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  #11  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:07 AM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
To add to Sandman's powered sander suggestion: With any power tool, use a light touch and let the tool do the work for you.


That's true of ALL sanding... let the PAPER do the work (the grit anyway).

Biggest mistake I see people make is using TOO MUCH PRESSURE... it actually works MUCH better to use LESS pressure so that the sanded off particles can escape and the paper not get hot and gum up.

I've become something of a stickler for "perfect finishes" (at least "perfect from a couple feet away-- not necessarily "mirror" finishes) and after trying a lot of different methods, I've boiled it down to a pretty simple process that can make balsa fins and nose cones and transition look like plastic... and IMHO once you get to that point, there's little point in going further (unless you're doing carbon fiber or fiberglass HPR rockets and want to make them look like that "mile deep" show-car quality mirror reflection finishes... which is well and good, but probably won't survive flight or handling for very long...

I bought about every grit of sandpaper under the sun, but basically I use only two, and they're the only ones I buy now... 200 grit and 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I do EVERYTHING with those two...

For balsa fins, I almost ALWAYS simply "paper" the fins... I put a layer of regular printer paper on the fins that wraps over the leading edge and is trimmed down to the balsa on the root, tip, and trailing edges (or trimmed down to the trailing edge of the fin glued to itself to "encapsulate" the fin). This is a RIDICULOUSLY easy thing to do on most models (unless the fins have compound curves on the leading edge or different angles and are one-piece). Start by stack-sanding the fins with 200 grit to get them all identical size and shape. Sand the desired airfoil into the leading and trailing edges as desired with 200 grit (I generally round the leading edge and taper the trailing edge, but for scale rockets I often sand the leading edge to a "wedge" shape and leave the trailing edge squared off, which most closely approximates the fin shape of the actual rocket (most of which use wedge shapes). To paper the fin, apply a VERY THIN layer of white glue to a sheet of printer paper, push the fin down firmly onto the paper, then apply a second VERY THIN layer of white glue to the top of the fin or the other part of the paper on the other side of the leading edge... (either will work, but the idea is a THIN layer of glue... it should be tacky but there should be NO extra glue on the surface of the paper. Roll the fin over the leading edge and press it down firmly onto the paper on the other side, then using a sharpie marker, use the round barrel and rounded tip to "burnish" the paper down TIGHT against the wood, and squeeze out ALL the remaining excess glue. This doesn't take extreme pressure, just work from the center of the leading edge back toward the trailing edge, and from the center of the fin out toward both tip and root edges... finish by burnishing the paper down all the way around the fin to itself. Allow to dry overnight. Cut the fin out with scissors leaving about a 1/4-1/2 inch of extra paper all the way around the tip, trailing, and root edges (the leading edge will have the paper wrapped over it onto itself, and is already finished. Using a SHARP hobby knife, gently cut the excess paper away down to the balsa wood, and shave it down flush to the edges... then lightly dress the edges of the fin by drawing it at a slight angle across a sheet of 200 grit sandpaper on the work table. Flip and repeat for both sides of the tip, trailing, and root edges. This adds surprisingly little weight (usually less than a gram) to the fin and yet increases strength TREMENDOUSLY. Using the THIN layer of white glue, I've NEVER had one of these fins delaminate, and the balsa literally has to turn to dust in an impact before the fin will break or snap... Plus the grain is 100% filled, and all the fin needs is to be glued on the rocket (preferably using wood glue in a double-glue joint for maximum strength) and then they can be primered and sanded with the rest of the rocket and will look as smooth or smoother than plastic fins when complete.

