Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > Swap Shoppe > For Sale
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-14-2007, 08:11 AM
mojo1986's Avatar
mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
Old Canuck Modeller
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kingston, CANADA
Posts: 2,160
Default

Alan, I have a brother who makes a trip into Toronto just about every Friday. I know he wouldn't have a problem picking up some engines if you could make arrangements at your end. If so, why don't you email me with a list of what you have including quantities and prices expected.

Joe
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-21-2007, 08:30 PM
e-t-rocketeer e-t-rocketeer is offline
AA-ROCKETRY.COM
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Savannah joe-ja
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caheaton
In my opinion, it's a BAD IDEA for anyone to ship rocket motors without the proper paperwork in place. To do otherwise only invites further regulation of the hobby. Suppose some motors were detected in the mail stream (due to a terrorist scare, fire or whatever). The question would be raised "how did they get in there?!" Next thing you know there will be calls for Congress to "do something about this 'problem' " and we will find ourselves with new, more restrictive regulations in place. (Which would only serve to make motors even more expensive and / or difficult to obtain).

So, is it worth the risk of losing your (our) hobby to ship a few motors? Do what I've been doing with my old motors...use them in your rockets! (It's still okay to fly old motors at non NAR events...they can even be flown at NAR events if you join the program they have going on to test the viability of old motors). Besides...these motors were born to fly...not to sit around in a box!

Craig


AGREED! Besides this quote, consider this... black powder get more volatile with age, heat, pressure, and even handling in some cases could produce unwanted effects... That's why it (even new) must go ground, as air shippments are in cargo hulls which are NOT pressurized, so anything in the hull is subjected to extreem pressure fluxuations.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-27-2007, 04:53 AM
Brian L Raney's Avatar
Brian L Raney Brian L Raney is offline
Middle-Age Canadian Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo1986
Canada Post does not permit shipment of rocket motors under ANY circumstances. In fact, Canada Post 'ground' shipment is not really by ground................it is just a lower class of service that has to wait until any other air shipments get on the plane first, then it gets on the plane. There is NO WAY that I would ever ship a model rocket engine out of Canada. It would have to be pick up only.

Joe


Canada Post
6 Dangerous Goods

Dangerous Goods, as defined by the Transportation of Dangerous Goods (Clear Language) Regulations (TDGR), are non-mailable matter, except, if permitted by the TDGR, the mailer of the dangerous goods offers them to Canada Post for transport, and if the Corporation is capable of handling them. Canada Post will not otherwise accept packages that contain dangerous goods or that display dangerous goods symbols.

It is important to note that dangerous goods can be found in everyday items or commodities.

Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations

Special Cases
The following sections, and some of the special provisions included in Schedule 2, Special Provisions, provide an exemption for dangerous goods that are "in transport". Such an exemption extends to handling, offering for transport and to the means of containment used. In section 1.15, for example, a shipping document is not required when the dangerous goods are in transport. Consequently, the consignor would not be required to prepare a shipping document before the dangerous goods are placed in transport.

1.15 Exemption for Personal Use

(1) These Regulations do not apply to dangerous goods in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage, if the dangerous goods
(a) are transported between
(i) a retail outlet and the residence of the purchaser,
(ii) a retail outlet and the purchaser's place of use,
(iii) the residence of the purchaser and a place of use, or
(iv) two residences;
(b) are contained in one or more means of containment each of which has a gross mass less than or equal to 30 kg and is designed, constructed, filled, closed, secured and maintained so that under normal conditions of transport, including handling, there will be no accidental release of dangerous goods that could endanger public safety;
(c) are not for resale or for commercial or industrial use; and
(d) are in a quantity and concentration available to the general public at retail outlets.
Examples of retail outlets are hardware stores, automotive industry stores, pool supply stores and farm co-ops.
( 2) Subsection (1) does not apply to explosives except for
(a) explosives with UN numbers UN0044, UN0070, UN0105, UN0131, UN0173, UN0193, UN0336, UN0337, UN0373, UN0404, UN0432 and UN0454; and
(b) explosives with UN numbers UN0012, UN0014, UN0055, UN0323, and UN0405 if
(i) in the case of cartridges for rifles or pistols, the calibre is less than 50 calibre, or in the case of cartridges for shotguns, the calibre is greater than or equal to 8 gauge, and
(ii) the cartridges are packed in metal clips or in partitions inside boxes that fit snugly in an outside packaging.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to
(a) dangerous goods in a quantity greater than 150 kg gross mass that are in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage; or
(b) radioactive materials that are required to be licensed by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.


