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  #21  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
There is another possibility, which Quest pioneered. Their largest kits were (and are) designed to use large single-use and reloadable composite motors that they themselves do not produce (and this was ^before^--if memory serves--they merged with Aerotech as part of the overarching company whose three-letter initials [R-something] appear on Quest order invoices).

I haven't bought any Aerotech products in decades, but I believe they and their sister company Industrial Solid Propulsion were bought RocketAdventure and later by RCS, Rocket Motor Components.
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRIJoe
Well, Blackshire why not model the Atlas Agena D that launched mariner 3? You can always tell everyone that under the un-jettisoned shroud, sits Mariner 3!
While no one will ever be sure until someone goes out to examine the Agena D/Mariner 3 vehicle in solar orbit, there were indications that the Agena's "clamshell-split," cone-cylinder fiberglass payload fairing--not just its inner liner--might have collapsed and/or been significantly deformed by the dynamic pressure during ascent through the atmosphere. The fairing--or at least part of it (perhaps one half) definitely failed to jettison, because its extra mass prevented the Agena's Earth escape burn from injecting itself and Mariner 3 into a Mars encounter trajectory; its solar orbit was/is considerably "lower" than Mars' orbit, and:

If that happened with the fairing, an Atlas-Agena D/Mariner 3 model would look pretty "buggered-up," and would--not having a guidance system--probably fly as "well" as it looked. (Some years ago, I saw comments elsewhere online that a Mariner 3 and Mariner 4 "comparative space hardware archaeology" expedition would provide interesting and useful engineering data on how two identical spacecraft--one fully exposed to the space environment [Mariner 4] and one at least partially shielded from it [Mariner 3, still folded up "atop" its Agena D, under a wrecked full or partial payload fairing]--had been affected by the conditions in interplanetary space, including the unfiltered sunlight.)
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
There is another possibility, which Quest pioneered. Their largest kits were (and are) designed to use large single-use and reloadable composite motors that they themselves do not produce (and this was ^before^--if memory serves--they merged with Aerotech as part of the overarching company whose three-letter initials [R-something] appear on Quest order invoices). Estes need not produce any motors--black powder, double-base, or composite propellant--that are more powerful than their E motors. An Estes Super Scale Saturn I, Saturn IB, or Saturn V kit could be designed to use other companies' higher-than-E total impulse motors (such kits could also, depending on their size and weight, use clustered E and/or D motors, just as the 1:100 scale Saturn V kit can use either one D12 or a cluster of three C6 motors).


Estes has only done that once with the re-labeled AeroTech motors. It does not appeared to have been successful.

I can't see the new management of Estes manufacturing any kits that do not fly with THIER motors. After all, the money is in the motor sales.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:36 PM
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Quest planned to release large D, E and F black powder motors for their kits but it didn't work out.

Some pre-production samples of these motors did make it out for several people to test. I believe there may be a thread here on YORF about this.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
Quest planned to release large D, E and F black powder motors for their kits but it didn't work out.

Some pre-production samples of these motors did make it out for several people to test. I believe there may be a thread here on YORF about this.


Bob-

What was the 'fall through' on those motors not making it to market? Was it technical problems, marketing issues, performance issues or other?

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  #26  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
Estes has only done that once with the re-labeled AeroTech motors. It does not appeared to have been successful.

I can't see the new management of Estes manufacturing any kits that do not fly with THIER motors. After all, the money is in the motor sales.
With most kits, yes. But for large, more expensive (and intricate/higher skill level), and lower-unit-sales kits such as a large-scale Saturn IB or Saturn V, designing such a kit for use with other companies' larger motors wouldn't be a rash thing to do. Such large models wouldn't be produced and sold in large numbers (nothing like the Viking, Wizard, Alpha III, etc.), and they might be made and sold in limited quantities only every two to five years or so. Also:

I don't doubt Quest's attempt to develop higher-impulse motors for their larger kits (as your posted picture shows; I particularly remember that big "off-size" D motor that they listed for a time [I don't know if one could have actually bought any, as I never tried to order one]), but they haven't let the non-availability of high-impulse Quest motors kill off their line of big D/E/F motor-powered "Advanced Rocketry Kits," as they're still selling them (see: http://www.questaerospace.com/Advan...06_3443197.aspx ). I know that they can now offer such high-impulse Aerotech motors with those large kits, now that Quest and Aerotech are both part of RCS, but that wasn't always the case.
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quest did sell that stoopyd off-sized 20mm D5 for a while but their E12 and F15 were pure vaporware in the commercial market.
What i said then I'll say again now...we have a need for PORT/CORE burning E and F BP SU motors like the old Mini-MAX Centuri offerings. End-burners...meh.
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  #28  
Old 06-09-2019, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Quest did sell that stoopyd off-sized 20mm D5 for a while but their E12 and F15 were pure vaporware in the commercial market.
What i said then I'll say again now...we have a need for PORT/CORE burning E and F BP SU motors like the old Mini-MAX Centuri offerings. End-burners...meh.
*Tosses head in assent* Yes, and with today's 3D printing technology (which also facilitates precision, fully-automated machining and drilling of work pieces), safety is a non-issue for making B14, C5, and larger port-burning black powder motors. Also, new-production B8 port-burning motors could, like the original ones, be made using the elongated pintle (non-drilled) but otherwise standard pressing method. (If memory serves, the longer B8 pintles sometimes bent--or at least temporarily deflected under load--resulting in a defective motor, but with today's ready availability of much harder specialty metals [and alloys], stiffer yet spark-free pintles could be made.)
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