Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Work Bench > Vendors
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-30-2021, 08:13 AM
AeroTech's Avatar
AeroTech AeroTech is offline
Manufacturer
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 142
Default AeroTech/Quest at Virtual NARCON 2021

For those who didn't watch the Virtual NARCON 2021 Manufacturers’ Forum last night, here is a link to the AeroTech/Quest/RCS presentation:

http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...sentation. pdf
__________________
For warranty questions & issues please contact Karl at warranty@aerotech-rocketry.com
For customer service questions & issues please contact Jenn at customerservice@aerotech-rocketry.com

AeroTech Consumer Aerospace
Division of RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc.
2113 W 850 N
Cedar City, UT 84721
435-865-7100 (Ph)
435-865-7120 (Fax)
http://www.aerotech-quest.com
http://www.rocketmotorparts.com.com
http://www.specificimpulse.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-30-2021, 08:16 AM
Ltvscout Ltvscout is offline
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 6,474
Default

Great news! Thanks, Gary!
__________________
Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies!
Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-30-2021, 09:14 AM
stefanj stefanj is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Posts: 2,847
Default

Thanks, Gary!

That is genuinely exciting and interesting.

I really, REALLy wish there was a reliable and practical way to stage composite motors. There are so many mid-power projects I'd dig into if that happened.
__________________
NAR #27085 - Oregon Rocketry - SAM
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-30-2021, 04:29 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
rocket dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My Old Kentucky Home
Posts: 1,184
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Thanks, Gary!

That is genuinely exciting and interesting.

I really, REALLy wish there was a reliable and practical way to stage composite motors. There are so many mid-power projects I'd dig into if that happened.


I do too.

surely in the 21st century ATQ can and will figure this out.
__________________
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-30-2021, 06:28 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
rocket dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My Old Kentucky Home
Posts: 1,184
Smile

you know I may have just figured this out,. Attached is a drawing I made back in 2005 when I was pondering how to stage composite motors... It's a total rough draft but bear with me.

Composite Motors 101:

As we all know when you ignite a composite motor you also ignite the delay train at the top of the core. This delay has 2 functions:

1. act as a delay train and
2. act as a pressure seal

So the delay train can only be so thin as to contain the combustion chamber pressure and ie you get thrust in return.

so the delays equal the burn time of the motor in question along with the actual delay time. Looking at ATQ's Master Motor listing I notice that only a handful of motors have a 3 sec delay while the biggest number of engines have a 4 sec delay.

this tells me this is the minimum delay time length that can be used by these motors is on the order of 2 to 3 sec max. this also defines the minimum length of the delay train that can contain the chamber pressure.


so if you look at my drawing here's how I would ignite an upper stage motor.

notice that you have a tube that goes through the middle of the delay train...... this tube could be made out of whatever material that might be suitable. this tube would have a faster burning delay train in it than is currently used. the length of the tube and it's diameter would determine it's burn rate.

The actual delay train in the boost engine could be removed entirely and replaced with a circular plug in place of the actual delay train which would hold in the pressure.

But the small diameter delay train would be ignited when the boosted stage engine is ignited at it's top as usual.

The small diameter tube would basically be a composite igniter and it would burn hot enough to ignite the upper stage propellant/delay train as would an electrical igniter.

The question is what composite propellant to use in this composite engine igniter.
It would have to adhere to the sum of the engine burn time plus maybe 1/2 second.... so it would have to be a fast burning composite, perhaps warp 9 or a derivative of this.

Another question is: what do you make the composite igniter tube of? Something strong enough to contain the composite delay train burning pressure but also would be incinerated upon the upper stage igniting and not clogging up the nozzle....... so maybe some kind of coating instead of a physical tube.

Now, this design technique would work on RMS but then there's a question of how you would implement this on single-use motors. I'm sure using this idea as a baseline that something could be worked out.

I will expect royalties if this idea works.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  mr_24-40.jpg
Views: 62
Size:  302.5 KB  
__________________
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-30-2021, 06:57 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 624
Default

Or just do it with electronic staging 😉
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-31-2021, 07:04 PM
olDave olDave is offline
Craftsman
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 174
Default Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
Or just do it with electronic staging 😉


Not everyone wants to mess with adding electronics, electronic bays, batteries, external controls and switches, testing and arming modes, and all the rest. Many of us enjoy the simplicity of old-fashioned pyrotechnic staging.
__________________
NAR 20602
used to be "powderburner" in another life
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-31-2021, 07:46 PM
ghrocketman's Avatar
ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
President, MAYHEM AGITATORS, Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nunya Bizznuss, Michigan
Posts: 13,443
Default

+1000 to what olDave just said above.
A LOT of us have no desire to mess with any electronics whatsoever for staging, ejection, or anything else in their hobby rocketry. An altimeter is about the max electronics that I deal with.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-31-2021, 07:49 PM
tdracer's Avatar
tdracer tdracer is offline
Scale Modeler Extrodinare
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 398
Default

Perhaps someone from Aerotech can chime in, but I successfully drilled an F40-4W down to less than a second delay from burnout - story here:
https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=18716
In short, staged a composite F40W to a BP F15-6 on an Estes Mammoth, using the F40W ejection charge to light the F15. Worked like a charm. My intent was for the ejection charge to fire less than a second after burnout - which is just what happened.

My concern with doing that AP to AP is that AP is far harder to ignite than BP - I don't think 4F black powder will reliably ignite AP. Perhaps if some small bits of AP propellant were added to the BP ejection charge?
I'd certainly do some ground testing before I tried flying it...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-01-2021, 08:41 AM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
rocket dinosaur
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: My Old Kentucky Home
Posts: 1,184
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdracer
Perhaps someone from Aerotech can chime in, but I successfully drilled an F40-4W down to less than a second delay from burnout - story here:
https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=18716
In short, staged a composite F40W to a BP F15-6 on an Estes Mammoth, using the F40W ejection charge to light the F15. Worked like a charm. My intent was for the ejection charge to fire less than a second after burnout - which is just what happened.

My concern with doing that AP to AP is that AP is far harder to ignite than BP - I don't think 4F black powder will reliably ignite AP. Perhaps if some small bits of AP propellant were added to the BP ejection charge?
I'd certainly do some ground testing before I tried flying it...


thta's what my idea encompasses....the actual delay would be replaced with a plastic plug that has running down the center a smaller diamter tube that goes up into the throat of the 2nd stage. this smaller diameter tube contains a fast burning composite that is the new delay charge....it should be hot enough to ignite the 2nd stage.
__________________
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024