For nosecones and transitions, I start with CA hardening of the balsa, using ultra-thin pink-bottle CA from Hobby Lobby (with the 40% off coupon its dirt cheap) that is gently applied to the cone surface holding it tip down straight from the bottle to the surface of the balsa... the balsa grain will "drink in" the CA due to capillary action, and it will harden inside the wood and seal off the grain (a bad thing for fins, which is why I NEVER recommend using CA on fins before they're firmly attached to the rocket body tube) but great for nosecones and transitions... it basically forms sort of a "composite material" consisting of the balsa wood fiber and the CA resin. It DOES raise balsa "hairs" of wood particles and sawdust "grit" but that is easily sanded off with 200 grit paper. I follow this with an application of Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Filler thinned with a few drops of water to the consistency of hot dog mustard, brushed on the surface and allowed to dry. Then this sands off very quickly and easily with 220 grit and maybe a quick pass of 440 grit, resulting in filling of all the "major" imperfections and remaining wood grain. Once the cone is pretty smooth, it's ready for primer. I give them several coats of Rusto gray "wet-sandable" auto-type primer, and allow to dry thoroughly (several hours to overnight or so, depending on conditions). Sand with 220 grit, and inspect the surface. If more primer is needed to finish filling or smoothing an area, now is the time to apply it. If the surface is smooth enough, follow with 440 grit sandpaper. The surface should now be quite smooth, with only some light sanding scratches and perhaps some very minor surface imperfections. If the appearance is "good enough" for you, then by all means, call it good and ready for paint. If you want that "plastic" appearance and smoothness, then the part should be "damp sanded". To do this, take a roughly 2x3 inch rectangle of 440 grit wet/dry sandpaper, dip it in a small bowl of water, shake it off (or daub it on an old towel) and then sand the part again... the remaining moisture in/on the paper will lubricate the sanding process, and the liberated "sanding dust" will combine with the moisture to form "sanding mud", which itself lubes and cools the paper and works as a sort of polishing compound as you sand... it will grow thicker and thicker as the paper removes more particles, and eventually the paper will clog with particles; when this happens, dip it in the water, rub the grit with your thumb to release the stuck primer particles, and then daub the paper on the towel and resume sanding. It helps to periodically remove the excess "sanding mud" with a damp paper towel and dry the part with a clean paper towel. Hold the part up at eye level looking toward a distant light source like a lamp, brightly lit window, etc. Observe the "glint" of reflected light off the surface of the finished part... if the glint is smooth and unbroken, and not wavy or distorted, and it is smooth and not 'fuzzy' looking from sanding scratches, the surface is ready for paint and will look like plastic when painted...

It sounds like a lot of work, but it really isn't... I can prep a nosecone with a total sanding time of maybe 20-30 minutes all total, including sanding after the CA hardening, sanding off excess Carpenter's Wood Filler, sanding down the primer with 220 to take off the excess, and 440 grit to smooth it out, and 440 damp sanding to make it "glass smooth"... and it's all in short bursts of a few minutes each, with long breaks in between usually...

To be continued...

OL JR
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:07 AM
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Continued...

There's a few rules of thumb to remember to get a "flawless" finish-- The first is, PAINT DOES NOT COVER IMPERFECTIONS-- IT MAGNIFIES THEM. IOW, THE FINAL FINISH WILL APPEAR NO BETTER THAN HOW THE FINISHED PRIMERED SURFACE LOOKS BEFORE PAINTING. If you can see imperfections, sanding scratches, or other such things in the surface BEFORE painting, you WILL see them afterwards when the paint is dry... ESPECIALLY with gloss paints... (flats, due to their "pebbly" surface, tend to hide more than glossy finishes that "wet out" on the surface to a smooth layer). THE FINAL APPEARANCE OF ANY PAINT JOB IS NO BETTER THAN THE PREP WORK THAT WENT INTO IT. IOW, putting a good paint job over a crappy surface will result in a crappy looking finish-- and as a counterpoint, putting a well-applied paint job over an immaculately prepared surface, even with cheap paint, will look good. IT'S NOT THE PAINT AS MUCH AS THE PREPARATION! There is NO "magic paint" that can make up for poor surface prep work, REGARDLESS of what the companies pandering to folks too lazy to prime stuff properly and then paint it would have you believe... (that primer/paint combo stuff is crap... if you want a good finish, you MUST primer and sand the primer (surface prep) BEFORE PAINTING.

