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  #11  
Old 05-26-2014, 04:25 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harsas
I would ask if you would if you think we should lose all the safety rules in high power rocketry.
Very few of the rules are for safety, but for commercial dominance by a select few (I used to be one), hand selected by a political upper class, who report to the last few remaining folks willing to annually renew a membership as tithe, and also willing to limit themselves to self-serving club certified motors contrary to federal law.

Club membership is not REQUIRED to access model rocket motors.

The safe distance to launch an N motor is 100 feet. I know this because I have done it for four decades, more than a decade longer than anybody I have ever met. What does NAR/TRA/NFPA say? 1500 feet? That is not safety. That is codifying a PC rule arbitrarily arrived at and never reviewed for excessiveness.

BATFE newly declared propellant to be an explosive despite the fact it does not explode till a JUDGE forced them to sit down and shut up.

Even though their own decades old self-written regulation 55.141-1-8 and a-7 clearly exempted propellant (and igniters and fuse) from such consideration.

DOT should certainly be next to exempt slow ambient burning propellants! NAR and TRA are you listening at all??

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 05-26-2014 at 05:45 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2014, 06:44 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Since MMA has came into general prominence, I never watch boxing.
Boxing just plain sucks compared to MMA. I actually prefer the old "Pride Fighting" rules to the UFC rules.
Pride allowed almost everything but Hair-Pulls and Eye Gouging.
Pride even allowed "Ear Klops" where one cups their hands and slams them to the ears of their opponent, thusly stunning them.
Yes, I LIKE the next to no-rules A$$-KIKKIN'S of MMA. Roundhouse kicks or elbows to the head that knock out an opponent as quick as turning off a light switch. I LIKE the brutality and find it a much better value for the buck than ANY boxing ever could.
I like it when brawls break out in baseball and hockey games. The refs should stay the hell out of them and let it ENTERTAIN the crowd.

As far as High-Power Rocketry goes, yes I would like to see virtually all the regs removed including requiring any sort of certification. There should be ZERO weight/power limit for hobby rocketry and a waiver should only be required if flying over 3000' in CONTROLLED airspace such as for final approach to international airports. Most rules and regs that impact INDIVIDUAL freedom SUCK. If one wants to launch a J-motor rocket in their backyard, there should be NO regulations preventing it. I'm ALWAYS of the opinion that "No Harm=NO FOUL".

Bottom line, I find most rules on individuals to be a stifling nuisance. If one harms another, they have to pay the consequences.

NASCAR should run with zero insurance and make fans, employees, and drivers sign iron-clad hold-harmless waivers exempting ALL from any risk liability or not be allowed to participate. SHUT the lawyers down. If you dont want to risk it, stay HOME
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  #13  
Old 05-27-2014, 01:36 AM
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georgegassaway georgegassaway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I for one am sick and tired of the bias in professional motor racing toward mamby-pamby candy-a$$ed safety at the expense of performance/speed.
Examples:
[examples of putting all the drivers and pit crews lives in more danger , but not GH's in danger, deleted]

All talk, no skin in the game.

YOUR a** is not the one at risk on pit lane if the cars didn't have any speed limits.

YOUR a** is also not the one in the driver's seat, at risk of injury or death

All the safety stuff is needed. The 1970's? Only a bit better than the 1960's, which were a bit better than the 1950's, as far as drivers killed in wrecks at far slower speeds than later on. Like the high-sitting open cockpit Indy cars, no roll cages, where sometimes a driver could FALL OUT of the car, as happened in Indy in the 1950's or so.

Or the flaming wrecks that caused drivers severe permanent injury (Nikki Lauda) or literally burning to death trapped in a car (Swede Savage, though it took 2-3 weeks but IIRC seeing his car rocking back and forth after it stopped……like he was trying to get out as it burned as safety equipment took way too long to get there). And that is just two of too many.

Ah, those were the days be a "race fan", eh? Permanent injuries or death a few times each year. Bull****.

I remember in the 1990's when a number of drivers died. Adam Petty (Kyle's son, Richard's grandson). Clifford Allison (Bobby's son, brother of Davey), Neil Bonnett, and a number of others. Most of them in accidents that broke their necks due to the car and their bodies coming to a sudden stop while their head and helmet were not restrained so the skull popped loose from the spine.

Every f*cking time, NASCAR said nope, no safety devices that could be developed to prevent those. Translation: SUPER-Star didn't die, they were not important enough to NASCAR. Then Dale Earnhardt Sr died, and THEN within a YEAR, all of a sudden new secret technology was given by NASA and DARPA to address many of the key problems. Well, not really. NASCAR required drivers to wear the HANS device that had already been developed for use by drivers in CART and Indy car racing, which is what helps keep the head attached to the body in Adam Petty / Clifford Allison / Neil Bonnett / Dale Earnhardt SR -type crashes.