Control of Model Rocketry in Canada

Mail

5.5 Normally, regulations made under the Post Office Act prohibit the shipment by mail of any article classified as an explosive, including all fireworks. However, because of the limited hazard, model rocket engines and model rocket kits containing engines up to and including Type D may be shipped under the following conditions and restrictions:

The mailer is required to provide protection of the contents for safe conveyance through the mails. Owing to the characteristics of these items and the treatment they will receive in the mail stream, they will require a high degree of protection to prevent puncture, shock or distortion either to themselves or their container. No item shall be packaged so that its contents may harm personnel or equipment.
  • The engines must be adequately cushioned and isolated by cardboard separators, and no parcel shall weigh more than 11 kg.
  • The outside of the package will be endorsed, either by means of a label, hand stamp or by printing thereon the words “FIREWORKS TYPE D”.
  • Damage to any package containing model rocket engines that has occurred in the mails and that results in the premature ignition of the engines contained shall be reported to the Chief Inspector of Explosives by the receiver of the package.


Sorry for the INFO dump , but as you can see, you are allowed to mail Estes rocket Engines (type A-D inclusive, UN0432 code 1.4S) through Canada Post, providing you follow the Transportation of Dangerous Goods regulations and the Control of Model Rocketry in Canada. The quantity limit is 25 Engines and/or 100 igniters not exceeding 11 kg per package.

Exporting and importing Engines in and out of Canada requires an expensive permit. Commercial courier may deliver all other engine sizes, but they'll certainly charge you extra hazmat fees for the privilege.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-09-2007, 11:46 AM
Capt'n Jim Capt'n Jim is offline
Junior Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default

Here's something I pulled off the internet when I wanted to ship. How does this fit in?

SHIPPING SPORT ROCKET MOTORS
Sport rocket motors contain high-energy propellant and pyrotechnic materials. Because
of this, they are classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) as Òhazardous
materialsÓ (HAZMAT) even though extensive testing has shown that the motors are actually extremely safe and highly resistant to accidental ignition. Shipment of sport rocket motors is subject to detailed Federal regulation, and anyone who ships them without knowing and complying with these regulations is subject to criminal prosecution. This summary of shipping regulations is provided to inform and assist rocketeers who need to get their motors from one place to another. Sport rocket motors are strictly forbidden to be carried or shipped on passenger-carrying aircraft; DO NOT TRY TO FLY ON AN AIRLINE WITH ROCKET MOTORS.

Shipping regulations for all modes of cargo transportation except U.S. Mail are found in
the DOTÕs volume of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which is Part 49, Sections 170
through 173. Sport rocket motors are assigned DOT hazard classifications by the Bureau of
Explosives based on the amount and type of propellant that they contain. The hazard
classification determines what mode of shipping, and method of packaging and labeling, must be used. CFR 49 has very lengthy and exact regulations for packaging and labeling all forms of hazardous materials for shipment.

Sport rocket motors containing more than 62.5 grams of propellant (or reload kits made
up of modules with more than 62.5 grams of propellant each) are classified as a DOT ÒDivision 1.3Ó Explosive. These can only be shipped by commercial motor freight carriers, at significant expense both for the packaging and the shipping.

Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchlorate
composite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category, motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S (Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT.

The main shipping agencies available to consumers in the U.S. are the U.S. Postal
Service (USPS), United Parcel Service (UPS), and Federal Express (FedEx). Neither UPS nor
FedEx will accept HAZMAT for shipment from private individuals. They require that any
shipper of HAZMAT be a commercial entity operating under a Hazardous Materials Contract
Service Agreement with them. As part of this contract, the shipper must certify that their
personnel who do packaging and handling of HAZMAT have completed the biennial HAZMAT
training required by DOT regulations. Commercial HAZMAT shipments via UPS require
payment of a surcharge of $15 for ground transportation or $25 for air transportation, plus
extensive paperwork, and compliance with lengthy and strict packaging and labeling
requirements. With UPS and FedEx generally unavailable for use by private individuals, the
only motor-shipment options for individual rocketeers are USPS or commercial motor carriers.