The second thing is, SAND PROPERLY. Again, this is something MOST people tend to screw up... Some folks use too much pressure, or sand improperly. First off, DON'T USE TOO MUCH PRESSURE... If the part or paper is getting warm or hot, or if the primer is getting gummy and the paper is clogging, YOU'RE USING TOO MUCH PRESSURE. Heat is wasted energy that simply mucks up the operation. LET THE PAPER (GRIT) DO THE WORK! Light sanding, while it might take a LITTLE longer, will be MUCH easier work to do and much more enjoyable than trying to SHAVE the primer off by pressing the paper down hard against the part. In addition, the paper will last MUCH longer and you won't sand in DEEP SANDING SCRATCHES, which are virtually GUARANTEED with using too much force. SAND LIGHTLY. Second, KEEP THE SANDPAPER MOVING ON THE SURFACE... DO NOT SAND IN ONE SPOT (unless you're taking off a high spot or sanding a blemish out above the surface). Sanding in one spot will lead to a flat spot or sunken spot that WILL be visible in the finished painted part. Sand using the correct motion-- ALWAYS SAND IN SMALL CIRCULAR MOTIONS-- NEVER SAND IN STRAIGHT LINES (to the extent it can be avoided). This helps to sand away the inevitable sanding scratches as you work... sanding in straight lines deepens and magnifies sanding scratches and makes them very hard to remove later. About the ONLY place this rule has to be "broken" is sanding around launch lugs and fin roots... due to the proximity of something sticking up from the surface, you kinda have to sand right up to the corners, but even then I use small circular motions with the paper folded over onto itself backwards and light pressure to minimize sanding scratches.

The third thing is ALWAYS KEEP THE PART MOVING. When sanding nosecones, I hold them in one hand and sand with the other, gently but constantly slowly turning the part in my hand as I sand... this eliminates flat spots and makes a MUCH smoother surface. Sanding round body tubes I use the same basic method-- turn the tube in your hand while sanding. For large flat surfaces like fins, move around on the surface sanding in small circular motions with the flats of two fingers (best not to sand with fingertips due to the concentration of pressure and unevenness...) ALWAYS keep moving around to different areas in a constant, slow progression of the circular motion around the surface of the fin...

You mentioned hand problems and I can't give specific recommendations for that... if you cannot hold sandpaper in your hands or keep your hands in the correct shape for long enough to finish the job without pain, then seems to me you might want to make particular use of sanding sponges, sticks, sanding Tees, and other such tools to hold the paper... but use the same techniques I pointed out above... even using a mechanical sander, remember to sand in small circular motions (move the tool in small circles), don't sand in straight lines, and don't use too much pressure, and keep the tool moving over the surface and not sitting still on one spot... That will get you your best finishes.

You will have to experiment and find what works best FOR YOU and what's most comfortable with your hands and conditions... but the general principles are the same. Some folks here like to do 6-8 passes with sanding sealer or dope and stuff like that, sanding between each pass to get things really smooth-- I'd rather paper the fins and prime them, strengthening and smoothing them simultaneously, and spend a little more time on the cone/transitions, but only take the rough stuff off the balsa after CA'ing it, sanding off Carpenter's Wood Filler (which sands off VERY easily compared to sanding sealer) in a fairly quick/easy couple passes (220 and if desired 440 grit) and then primering and sanding it down smooth with 220 followed by 440 grit (you can skip the 440 grit on primer in most cases if you have a well-filled surface and let the primer do the final filling work for you). The final damp sanding of the primer with damp 440 paper is optional too; strictly for that "plastic" look and finish, if desired...

That's about the shortest I've been able to cut it and still come out with the level of surface finish that I desire... If you're willing to settle for a "looks good from 20 feet away" finish, you can do a lot less... It's all up to you and what you're comfortable with and wanting to do...

Later and good luck! OL JR
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2015, 06:41 AM
JediBoss JediBoss is offline
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Thank you sir for the excellent advice. I see that I came to the right spot to have my questions answered. I have a love for this hobby, but my hands will lock up after a while, drop things that I am holding, etc. Individual fingers will also lock up randomly. Oh, what a fun thing to grow old!
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JediBoss
Thank you sir for the excellent advice. I see that I came to the right spot to have my questions answered. I have a love for this hobby, but my hands will lock up after a while, drop things that I am holding, etc. Individual fingers will also lock up randomly. Oh, what a fun thing to grow old!


I hear ya, and we're all headed there sooner or later...

It's probably a good idea to take frequent breaks-- take ones time on the build and not get in too big a hurry and work too long at one time.

Don't know how you do fins, but if you haven't tried it, here's a trick that easily greatly increases the strength of the fin joints. A real bonus for builders that can't hold the fins in position for long periods of time necessary for the glue to "grab hold" of the fin and stick them in place, without resorting to using weak super glue (CA) to "tack" the fins in place (which seals off the pores of the wood and prevents wood glue from getting proper penetration into the wood grain, therefore compromising the strength of the joint-- plus CA is very weak in shear-- the exact same sort of force exerted on the fin at landing when the fins hit the ground under parachute or streamer as the moving rocket descends.)

