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  #1  
Old 07-05-2020, 03:02 PM
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eljefe eljefe is offline
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Default Time to stop buying Estes?

This post is intended as a public policy discussion on a topic that has increasingly bothered me as the pandemic drags on. I'll say up front I've always been a big fan of Estes products, which have accounted for 95% of my rocketry purchases. I've also been impressed with the new ownership and product line released over the past several months.

However, I believe I can no longer purchase Estes products given current circumstances. Most if not all current Estes products are manufactured in China. The way China mishandled the coronavirus outbreak, assisted its spread around the world, and inflicted economic damage on other countries deserves to be punished. When I have any choice in the matter, I don't believe I can in good conscience buy any products made in China. The Chinese Communist Party needs to feel pain for its actions.

While I realize returning production to the US may not be realistic, I encourage Estes and other companies to look for other locations to move their manufacturing. If Estes were to announce a plan to transition production elsewhere, I would gladly continue buying current kits and motors, even if made in China, to continue supporting the brand during the changeover. Until then, I intend to vote with my wallet and end my relationship with the company.

Am I the only one who feels this way?
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2020, 06:17 PM
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mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
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I couldn't agree with you more. I am in Canada, but the coronavirus thing has impacted us here too, and the communist government in China (which I consider to be a bunch of thugs) needs to be held accountable for their role in the spread around the world. I have no problem with Chinese PEOPLE, but the communist government there is running roughshod over more and more people (South China Sea comes to mind) as the country gets more powerful (read RICH). So it's not just about rocketry..........I won't buy a TV or anything else made in China. I'm sure a stalwart ally (South Korea) would love to have the business.

Oh and BTW, kudos to the US Navy for sailing an aircraft carrier through the South China Sea right now, which is their perfect right to do.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2020, 06:55 PM
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BEC BEC is offline
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Note that Estes motors are made in Penrose, Colorado as they always have been since Vern moved the first Mabel machine from Denver to Penrose many moons ago. And the body tubes in Estes kits are still made by the same US supplier as they always have been (yes, they send the tubes to China).

Punishing Estes Industries for a production arrangement that’s been in place for over 20 years (and three sets of owners) at least seems like a poor way to provide any retribution to the Chinese government.

I have very mixed feelings about the rest of this (especially with respect to the virus) and will likely not be saying any more in this thread. But I’m not going to take it out on the folks in Penrose. This does not preclude other changes in purchasing habits and such, however.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2020, 07:23 PM
Vanel Vanel is offline
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A few points if I may:

1) China has committed atrocities for decades - religious persecutions, massacres of their own people, etc. I find it interesting that many people now wish that government to feel pain, because they <probably> withheld information. Did they encourage the spread? They withheld information, but there is zero confirmed intelligence they actively exported the virus. As far as economic damage, that was the choice of the governments of the affected countries - lives over money. If it was a Communist plot, it was a dumb one, because China too has suffered major economic damage.

2) Estes is the backbone of the LPR part of our hobby. If everyone embargoes them, they go under and our hobby is dealt a serious - if not mortal - blow. As has been mentioned, it is highly unlikely they could move production back to the U.S. - probably could not stay in business unless they greatly increased prices, which would kill them. I do not understand punishing an American company because they chose a path that enabled them to make a profit. That’s capitalism, right? Something we support?

China is horrible, but if I were to stop buying products made there I would have done so many moons ago. To me, the withholding of information about the pandemic is not near as bad as killing protestors or people of faith. Evil is evil, even if it does not touch our shores.

So I continue to do business with Estes. I do so because they are an American company that makes fine products, and because I believe that capitalism is better than communism. Hurting them is not going to going to impact China in the slightest.
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2020, 09:03 PM
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Royatl Royatl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefe
This post is intended as a public policy discussion on a topic that has increasingly bothered me as the pandemic drags on. I'll say up front I've always been a big fan of Estes products, which have accounted for 95% of my rocketry purchases. I've also been impressed with the new ownership and product line released over the past several months.

However, I believe I can no longer purchase Estes products given current circumstances. Most if not all current Estes products are manufactured in China. The way China mishandled the coronavirus outbreak, assisted its spread around the world, and inflicted economic damage on other countries deserves to be punished. When I have any choice in the matter, I don't believe I can in good conscience buy any products made in China. The Chinese Communist Party needs to feel pain for its actions.

