Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Scale & Sport Scale Rocketry
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-22-2019, 12:40 PM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
Ciderwright
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Burlington, WI
Posts: 633
Default Modeling a Terrier Malemute

I've been thinking of doing a Terrier Malemute for my next sounding rocket. Partly because the Malemute, with the 3:1 ogive nosecone reminds me of a PSII Leviathan (which I have parts for) and partly because I want to name it 'Double Dog Dare'.

Massless Dave (particles with rest mass can't go the speed of light, so EZ2C becomes massless)
has posted lots of great Terrier material, both here and on the Forum That Shall Not Be Named. I think YORF has more scale people, so I'm forking the Ute thread so MarkB can get back to posting Tomahawk variant pictures. Which I'm looking forward to.

I've spent some time holding a micrometer against the computer screen and taking measurements.

Here's the problem I've run into. Terriers, like Nikes, seem to have flown with a number of different fins. And it looks like even with Nike fins sometimes.

Peter Always' drawing of the Terrier Malemute show it in a configuration that seems to appear just once - the first flight. He shows the 3:1 ogive (when seems to get some use, based on other photos). A payload section about 2.5 calibers long - which is the shortest pictured. Other Terrier Malemute and Terrier Improved Malemute (motor 2" longer and improved attachment to the interstage) show payloads 6-8 calibers long. No biggee if I want to model model more than one - just more body tube.

Peter's drawing shows the double wedge profile with a root : tip cord ratio of 3.8, a span of 22.1 inches and a root chord of 24.5 inches. That's clearly the same fins on the RIM-2F and he has the same measurements in the Homing Terrier Refit RIM-2F drawing.
Dave has posted another Terrier fin drawing with a diamond profile, root:tip ratio of 2.5, root chord of 33.5", span of 22 inches. With matching photos. I believe it to be the RIM-2C/BT-3 version.
Going through photos of the Terrier Malemute, I'm measuring root:tip ratios of 2.13. multiple photos with different payloads. And a root:span ratio of 1.2 - measurably different than the 1.1 of the 2F, or the 1.5 of the 2C.

So what the heck fin is it? And how's a modeler to choose?

And thank you for the photos, Dave. Even of I end up redoing my CAD model before I print it, the photos have some nice bolt niche and panel details that the drawings don't.

(also @PeterAlway - thanks for many fine drawings)

Edit: The Malemute development paper shows the short payload and the Terrier 'F' style fins.

(This did get posted over on TORF because YORF blacked out in the middle of typing this.)

I've since found that the Nike Orion fins seems to be a good fit, root:tip, though I'm still working on the span.
__________________
Charles McGonegal
Ciderwright
AEppelTreow Winery & Distillery
Ad Astra Tabernamque!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-22-2019, 06:27 PM
Ez2cDave's Avatar
Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC Area
Posts: 1,743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
I've been thinking of doing a Terrier Malemute for my next sounding rocket. Partly because the Malemute, with the 3:1 ogive nosecone reminds me of a PSII Leviathan (which I have parts for) and partly because I want to name it 'Double Dog Dare'.

Massless Dave (particles with rest mass can't go the speed of light, so EZ2C becomes massless)
has posted lots of great Terrier material, both here and on the Forum That Shall Not Be Named. I think YORF has more scale people, so I'm forking the Ute thread so MarkB can get back to posting Tomahawk variant pictures. Which I'm looking forward to.

I've spent some time holding a micrometer against the computer screen and taking measurements.

Here's the problem I've run into. Terriers, like Nikes, seem to have flown with a number of different fins. And it looks like even with Nike fins sometimes.

Peter Always' drawing of the Terrier Malemute show it in a configuration that seems to appear just once - the first flight. He shows the 3:1 ogive (when seems to get some use, based on other photos). A payload section about 2.5 calibers long - which is the shortest pictured. Other Terrier Malemute and Terrier Improved Malemute (motor 2" longer and improved attachment to the interstage) show payloads 6-8 calibers long. No biggee if I want to model model more than one - just more body tube.

Peter's drawing shows the double wedge profile with a root : tip cord ratio of 3.8, a span of 22.1 inches and a root chord of 24.5 inches. That's clearly the same fins on the RIM-2F and he has the same measurements in the Homing Terrier Refit RIM-2F drawing.
Dave has posted another Terrier fin drawing with a diamond profile, root:tip ratio of 2.5, root chord of 33.5", span of 22 inches. With matching photos. I believe it to be the RIM-2C/BT-3 version.
Going through photos of the Terrier Malemute, I'm measuring root:tip ratios of 2.13. multiple photos with different payloads. And a root:span ratio of 1.2 - measurably different than the 1.1 of the 2F, or the 1.5 of the 2C.

So what the heck fin is it? And how's a modeler to choose?

And thank you for the photos, Dave. Even of I end up redoing my CAD model before I print it, the photos have some nice bolt niche and panel details that the drawings don't.