Apply a fairly thin layer of yellow glue to the fin root edges, and allow it to dry. I use an old egg carton (the foam ones that eggs come in from the store) flipped upside down, with the individual egg cups slit cross-wise with a sharp hobby knife-- stick the tip edges of the fins in the slits and they'll hold the fins perfectly level while the wood glue dries and prevent any running from one end to the other). It doesn't have to be dried "rock hard", just "mostly dry" is good enough. At the same time, put a fairly thin layer of wood glue on the rocket body tube where the fins will attach... for extra strength, one can sand the tube lightly in these areas with a little 220 grit sandpaper, if desired, to open up the glassine coating and allow the glue to soak into the paper itself underneath. I generally just put a small bead of wood glue on the fin lines, then smear it out with a damp finger, and wipe off the excess... the tube can sit in the "valley" between the egg cups of the carton with the fin end of the tube with the yellow glue applied hanging over the end, and allow it to dry as well at the same time the fins are drying.

Once the glue is mostly dry (only slightly tacky or leathery to the touch, although it's okay if it's dry) it's time to attach the fins. Take each fin, apply a THIN layer of yellow wood glue to the root edges again over the dried glue, then take the rocket tube in your other hand. Carefully align the fin root with the body tube fin line (which you can still see through the dried glue covering it) and then carefully bring to the two together in alignment. Hold them together gently but firmly for about 20-30 seconds, and the wood glue will *near instantly* LOCK the two pieces together... be careful in your alignment, because once the fin and tube touch, the locking process begins and you don't have much if any time to adjust the fin location or alignment. Holding it just ensures everything is "locked up tight" before you move on to the next fin. Once all the fins are on, I like to stand the rocket fin end up to allow the fins to dry so there's no chance of them sagging. Now is the time to make sure they're all 90 degrees directly away from the tube and perfectly straight. I put the rocket standing up over an old dowel in a wood block or over something that will hold it up straight. The fins will dry in position in about an hour or so, usually, depending on the size and conditions.

Next comes applying fillets. The easiest way to do this that I've found and maintain the strength that comes from properly applied wood glue fillets is to used Titebond Moulding and Trim Wood Glue, which is a thickened form of wood glue. It might be a little hard to find-- the stupid big box stores and Walmarts and such have quit carrying it to simplify their ordering and stocking systems, but you can still get it at a lot of ACE hardware stores and lumberyards and woodworking supplies and stuff like that, or online. It's great stuff. You can apply ALL the fillets at one time, and they'll stay put without any running, sagging, or drips like you get with regular runny yellow wood glue. Best of all, it doesn't require gloves or tape or other stuff like epoxy fillets do. Just apply the fillet of glue to each side of the fin joint, wipe a damp finger down the length of the fillet to spread/shape the fillet and blend it to the tube and fin surface, and wipe off the excess... shape the fillet to your heart's desire, and move on to the next one. Since it won't run or drip (unless you make VERY big, thick, heavy fillets) you can do them all at once and then set the rocket tube in the egg carton valley between the egg cups to dry. If you want thicker/wider fillets, once the first application is dry, build them up with another application directly over the first. Best of all, these fillets require NO sanding or other shaping once their dry, (they CAN be sanded, like any wood glue, but it's completely unnecessary... just apply the glue fillet and shape it with a damp finger to your desired final contour and appearance, and since the glue doesn't appreciably shrink or run or sag, the final fillet will look virtually exactly like you applied it when the glue was wet, but it'll be mostly transparent when dry. The finished fillets can be painted over directly with regular primers and paints.

Works great and really speeds things up, and eliminates the need for costly and troublesome fin jigs to align everything for runny regular yellow glue to attach the fins and the extra work that comes from runny yellow wood glue fillets leaving drips and sags that have to be sanded off or leveled out...

Good luck! OL J R
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2015, 04:08 PM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Have you tried a sanding block?

It strikes me that if you have trouble gripping a full size block, you could cut a sanding block in half lengthwise. I may actually try that just to have a narrower and easier to handle block.

Last I checked, Big Lots was selling a good quality hard rubber sanding block for cheap.

