#61
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Appreciate it Roy. I didn’t realize while watching the sessions over the weekend that it was as easy as switching to “show past sessions” to immediately view what I missed. I knew that later some would appear on NAR or YouTube but this is great. I just watched the Estes Tour with Bill Stine that I missed Sunday. Fascinating as I have never been on a tour of Estes and Bill Stine had such an interesting session. How about those glass cases in his office or the rooms packed full of stuff that weren’t on the tour!
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#62
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why would anybody want an underpowered B8 or B14.....doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of having either in the 1st place.? The new C5-3 is 1.31 Nsec weaker than the original. The average thrust is 1.35 Nsec less than the original. The old C5 actually was a C5. this new one is C4. The initial thrust spike is almost identical. All of this leads me to believe the culprit is that the BP has a much lower Isp than the 1995 BP did. The old C5 was a 91% C while the new one is a 78% C...... That's a full 13% difference. for avg Thrust: Average Thrust = Favg = (propellant weight flowrate) * Isp [Isp = specific impulse] PS for you that didn't know Estes has used various different BP thruout it's history. For example it started out using DuPont, then Goex, then CIL, KIK, then back to Goex. All BP is not created equal in strength or Isp. the Dupont plant in PA blew up while they where building the current GOEX plant in LA. The GOEX plant is the only BP manufacturing plant in the US. There used to be several but they either blew up or went out of business. CIL is Canadian Industries Limited. KIK is a Slovenia company or was. Your probably wondering how can BP be weaker or stronger? well it depends primarily on the Charcoal that is used in the manufacture of BP. ie the actual tree types the charcoal is made from. For example some people believe the charcoal in GOEX is made from Maple trees. GOEX has never really divulged exactly what trees it does use. But there are hardwood and softwood charcoals and they end up making different strengths of BP. GOEX is actually owned by Hogsdon Power company. I forgot to say that in addition to the actual trees used to make charcoal.....another important step is HOW you make the charcoal from the trees....Depending on the way you "cook" charcoal, ie make it, you can increase the Carbon content, which is what you want, high carbon content charcoal. Poor charcoal and hence poor or low carbon content in the charcoal can result in poor ie weak BP.....
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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them. Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 02-02-2021 at 08:43 AM. |
#63
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As I said to Bill in an email yesterday, this was a great complement to the in-person tour at NARAM-60 a couple of years ago. At that time, the Langfords had been in charge only four months, and Bill had been there only two. This filled out a number of gaps (we didn't go in the machine shop; we could just peer into John Boren's lab, didn't go upstairs into the exec offices (which probably hadn't been moved into anyway); didn't see the west side of the building at all, no darkrooms, no photo/video studio, no big wood USPS doors, and of course, no access at all into engine manufacturing (just what we could see through an open door in one of the Mabel buildings, from outside the compound). the video only showed the output of the starter machine and the casing printer though, where we got to examine the details like the welding of the bridge wire, the shaking of loose casings so they'd end up in the correct orientation for printing.
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Roy nar12605 |
#64
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I believe willow wood is the preferred wood to cook black powder charcoal from. Don't know if it's in short supply, can't be grown fast enough, or what.
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Roy nar12605 |
#65
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it's preferred by pyrotechs in the fireworks industry to make their home grown BP...the problem with it is there are literally 100's of species..... Ian Von Maltitz, in his book, "Black Powder Manufacturing Testing and Optimizing" has 2 very interesting chapters on Charcoal and woods. IVM of course is the current Estes BP guy. I guess, unless he's been replaced or retired by now. In propep3, the propellant design tool, they only offer you 3 choices of charcoal: Carbon (Amorphous), Maple or Oak My favorite is The Role of Charcoal in the combustion of Black Powder 1980...it synthesizes several earlier studies into one and does a comparison/contrast analysis.
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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them. |
#66
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Big disclaimer - I am not an amateur fireworks or pyrotechnics guy, have NO interest in becoming one, and know nothing about the website witchatabuggywhip or the people who own it or provide content (they could be red headed lizard eating tree worshipers from Pluto for all I know). This discussion sent me down the BP and charcoal rabbit hole while I waited to watch SN-9 crash even harder than SN-8 - sure glad that “abrupt” less than nominal landing didn’t take out SN-10! I found an interesting website about the potential differences in BP formulation with burn trough tests of a bunch of different charcoals used in what I assume is amateur made BP: http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...2.html#charcoal http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...coal_tests.html The variation in powders based on what tree the charcoal came from is, at least to me as a thought exercise, fascinating. |
#67
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Scott: check this out:
https://pyrodata.com/chemicals/Charcoal
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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them. |
#68
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These amateur fireworks folks are even bigger data nerds than rocketeers! |
#69
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Wow !
That pyro site has a LOT of info. One would think a company that uses as much BP as Estes could specify how the composition is to be made. I know in my industry (automotive) we specify what we want and the supplier better do it or someone else who will gets the contract. Either that or maybe they should blend their own BP to ensure the isp is "up to spec" instead of just accepting "whatever GOEX give them". I would think Estes would be one of their largest customers and losing the contract would be a big loss of revenue.
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#70
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So, back on topic, Virtual NARCON was a hit as far as I'm concerned. The Estes tour by Bill was a great way to end it, and the last question he answered was a great way to end the Q&A. How many of us eventually get our dream job?
I found it interesting that he still hasn't explored the whole place, stuff keeps turning up. Including a bunch of film, hopefully including the film shown for tours (that I no doubt saw in the early 70s).
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Paul If we weren't all crazy, we would go insane - Jimmy Buffett NAR #87246 www.wooshrocketry.org |
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