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  #31  
Old 08-17-2016, 10:36 AM
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hcmbanjo hcmbanjo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman
Rather than reinvent the wheel (rocket), how about getting Bill at BMS to make more Alway Saturn Vs?
Bill is probably easier to nag thanEstes.


I talked with Bill yesterday and mentioned there was (YORF) interest in the Alway Saturn V kit.
Right now he is busier than ever handling general orders.
He did say that the Alway Saturn V is one he'd like to produce again.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2016, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcmbanjo
I talked with Bill yesterday and mentioned there was (YORF) interest in the Alway Saturn V kit.
Right now he is busier than ever handling general orders.
He did say that the Alway Saturn V is one he'd like to produce again.


Thanks, Chris that sounds like good news..............but that's what he told me over a year ago when I was on the phone with him. I have sent him at least four emails since then with the same message about he would like to produce it again. So I appreciate the news but I'm not going to get my hopes up. Thanks again. I have decided to convert the AMT 1/200 plastic Saturn V.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2016, 03:49 PM
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One can even make the scale-sized-fin K-36 stable without the clear plastic fins with a bit of noseweight. You MUST use more than a single D12-3 for power though. It will fly safely on a 3xC6-3 or C5-3 cluster with the tiny stock fins.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2016, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
One can even make the scale-sized-fin K-36 stable without the clear plastic fins with a bit of noseweight. You MUST use more than a single D12-3 for power though. It will fly safely on a 3xC6-3 or C5-3 cluster with the tiny stock fins.


I flew my Centuri 1/100 scale Saturn - V a few years ago without the clear slip on fins (yes, added a little nose weight to move the CG a little further up). Flown using three C6-5's, the flight was a bit squirrely but otherwise successful.


https://youtu.be/0uTm-rbvQJk
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2016, 09:49 PM
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Wasn't the 5 second delay of the C6-5's a bit much ?
A FOUR engine cluster of C6-5's in the K-29 1/70 Saturn 1B is just about right, but with only 3 C's in the larger Saturn V would scare me to try it.
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2016, 10:37 PM
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Earl Earl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Wasn't the 5 second delay of the C6-5's a bit much ?
A FOUR engine cluster of C6-5's in the K-29 1/70 Saturn 1B is just about right, but with only 3 C's in the larger Saturn V would scare me to try it.


If I'm not mistaken, when both the Centuri and Estes Saturn Vs were originally introduced in 1969, the C6-3 did not exist. A three engine cluster of C6-5s were recommended for the Centuri Saturn V, and two were recommended for the Centuri Saturn 1b.

It was a bit later that the -3 C engines were introduced, and possibly a direct result of the need for a shorter delay for the Saturns. I do agree that a cluster of three C's with a five second delay *seems* a bit long.

Earl

P.S.- Just checked the Centuri and Estes 1969 catalogs. Centuri (who's catalog came out earlier that year than the Estes catalog, I think) does not list a C6-3 (and at that time, Estes was still making motors for them). The Estes 1969 DOES list a C6-3 engine and they recommend it for their Saturn V.

Seems then like the C6-3 engine was intrduced in fairly short order after the Centuri and Estes Saturns hit the market. The 1968 Estes catalog does NOT list a C6-3.
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2016, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Wasn't the 5 second delay of the C6-5's a bit much ?
A FOUR engine cluster of C6-5's in the K-29 1/70 Saturn 1B is just about right, but with only 3 C's in the larger Saturn V would scare me to try it.


I'm pretty sure I did use the five second delay; about a year earlier I had flown this same model at a joint Cub Scout/Challenger 498 launch at Rushing Park in Katy, TX but used three B6-4's for that flight (due to the size of the launch area, nearby trees and large asphalt parking area adjacent to the launch site). The B6's gave it a pretty nice boost, as the pics below show.

When I flew my Estes K-36 model in Needville, TX in July 2009 as a five engine cluster, I used the D12-3 core and four C6-3 outboards (the model, fully loaded, had a launch weight of one pound and three ounces). In observing the flight characteristics of that launch, the Saturn - V was still traveling at a pretty good speed during the upward coast after burnout. This might be the reason the 38" parachute for the upper section stripped completely from the sling for the recovery system. The next time I fly this same model, I will use the five second delay of the D12 and C6's as I know it'll still have plenty of mass and momentum to keep coasting prior to ejection.
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  #38  
Old 08-18-2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcmbanjo
I talked with Bill yesterday and mentioned there was (YORF) interest in the Alway Saturn V kit.
Right now he is busier than ever handling general orders.
He did say that the Alway Saturn V is one he'd like to produce again.


Hear hear! The Alway Saturn V is a magnificent kit. I would love to see it in production again. In the meantime, I have a scratch BT-70 Saturn V project waiting on the workbench.

I got a K-39 semi-scale Saturn V as a kid and never finished it because those clear plastic fins were just beyond my technical capability. Model cement made a mess and my dad wasn't about to let me touch the epoxy. Sadly, I never finished the kit and it eventually mysteriously disappeared from my room after mom did some housecleaning. It's a shame, that kit had a really nice nose cone. I should have just fabricated some equivalent balsa fins (a la The Sandlot 2) and finished it.

I'm sure we all have a failed kit in our past that we wish we could try again. The K-39 is mine.
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Last edited by Joe Shockcord : 08-21-2016 at 09:03 AM.
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2016, 07:17 AM
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Estes' 1:242 scale, BT-60 size, Semi-Scale Saturn V kit #1239 (see: http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/est1239.htm and http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts...Parts.asp?ID=40 ) could be produced today as a Scale kit, using 3D printed plastic parts. It could use one 18 mm "A" - "C" motor, like the original kit did (18 mm composite "D" motors--with White Lightning propellant for scale realism--would also fit the 18 mm motor mount), or one 24 mm "D" or "E" motor (or the 24 mm C11 motors; an 18 mm motor plastic "split adapter," or a regular adapter mount, could also fit in the 24 mm motor mount), or it could use four or five 13 mm mini motors.
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2016, 04:30 PM
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Well...the very first K-36 didn't offer the D13 option, it came after the introduction of th e D13 motor a year later in 1970. And, yes, the C6-3 was the original recommended motor from the get-go on the K-36. I used C6-5 motors a few times in the original K-36 and it was "doable" if you flew on the recommended "calm" days (no weathercocking!) and flew it straight up. BTW...it would also fly just fine if only two C6-3 motors lit up...but, again, straight up and no wind. Don't ask me how I know.

A little C motor history. The only Estes C motor available until 1968 was the C.8-0 (that's C-point 8 dash zero...it was an older non-"metric" motor or a C4 motor in metric terms). The reason that there was only a "booster" version is that up until the introduction of its "metric" motors in 1968, standard motors all used a very thick-walled tube with an inside diameter a bit over 3/8" (.4 or something close, I believe). As such, for a C motor, there was only enough volume in a standard 2.75" long casing for the propellant...no room for a meaningful delay or ejection charge.

In 1968, Estes re-engineered ALL of its motors when the metric system was adopted for motors. Most used a casing with a .5" inside diameter (some motors like the "S" series and lower thrust motors like the A5 still used the thick-wall casing). Instantly, more room was gained for propellant AND delay/ejection charge for the C motors. The larger inside diameter also made for higher average thrust across all impulses. Additionally, Estes redesigned the nozzle from the curved "fluted" fireworks-like design which was WAY overexpanded to the more efficient angular design with about a 2:1 exit-to-throat ratio more suited to the propellant composition and approximate 100 psi operating pressure of the motor.

...I love the old days.
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