And the "soft wall, for decades NASCAR claimed a "rubber wall" would just make cars bounce back onto the track, and also of course nobody "important enough" had died yet. And still it wasn't NASCAR that developed it. It was developed for Indycar, for the Indianapolis race track, using crushable foam (like wall insulating foam sheets) with a flexible steel wall in front that would bend and absorb shock without cars bouncing back like a rubber ball. Today, most of the viewers of NASCAR races think the SAFER barrier was a NASCAR invention.

Sadly, many of my favorite drivers of the 70's and 80's and into the 90's did not retire of their own. Richard Petty retired by choice, few other of my favorites got to retire. Bobby Allison was in a horrible wreck, hitting the outer concrete wall very hard, which caused a brain injury he nearly died from. A SAFER barrier would have probably prevented that severe brain injury, though a HANS device may also have helped. Definitely the HANS device and/or SAFER wall would have probably saved Clifford Allison, Neil Bonnett, Adam Petty, and many others through the years ( I think Tiny Lund died the same way in the 1970's), but NASCAR kept treating the same "skull snapped off from spine" fatal injury (like a long-drop hanging execution) as the price of doing business….when it was the drivers, their families, friends, and fans paying that price, not NASCAR (also most of those happened during practice or running for the pole and not during an actual race).

When Earnhardt was killed on Fox Sports' heavily hyped FIRST Daytona 500 broadcast, in what looked to be a relatively minor crash, that is what had the fans and the networks clamoring for NASCAR to finally quit pretending it was not a problem and stop lying about it being impossible to do anything. That was NASCAR's "9/11", or "Challenger" moment, unfortunately caused to some extent by their own neglect of not having a high priority on driver safety, as shown by ridiculing the soft wall idea for decades rather than actually trying to test any out.

I'm a big fan of racing. And I mean RACING. I'm not into it for the crashes, anyone who cheers for crashes is not a race fan. I worked a few times on a charter bus from Birmingham to the Talladega races. One time two guys, who brought their own ice chest of beer, asked where the best place would be to sit to see the crashes. Those guys were not race fans, they just wanted to gawk and get drunk (one of them was a problem on the drive back). But since they were customers I didn't tell them that they were not real race fans, but I also didn't recommend anyplace to see the wrecks better, even if any place had come to mind. I can think of a wreck that happened with Kyle Busch, who drives too recklessly and crashes out other drivers more than most anyone else. The crowd cheered when he wrecked…. but several other cars got wrecked with him and I do not know how so many in the crowd could be sure that THEIR favorite driver was not caught in the same wreck, in which case some probably were accidentally cheering their own driver being wrecked (because the wreck was at the far end of the track where it was hard to make out the other specific cars by eye, Talladega is a huge track). To me that's another big reason NOT to like wrecks, aside from the danger, and injury risk, but that wrecks are wild cards that can catch your own favorite driver in one and ruin your enjoyment of the rest of the race (not to mention your driver's of course!).

So, GH, how many real world car races DID you race in and win? How many times were you on the pit crew "over the wall" during green flag racing, with no speed limits? When was the last NASCAR or Indycar/CART race you attended?

If you don't like the safety rules in racing……. then don't watch it! I'd rather see safe races that are RACES rather than crash-fests, and for drivers to eventually retire of their own choice rather than to be crippled or killed.

- George Gassaway
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Last edited by georgegassaway : 05-27-2014 at 01:57 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:05 AM
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gpoehlein gpoehlein is offline
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I would like to note that I agree 100% with George's post. It has been a long standing observation of mine that sports are DEFINED by their rules, not limited by them. Rules provide the boundaries that allow the athletes to prove their greatness within. Ever watch an air race? A group of planes looping several times around two pylons. The guy with the fastest plane wins - period. That is why I like F1 racing the most - yes, a car that has good speed and good handling helps, but the skill of the driver is extremely important as well. In fact THAT is the reason for your much despised "restrictor plates" - they make sure that the race is a much more even playing field and keep the guys with the most money from running away with it.

As for the mayhem you so crave and miss - only a juvenile child would watch for that. Do you think that this is a Roadrunner-Coyote cartoon where they crash for your amusement only to get up and do it again? We are talking about people's lives here! I was watching the race on TV the day Savage was burned to death. I was watching the F1 race when Senna hit the wall and was impaled on a piece of his car. Two brilliant athletes who's lives were tragically cut short for the amusement and entertainment of those who watch for the crashes. And it isn't just the drivers - pit crew members have been injured or killed when hit by cars or debris. And isn't it hillarious when cars crash and a tire bounces over the safety fence and injures or kills several people in the crowd? But I guess all those people had it coming - they were at the race.