While I realize returning production to the US may not be realistic, I encourage Estes and other companies to look for other locations to move their manufacturing. If Estes were to announce a plan to transition production elsewhere, I would gladly continue buying current kits and motors, even if made in China, to continue supporting the brand during the changeover. Until then, I intend to vote with my wallet and end my relationship with the company.

Am I the only one who feels this way?


I'm sure others feel that way, but a boycott on estes would be the wrong response. I could use harsher words, but I won't.

BEC has explained what Estes does make here or buys from suppliers here. China does everything else, and so much cheaper. Would you be willing to pay at least $10-20 more on average per kit? That said, I know that John, Ellis, and Bill would love to move production back to the US if it were practical and cost efficient. A few years ago I worked in the custom made furniture industry, where our products were made in Indonesia. there are some significant restraints in time and quantity. Minimum six weeks 'on the water'. Minimum order is the volume of a shipping container (we offered significant discounts to customers if they ordered a half-container or a full container worth of furniture). Communication about designs and problems was difficult, but it was otherwise SOOOO cheap.

If you're willing to boycott Estes, you'd have to be willing to boycott just about everything else that you buy. Everything has some portion made in China. And as someone else said, You're just *now* seeing a problem with the way China operates? China is communist in name only. It is a hodge-podge of authoritarian capitalism *and* socialism. Very little democracy or republicanism.
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  #6  
Old 07-05-2020, 11:29 PM
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astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanel

1) China has committed atrocities for decades - religious persecutions, massacres of their own people, etc.

That's why I've been boycotting Made in China for a long time. I can't say that I am a perfect boycotter, but I do boycott all food from PRC, and any item I can find a US or other country made product.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Without Estes, this hobby of ours would be gone in a short time. Estes is still part US-made. Plenty of other stuff to boycott.
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2020, 05:30 AM
Bill S Bill S is offline
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Could we encourage them to move production/assembly to another Asian country then? That way they would still get to utilize the extremely cheap labor, but deny the Chinese the income? How about Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan? I can certainly justfy a slight price increase if necessary.

I've been trying to boycott Chinese products for years, and boy is it a difficult hassle. But given a choice between Chinese products and somewhere else, I'll take the somewhere else hands down.
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2020, 05:34 AM
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mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
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To clarify my comments above, I have no interest in hurting Estes or model rocketry. I espouse hurting the economy of Communist China and, in so doing, reducing the power and influence of that state. And to that end, yes, it would be great if Estes could move their business elsewhere. And I'm convinced that with some effort on their part it could be done. South Korea is a very high-tech country and would probably be a good place to start. But there are a number of other democratic Asian countries that could conceivably be quality low-cost suppliers. The initiative would have to be with Estes. Is that gonna happen? Probably not anytime soon. Still, who knows? With tariffs in place, the business could end up in, for example, India.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2020, 08:14 AM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefe
This post is intended as a public policy discussion on a topic that has increasingly bothered me as the pandemic drags on. I'll say up front I've always been a big fan of Estes products, which have accounted for 95% of my rocketry purchases. I've also been impressed with the new ownership and product line released over the past several months.

However, I believe I can no longer purchase Estes products given current circumstances. Most if not all current Estes products are manufactured in China. The way China mishandled the coronavirus outbreak, assisted its spread around the world, and inflicted economic damage on other countries deserves to be punished. When I have any choice in the matter, I don't believe I can in good conscience buy any products made in China. The Chinese Communist Party needs to feel pain for its actions.

While I realize returning production to the US may not be realistic, I encourage Estes and other companies to look for other locations to move their manufacturing. If Estes were to announce a plan to transition production elsewhere, I would gladly continue buying current kits and motors, even if made in China, to continue supporting the brand during the changeover. Until then, I intend to vote with my wallet and end my relationship with the company.

Am I the only one who feels this way?


Oh, goody! Politics!
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2020, 10:04 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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+1 to what Bill just said above...
Let's not go there and violate what Steve does NOT want to see here.
I will however say I'm very glad Estes has continued to produce all motors in the USA.
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