because his finless model designs all have large diameters with respect to their model rocket motors. (His 18 mm motor-powered models use BT-80 body tubes [or other tubes of similar diameter], and he uses 2.6" diameter tubes for 24 mm motor models.) This ensures that the "bypass ratio" (to use turbofan terminology) is high enough that the combined rocket exhaust/entrained air exhaust stream is relatively cool. In addition:

While I'd like to try such models myself, I no longer have a rocket flying field (it reverted to the foundation that owns it after its tenant user died, and it's no longer accessible). Plus, I now have so many medical appointments (no fewer than five last week, and another four this week--it never ends...) that I have little time or energy for building rockets anymore, and I have a gnawing sense that this state of affairs won't change.
Attached Files
File Type: doc polarismodel1.doc (79.5 KB, 32 views)
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  #116  
Old 10-26-2016, 02:16 AM
Woody's Workshop Woody's Workshop is offline
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Thanks for sharing Jason.
I added to my files.
Gettin cold here now!
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  #117  
Old 10-26-2016, 02:32 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blushingmule
Blackshire,

I enjoyed the Talos missile info... however, the life on board stories by the officer and
especially the enlisted man are great!

Go Navy!

Bob
p.s. I love the pink pages :-)
You're welcome. That site did flesh out the daily lives of Navy personnel on those vessels in those days. Also:

Go Navy, indeed! Another site--whose name I can't recall (I viewed it on a previous computer)--covered how the Project Vanguard satellites (the 20" ones, in particular) were actually hidden-in-plain-sight test vehicles for several Navy spy satellites, which were 20" diameter cylinders with hemispherical ends (those hemispherical ends being flight-proven Vanguard hardware). It was long a puzzle as to why the official U.S. IGY (International Geophysical Year) *civilian* satellite project was run by the U.S. Navy, but it was the first hidden-in-plain-sight spysat project (GRAB was another ostensibly scientific satellite series, which was actually an electronic "ferret" spy satellite project).
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #118  
Old 10-26-2016, 04:46 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Default "Full-ascent stable" finless model rockets (info & links)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpJet
I read the Peak of Flight article. I don't see the induction stabilization method being of practical use as a kit. Also I am not sure now many finless full size rockets would allow large openings in the side of the body and still be scale in outline and appearance.


I think a Minute Man type rocket would make a cool kit if it can be done without using some type of fins. So if you can design, build and test fly a scale model one that is stable all the time I would like to see it in action via a video. If Estes ever kits one of the new generation of space rockets now flying, having a working model to do some test flying would come in handy since most of them have little to no fins on them.



John Boren
A "two-diameter" (or more, depending on the version) scale model rocket such as a Minuteman I, II, or III would be quite easy to make stable throughout its powered *and* coasting flight, because [1] the mass of the model rocket motor and the packed recovery system would be up front, and [2] because the larger-diameter, hollow first stage and its transition section would act like a "conical flare stabilizer" (which the finless upper stages of some sounding rockets and test vehicles--such as the X-17--have used). Constant-diameter finless models can also be “full-ascent” stabilized; they just need a little forward ballast. Also:

The University of Maryland Oriole sounding rocket of the late 1950s (it's covered on pages 582 - 584 *here*, in a PDF scan of the whole book! [see: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/...19790011995.pdf ]--it's Joseph Adams Shortal's book titled "A New Dimension--Wallops Island Flight Test Range: The First Fifteen Years") had a slender, finless, two-diameter dart that was boosted by a Loki rocket motor. The Oriole’s finless, two-diameter dart was stabilized (in coasting flight, after drag-separating from the spent Loki motor) just as a Minuteman finless scale model would be stabilized in coasting flight, after its model rocket motor ceased thrusting (the motor would provide gas-dynamic stabilization while it was thrusting). Richard Morrow's book "Small Sounding Rockets" also covers the Oriole (see: http://traxellabs.com/smallsounding....org/Oriole.jpg and http://www.aeroconsystems.com/liter...ing_rockets.htm ). The narrower forward section of the Oriole's dart was solid metal and acted as forward ballast for the wider, hollow rear section of the dart, which housed instruments or chemical release payloads. [NOTE: Both Shortal's and Morrow's books are chock-full of scale data on many different sounding rockets and meteorological rockets, and (in Shortal's book) on rocket-powered aerodynamic test vehicles and even some missiles.]

I hope this material will be helpful.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Last edited by blackshire : 10-26-2016 at 05:22 AM.
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