So for all those who like to see the carnage and mayhem - grow up! Or stop watching racing and go watch a 24 hour marathon of "Fight Club". Me, I'm perfectly happy watching the drivers go a few miles per hour slower, slow down in the pits and around accidents, and wear safety gear if it means everyone gets to go home to their loved ones intact and healthy at the end of the day!
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  #15  
Old 05-27-2014, 08:27 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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As usual, George is loaded with FECAL Gass.

I LIKE the Busch Brothers (Kyle & Kurt) brand of racing. Take no prisoners to get to the front. If it results in wrecks, TOUGH.

I watch for the SPEED, never the wrecks which just slow things down.

Safety devices should be the choice of the individual, not via some mamby-pamby mandate.

As I said before, if it slows the cars down for ANY reason, I would be against a rules change. If it increases the speed (no matter the indirect consequences) I would be in favor of it. If you dont want the risk to earn millions of $$$, dont participate.

I too saw the Senna fatal F1 crash live...while tragic, I'm sure he was aware of the risks.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2014, 09:45 AM
Doug Sams's Avatar
Doug Sams Doug Sams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
Then Dale Earnhardt Sr died, and THEN within a YEAR, all of a sudden new secret technology was given by NASA and DARPA to address many of the key problems. Well, not really. NASCAR required drivers to wear the HANS device that had already been developed for use by drivers in CART and Indy car racing, which is what helps keep the head attached to the body in Adam Petty / Clifford Allison / Neil Bonnett / Dale Earnhardt SR -type crashes.
Good post, George.

While we're picking on NASCAR, let me also point out that both Bonnett and Earnhardt, both of whom I met over the years, were killed in accidents where the dip in turn 4 at Daytona was a factor. And it was not fixed until several years after Earnhardt's death when the speedway was finally repaved.

The France family owns NASCAR, and most of International Speedway Corporation, which owns Daytona, Talledega, and many others, so they not only control the series, they control many of the tracks. Which means they were in charge, and could have repaired the dip in turn 4 years earlier without the added burden of repaving the entire track. IMO, both those deaths were preventable. (Altho I don't think Bonnett should have ever gotten back in the car after his head injury, at Darlington, IIRC. I think it made him more susceptible to subsequent head trauma, but I'm not a doctor.)
...

That said, taking a different perspective, just as airbags in cars are attributed to more drivers taking risks, I've noticed way more accidents, late in races, since NASCAR went to the HANS devices and newer cars with more crush space ("Car of Tomorrow"). That is, it seems like the racing has deteriorated some with the safer cars. It's frustrating they can't get thru the last 20 laps without 3 yellow flags. Then have a contrived green-white-checker finish too often. Some times, it's better to finish under caution than to have a do-over finish.


Doug


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  #17  
Old 05-27-2014, 09:58 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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There is a group pf people that want to "codify everything". There is a group of people who want the rules to resemble guidelines and a very brief list of actual codes. These systems drive different processes and outcomes. The problem is in most fields of endeavor the codify everything folks are winning, especially in rocketry.

However most of rocket growth and growth of other endeavors happened before the codification became prevalent. Reducing codification would propel growth.

Safe growth.

Jerry

The first "safety code":


Here is the very first "safety code" for model
rocketry. It was a vendor developed admonishion
by Rock-A-Chute company circa 1957.
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  #18  
Old 05-27-2014, 12:23 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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That old "Rock a Chute" safety code seems like PLENTY, and I'm not joking.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2014, 09:07 PM
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luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
The BEST kind of racing for thrills is STREET DRAG RACING. Next to no rules and blatantly scofflaw. I LIKE IT.
No helmets, no safety equipment, no regard for douchebag traffic cops, run-what-ya-brung no BS.


Wonder if you'd feel the same way if your family got killed by a couple idiots out doing illegal street racing... after all, they should have known what could happen if they got on the road in their car... free for all, right??

Bury your kid and shut up... we're havin' FUN!!!

Serious stupidity... and anybody that street drags and kills someone should get the death penalty...

Later! OL JR
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2014, 10:21 PM
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georgegassaway georgegassaway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
So, GH, how many real world car races DID you race in and win? How many times were you on the pit crew "over the wall" during green flag racing, with no speed limits? When was the last NASCAR or Indycar/CART race you attended?


OK, so GH refused to answer that. No surprise that he's all danger for everybody else (not HIM) but he's never raced, and apparently never even attended a race in person.

Just a big mouth spouting off bull$***, as typical.

I think that if the HANS device and SAFER barrier had not been created, one or more of my favorite drivers might have been kllied or unable to continue racing anymore, given very serious wrecks the last 10-12 years. So I take it that GH would rather drivers like that DIE or be severely injured, for GH to "get his jollies off", as he doesn't give a F*** about anybody else, just his twisted idea of "entertainment".

- George Gassaway
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