(also @PeterAlway - thanks for many fine drawings)

Edit: The Malemute development paper shows the short payload and the Terrier 'F' style fins.

(This did get posted over on TORF because YORF blacked out in the middle of typing this.)

I've since found that the Nike Orion fins seems to be a good fit, root:tip, though I'm still working on the span.


Charles,

Something to note . . .

It appears that there is a LOT of "interchangeability" among the Malamute, Oriole, Lynx, and Orion.

Dave F.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-22-2019, 06:59 PM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
Ciderwright
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Burlington, WI
Posts: 633
Default

There does seem to be a lot of tradin' o' the parts among the boosters.
__________________
Charles McGonegal
Ciderwright
AEppelTreow Winery & Distillery
Ad Astra Tabernamque!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-30-2020, 07:33 PM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
Ciderwright
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Burlington, WI
Posts: 633
Default

__________________
Charles McGonegal
Ciderwright
AEppelTreow Winery & Distillery
Ad Astra Tabernamque!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-30-2020, 08:27 PM
Ez2cDave's Avatar
Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC Area
Posts: 1,743
Default

Now, THAT is what I am TALKING about . . . GREAT FLIGHT, Charles !

Dave F.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-31-2020, 07:23 AM
tbzep's Avatar
tbzep tbzep is offline
Dazed and Confused
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 11,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm


That's a beauty of a flight
__________________
I love sanding.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-01-2020, 10:27 AM
Gus's Avatar
Gus Gus is offline
7/21/61
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of Detroit
Posts: 2,223
Default

By the way, this is what a real Terrier fin looks like.

I get the funniest stuff in the mail.

The dog's name, obviously, is "Gus."
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  Terrier.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  1.14 MB  
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-03-2020, 10:55 PM
PeterAlway PeterAlway is offline
Intermediate Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
Here's the problem I've run into. Terriers, like Nikes, seem to have flown with a number of different fins. And it looks like even with Nike fins sometimes.

Peter Always' drawing of the Terrier Malemute show it in a configuration that seems to appear just once - the first flight. He shows the 3:1 ogive (when seems to get some use, based on other photos). A payload section about 2.5 calibers long - which is the shortest pictured. Other Terrier Malemute and Terrier Improved Malemute (motor 2" longer and improved attachment to the interstage) show payloads 6-8 calibers long. No biggee if I want to model model more than one - just more body tube.

Peter's drawing shows the double wedge profile with a root : tip cord ratio of 3.8, a span of 22.1 inches and a root chord of 24.5 inches. That's clearly the same fins on the RIM-2F and he has the same measurements in the Homing Terrier Refit RIM-2F drawing.
Dave has posted another Terrier fin drawing with a diamond profile, root:tip ratio of 2.5, root chord of 33.5", span of 22 inches. With matching photos. I believe it to be the RIM-2C/BT-3 version.
Going through photos of the Terrier Malemute, I'm measuring root:tip ratios of 2.13. multiple photos with different payloads. And a root:span ratio of 1.2 - measurably different than the 1.1 of the 2F, or the 1.5 of the 2C.

So what the heck fin is it? And how's a modeler to choose?


Welcome to my world! Sometimes I can find clues, sometimes I can't. The Terrier-Malemute was a case of finding some data somewhere (I'm guessing someone mailed some bits to me, in this case, but I can't remember who offhand) and drawing up the one version I can draw. Sometimes various components vary all over the map. Sometimes things are pretty standard.

It's a wonder that I can find enough to draw anything.

Peter Alway
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-04-2020, 07:13 AM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
Ciderwright
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Burlington, WI
Posts: 633
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlway
It's a wonder that I can find enough to draw anything.
Peter Alway


Oh, but aren't we all so glad that you do.

I may not have ended up modelling the exact version that you drew. Nor an exact version of anything. But I'm pleased with the result - which is what counts. And she sure does look nice going up.

And now I have this nice Terrier model that's looking for more friends. I feel Terrier Recruits and Black Brants in my future. I've already built a matching scale Talos booster - but pricing motors for it put me in shock. So actually flying a Talos Terrier Recruit or Talos Terrier Black Brant will take some wallet conditioning.
__________________
Charles McGonegal
Ciderwright
AEppelTreow Winery & Distillery
Ad Astra Tabernamque!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-04-2020, 08:29 AM
Ez2cDave's Avatar
Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC Area
Posts: 1,743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlway
Welcome to my world! Sometimes I can find clues, sometimes I can't. The Terrier-Malemute was a case of finding some data somewhere (I'm guessing someone mailed some bits to me, in this case, but I can't remember who offhand) and drawing up the one version I can draw. Sometimes various components vary all over the map. Sometimes things are pretty standard.


Peter Alway


Peter,

Data is "funny" that way . . . Often, the best stuff shows up when you're either not looking for it, or searching for something else, entirely !

Dave F.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:02 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024