You shouldn't have to cut/modify sanding blocks. Various companies make dozens if not hundreds of different shapes and sizes.

Here's a couple of quick Google searches where you can see all kinds of sanding blocks and choose what you think will work best with your grip. The hobby specific ones are usually smaller but odd shapes and sizes can be found in automotive, woodworking, and hobby genres.

General search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=san...iw=1349&bih=921

Hobby specific search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=san...+sanding+blocks
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  #16  
Old 12-20-2015, 10:22 AM
PaulK PaulK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediBoss
Thank you sir for the excellent advice. I see that I came to the right spot to have my questions answered. I have a love for this hobby, but my hands will lock up after a while, drop things that I am holding, etc. Individual fingers will also lock up randomly. Oh, what a fun thing to grow old!
I have similar problems, though probably not as bad. In addition to a number of different size sanding blocks, I use sanding sticks pretty often. They're not great for large surfaces, but are very easy to hold and use for smaller fins & details. I use a small brass brush to keep them clean. For sanding inside curves, I use sticky backed paper on dowels. Sometimes make my own small blocks by stating sandpaper onto scrap wood, depending on what size I need - the key is to have a large length of 'handle' for easy holding.

I may have to get one of those cordless sanders - do you have to be really careful to keep from sanding too much off with those?
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulK

I may have to get one of those cordless sanders - do you have to be really careful to keep from sanding too much off with those?


Like any power tool they can easily get away from you but the variable speed should help with control.

Those "multi tools" just vibrate back and forth very fast so the risk to yourself is pretty remote.

They are based on the vibrating tool doctors use to remove a plaster cast without cutting the skin under the case.
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2015, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediBoss
Good Evening!
As someone who really loved this hobby as a kid and has been lurking here for a while, I have a sanding question. Specifically, my hands are pretty mangled from years of hard use, yet I want to do the best job that I can when assembling. Can anyone recommend a technique for gnarled, arthritic, carpal tunneled hands?

I can relate.

Likewise, because of the "mileage" of my hands and fingers I often have painful RA--and yet I LOVE sanding. Quite a dilemma.

So I cheat a little: I take the balsa sheet from the kit and very gently sand both sides with a quarter-sheet Makita finishing sander loaded with 400 grit for balsa or 220 grit for basswood or plywood.. I apply just enough hand pressure on the Makita to guide it, resulting in the smoothest balsa, basswood, or plywood sheets you can imagine.
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  #19  
Old 12-25-2015, 08:45 AM
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Many years ago on a Christmas morn such as this, one of my children gave me a present I really didn't think much of at the time. They were handles for twin blade razor cartridges made of metal and kinda heavy, made to look old fashiony. Kinda looked like the attached photo. Well they didn't have blades included and weren't packaged, so I figured the wife took the kids to the local close outs store and they found these there.

Well, feeling guilty about not using them, I went out and spent the money to buy a pack of cartridges. Now this was back a few years ago, back when triple blades were coming out and were the big thing. Having five children and no big time paying job, typically I would purchase cheap disposable razors. When I shaved using those handles, I was amazed, the heft of the handle added something to the shave and I felt like I was getting a triple blade shave.

I know, so what does this have to do with sanding...

Recently I started working on a Mars Snooper. Well as anyone can tell you who takes finishing seriously, the area around the vanes to the aft of the ship can be, shall we say tedious at the least. I have various methods and tried various methods including cutting up emery boards and well, a bunch of things. Then I had an idea. I went to Home Depot and bought a length of 1/4" square bar stock. I came home and cut off about a four inch length. Then I grinded one end with about a 45° angle and the other with a 30° angle. I cut a stripe of sandpaper, sprayed the back with adhesive and attached it to the bar stock, bending it around the angled edges.

Well, it was such a pleasure to sand with in tight ares and what not, I made some more. The concept of the heft of the tool doing the work and not me applying pressure all the time makes it almost enjoyable to sand. I would suggest giving it a try.
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  #20  
Old 12-25-2015, 09:07 AM
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Joe Shockcord Joe Shockcord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
...Well, it was such a pleasure to sand with in tight ares and what not, I made some more. The concept of the heft of the tool doing the work and not me applying pressure all the time makes it almost enjoyable to sand. I would suggest giving it a try.


Would it be possible for you to provide a picture of your sanding tool? I'd like to see that.
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