While some motor carriers may work with individuals, they must still require compliance with the DOTÕs extensive paperwork, packaging, and labeling requirements.
.Shipping regulations for sending sport rocket motors via the U.S. Mail are found in
Postal Publication 52, ÒAcceptance of Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable MatterÓ, Section 341.22a and Appendix 1A. The USPS will accept small sport rocket motors for shipment by individuals, but only under certain limited conditions. First, they will accept only motors that are classified 1.4S/NA0323 (30 grams or less of propellant), and that are packaged and marked appropriately (see below). Second, the shipper must present to their Postmaster a ÒLetter of AuthorizationÓ, addressed to them personally from the USPS Manager of Mail Preparations and Standards (475 LÕEnfant Plaza SW, Washington, DC 20260), which authorizes them to enter these motors into the U.S. Mail. Getting such a letter requires 30-60 days, and requires the consumer to provide specific information about the motors that he plans to ship, including a dimensioned drawing and a Material Safety Data Sheet for each motor type. Once it is issued, the letter of authorization is valid only for 1 year. Estes, Quest, and Aerotech have provided this technical material to the USPS and have negotiated blanket letters for themselves and their distributors. They have to provide a complete list of all these distributors to the USPS each year in order to maintain this authorization.

USPS requirements for shipping small rocket motors are that the motors be in individual
sealed packaging, well-cushioned from shock inside an outer package; that the outer package be strong and securely sealed fiberboard, no more than 25 pounds in weight; and that the package be marked ÒToy Propellant Devices, Handle With CareÓ and ÒSurface Mail OnlyÓ with no HAZMAT labels. The Surface Mail requirement means that the motors must be shipped by Parcel Post, not Priority Mail or Express Mail. There is no surcharge for sending HAZMAT. If you are willing to go through the effort of getting the letter of authorization, this is the easiest and cheapest way to ship small sport rocket motors.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-09-2007, 03:06 PM
ghrocketman's Avatar
ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
President, MAYHEM AGITATORS, Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nunya Bizznuss, Michigan
Posts: 13,443
Default

Basically what all these regs. say is that it an absolute nuisance for individuals to try to ship rocket motors/ engines and don't even try it.
I have NEVER myself tried to ship rocket motors, and never will unless the hazmat requirements for shipping them even by ground are dropped (not ever likely)....waaaaayyyyy too much hassle.

That being said, several motors have been shipped to me by what I would assume were individuals from another forum that used to auction motors.
All of these were below the 30g/grain and 62.5gr total so were model (not hi-power) rocket engines. I assume they had filled out the proper USPS paperwork....they were labelled ground-only properly on the boxes.

Personally I think the hazmat fees shippers are allowed to charge for various items deemed by DOT as hazardous result in little more than a way for the shippers to pad their profit margin for doing very close to nothing. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the shippers FORCED to take the hazard shipments while DISALLOWING them to pass any charge onto the customer.
They should have to EAT IT out of their profit margin as a COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

Last edited by ghrocketman : 11-29-2007 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 11-09-2007, 03:10 PM
Ltvscout Ltvscout is offline
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 6,474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Basically what all these regs. say is that it an absolute nuisance for individuals to try to ship rocket motors/ engines and don't even try it.

In regards to this I live by the Nike slogan.
__________________
Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies!
Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-09-2007, 03:12 PM
ghrocketman's Avatar
ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
President, MAYHEM AGITATORS, Inc.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nunya Bizznuss, Michigan
Posts: 13,443
Default

Scott,
I like your statement.
I NEVER ship them, but I do not question those that send them to me as the responsibility lies with the shippER, not the one the engines are delivered too.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-27-2007, 08:40 PM
alancantor alancantor is offline
Junior Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 17
Default

How it turned out...

After posting my question about the value of old engines, several people approached me with offers to buy. A few very enterprising collectors offered to send relatives or friends by car to pick up the collection, either in Toronto or nearby.

A deal was struck, and the engines were purchased by a very lucky collector!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:26 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,400
Default

What about crossing back into the US? I hope that the border agents don't hassle them.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:10 AM
mojo1986's Avatar
mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
Old Canuck Modeller
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kingston, CANADA
Posts: 2,160
Default

Wow, Brian! Thanks for posting that information! I will be taking a copy of it to the post office if I ever need to ship any engines. After all these years of being told by postal authorities that black powder rocket engines could not be shipped through the mails under ANY circumstances, it turns out that there is a way to legally ship them within Canada! What's most amazing about this is that for once Canadian regulations are LESS stringent than those in the US. Very cool!

Joe
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024