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Old 09-20-2010, 05:07 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Default "Bastille" fins?

Hello Doctor,

I have a vocabulary question. The Centuri Sky Devil kit (see: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/centu...10/cenKB-10.pdf ) had several different fin planform options. One of the fin shapes (the one shown on the kit card, on the front of the instructions, and in the catalog illustrations) is called the "Bastille." It looks like the "trailing delta" fin type that is used on the plastic fin units of fireworks missiles. (The old "Dirty Bird III" model rocket plan used one of these fireworks missile fin units.)

I'm curious as to why this fin shape is called the Bastille style. It has nothing (as far as I know) to do with the famous fortress-prison of that name that once existed in Paris. (The word means "bastion" or "castle" in English.) Calling this fin shape "Bastille" seems as odd as calling the F-104 Starfighter's trapezoidal wing planform a "Lincolnshire style" wing planform would be if it was called that.

Many thanks in advance to you and/or anyone who can shed light on this!
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Last edited by blackshire : 09-20-2010 at 05:09 AM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:09 PM
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Peculiar at best. I suppose it could have been simple artistic licence; I mean there is also the "Cobra" fin shape. Perhaps Jay can cleave into the issue?

As an ego stroke, I believe that your reference is the only one currently searchable on the entire WWW for "Bastille Fins". Well, until now.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:14 PM
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Interesting pick up....

When I hear the word "Bastille", one of the first things that comes to mind is French architecture. When I think of French architecture, one of the first things that comes to mind are flying buttresses.

To me, these "Bastille" fins look like the flying buttresses found on old European cathedrals. Doesn't sound too cool to call them "flying buttress fins", so....

...intentional word/image association on the part of the designer?

Later,
EV
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoVictor
Interesting pick up....

When I hear the word "Bastille", one of the first things that comes to mind is French architecture. When I think of French architecture, one of the first things that comes to mind are flying buttresses.

To me, these "Bastille" fins look like the flying buttresses found on old European cathedrals. Doesn't sound too cool to call them "flying buttress fins", so....

...intentional word/image association on the part of the designer?

Later,
EV



I think that's it. If you look up the definition of "flying buttress" you get

"The flying buttress is a masonry arch extending off the outside of a building, often along the length of the nave of a cathedral, which transfers the thrust of the roof outwards and down to a pier. "

Of course, if this were to be accurately applied to a rocket, the root would be up near the nose cone, and the fins would extend all the way down to the bottom of the rocket, but not much more.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding58
Peculiar at best. I suppose it could have been simple artistic licence; I mean there is also the "Cobra" fin shape. Perhaps Jay can cleave into the issue?
The "Cobra" fin shape might have been named after a well-known (at the time) model rocket (perhaps a contest winner), as the Sky Devil's "Aerobee-Hi" fin shape was named for the famous sounding rocket type that had fins of that same planform shape.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding58
As an ego stroke, I believe that your reference is the only one currently searchable on the entire WWW for "Bastille Fins". Well, until now.
Thank you, but being a philologist at heart, I'd rather be educated on this topic than have the "bragging rights." :-)
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Last edited by blackshire : 09-20-2010 at 03:56 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
I think that's it. If you look up the definition of "flying buttress" you get

"The flying buttress is a masonry arch extending off the outside of a building, often along the length of the nave of a cathedral, which transfers the thrust of the roof outwards and down to a pier. "

Of course, if this were to be accurately applied to a rocket, the root would be up near the nose cone, and the fins would extend all the way down to the bottom of the rocket, but not much more.
EchoVictor's posting (and your definition) sound right, although most of the cathedral flying buttresses I've seen photographs of looked more like the Semroc Triton's fins. :-) Seriously though, older castles (bastions ["bastilles"]) could very well have (or have had) flying buttresses that look/looked like the Sky Devil's Bastille fin planform. Also, the inner curving edges of the Bastille fins resemble another architectural shape that is found inside many cathedrals, and whose name we model rocketeers are familiar with: the ogive.
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Last edited by blackshire : 09-20-2010 at 03:52 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:54 PM
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I swing with the notion of a flying buttress, but why Bastille? That was a relatively typical fortress. It is interesting that GIRD used a similar fin configuration - perhaps not as elegantly curved but functional nonetheless. I have no doubt that CenturiGuy will provide a plausible answer.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding58
I swing with the notion of a flying buttress, but why Bastille? That was a relatively typical fortress. It is interesting that GIRD used a similar fin configuration - perhaps not as elegantly curved but functional nonetheless. I have no doubt that CenturiGuy will provide a plausible answer.
That's what had me scratching my withers about the seemingly "non-sequitor" name for that fin planform shape, because the Bastille in Paris had no flying buttresses or any other architectural features that resembled the fin shape. The fortress/prison was a rectangular box with cylindrical additions on its corners (and possibly in the middle of each of its long walls, too--it's been a while since I've seen illustrations of it). If it evoked an image of any model rocket, it would be (by very loose visual association) the Centuri Groove Tube rather than the Sky Devil.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
That's what had me scratching my withers about the seemingly "non-sequitor" name for that fin planform shape, because the Bastille in Paris had no flying buttresses or any other architectural features that resembled the fin shape. The fortress/prison was a rectangular box with cylindrical additions on its corners (and possibly in the middle of each of its long walls, too--it's been a while since I've seen illustrations of it). If it evoked an image of any model rocket, it would be (by very loose visual association) the Centuri Groove Tube rather than the Sky Devil.


et viola
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Old 09-20-2010, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding58
et viola
Splendide! Whichever bastille (bastion) inspired the name for the Centuri Sky Devil's best-known fin planform, it wasn't "The Bastille" (I won't try to guess if it's "le Bastille" or "la Bastille.") :-)
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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