#21
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Alan, I have a brother who makes a trip into Toronto just about every Friday. I know he wouldn't have a problem picking up some engines if you could make arrangements at your end. If so, why don't you email me with a list of what you have including quantities and prices expected.
Joe |
#22
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Quote:
AGREED! Besides this quote, consider this... black powder get more volatile with age, heat, pressure, and even handling in some cases could produce unwanted effects... That's why it (even new) must go ground, as air shippments are in cargo hulls which are NOT pressurized, so anything in the hull is subjected to extreem pressure fluxuations. |
#23
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Quote:
Canada Post
6 Dangerous Goods Dangerous Goods, as defined by the Transportation of Dangerous Goods (Clear Language) Regulations (TDGR), are non-mailable matter, except, if permitted by the TDGR, the mailer of the dangerous goods offers them to Canada Post for transport, and if the Corporation is capable of handling them. Canada Post will not otherwise accept packages that contain dangerous goods or that display dangerous goods symbols. It is important to note that dangerous goods can be found in everyday items or commodities. Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations Special Cases The following sections, and some of the special provisions included in Schedule 2, Special Provisions, provide an exemption for dangerous goods that are "in transport". Such an exemption extends to handling, offering for transport and to the means of containment used. In section 1.15, for example, a shipping document is not required when the dangerous goods are in transport. Consequently, the consignor would not be required to prepare a shipping document before the dangerous goods are placed in transport. 1.15 Exemption for Personal Use (1) These Regulations do not apply to dangerous goods in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage, if the dangerous goods (a) are transported between(i) a retail outlet and the residence of the purchaser, (b) are contained in one or more means of containment each of which has a gross mass less than or equal to 30 kg and is designed, constructed, filled, closed, secured and maintained so that under normal conditions of transport, including handling, there will be no accidental release of dangerous goods that could endanger public safety; (c) are not for resale or for commercial or industrial use; and (d) are in a quantity and concentration available to the general public at retail outlets.Examples of retail outlets are hardware stores, automotive industry stores, pool supply stores and farm co-ops. ( 2) Subsection (1) does not apply to explosives except for (a) explosives with UN numbers UN0044, UN0070, UN0105, UN0131, UN0173, UN0193, UN0336, UN0337, UN0373, UN0404, UN0432 and UN0454; and (b) explosives with UN numbers UN0012, UN0014, UN0055, UN0323, and UN0405 if(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to(i) in the case of cartridges for rifles or pistols, the calibre is less than 50 calibre, or in the case of cartridges for shotguns, the calibre is greater than or equal to 8 gauge, and (a) dangerous goods in a quantity greater than 150 kg gross mass that are in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage; or (b) radioactive materials that are required to be licensed by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. Control of Model Rocketry in Canada
5.5 Normally, regulations made under the Post Office Act prohibit the shipment by mail of any article classified as an explosive, including all fireworks. However, because of the limited hazard, model rocket engines and model rocket kits containing engines up to and including Type D may be shipped under the following conditions and restrictions: The mailer is required to provide protection of the contents for safe conveyance through the mails. Owing to the characteristics of these items and the treatment they will receive in the mail stream, they will require a high degree of protection to prevent puncture, shock or distortion either to themselves or their container. No item shall be packaged so that its contents may harm personnel or equipment.
Sorry for the INFO dump , but as you can see, you are allowed to mail Estes rocket Engines (type A-D inclusive, UN0432 code 1.4S) through Canada Post, providing you follow the Transportation of Dangerous Goods regulations and the Control of Model Rocketry in Canada. The quantity limit is 25 Engines and/or 100 igniters not exceeding 11 kg per package. Exporting and importing Engines in and out of Canada requires an expensive permit. Commercial courier may deliver all other engine sizes, but they'll certainly charge you extra hazmat fees for the privilege. |
#24
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Here's something I pulled off the internet when I wanted to ship. How does this fit in?
SHIPPING SPORT ROCKET MOTORS Sport rocket motors contain high-energy propellant and pyrotechnic materials. Because of this, they are classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) as Òhazardous materialsÓ (HAZMAT) even though extensive testing has shown that the motors are actually extremely safe and highly resistant to accidental ignition. Shipment of sport rocket motors is subject to detailed Federal regulation, and anyone who ships them without knowing and complying with these regulations is subject to criminal prosecution. This summary of shipping regulations is provided to inform and assist rocketeers who need to get their motors from one place to another. Sport rocket motors are strictly forbidden to be carried or shipped on passenger-carrying aircraft; DO NOT TRY TO FLY ON AN AIRLINE WITH ROCKET MOTORS. Shipping regulations for all modes of cargo transportation except U.S. Mail are found in the DOTÕs volume of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which is Part 49, Sections 170 through 173. Sport rocket motors are assigned DOT hazard classifications by the Bureau of Explosives based on the amount and type of propellant that they contain. The hazard classification determines what mode of shipping, and method of packaging and labeling, must be used. CFR 49 has very lengthy and exact regulations for packaging and labeling all forms of hazardous materials for shipment. Sport rocket motors containing more than 62.5 grams of propellant (or reload kits made up of modules with more than 62.5 grams of propellant each) are classified as a DOT ÒDivision 1.3Ó Explosive. These can only be shipped by commercial motor freight carriers, at significant expense both for the packaging and the shipping. Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchlorate composite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category, motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S (Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT. The main shipping agencies available to consumers in the U.S. are the U.S. Postal Service (USPS), United Parcel Service (UPS), and Federal Express (FedEx). Neither UPS nor FedEx will accept HAZMAT for shipment from private individuals. They require that any shipper of HAZMAT be a commercial entity operating under a Hazardous Materials Contract Service Agreement with them. As part of this contract, the shipper must certify that their personnel who do packaging and handling of HAZMAT have completed the biennial HAZMAT training required by DOT regulations. Commercial HAZMAT shipments via UPS require payment of a surcharge of $15 for ground transportation or $25 for air transportation, plus extensive paperwork, and compliance with lengthy and strict packaging and labeling requirements. With UPS and FedEx generally unavailable for use by private individuals, the only motor-shipment options for individual rocketeers are USPS or commercial motor carriers. While some motor carriers may work with individuals, they must still require compliance with the DOTÕs extensive paperwork, packaging, and labeling requirements. .Shipping regulations for sending sport rocket motors via the U.S. Mail are found in Postal Publication 52, ÒAcceptance of Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable MatterÓ, Section 341.22a and Appendix 1A. The USPS will accept small sport rocket motors for shipment by individuals, but only under certain limited conditions. First, they will accept only motors that are classified 1.4S/NA0323 (30 grams or less of propellant), and that are packaged and marked appropriately (see below). Second, the shipper must present to their Postmaster a ÒLetter of AuthorizationÓ, addressed to them personally from the USPS Manager of Mail Preparations and Standards (475 LÕEnfant Plaza SW, Washington, DC 20260), which authorizes them to enter these motors into the U.S. Mail. Getting such a letter requires 30-60 days, and requires the consumer to provide specific information about the motors that he plans to ship, including a dimensioned drawing and a Material Safety Data Sheet for each motor type. Once it is issued, the letter of authorization is valid only for 1 year. Estes, Quest, and Aerotech have provided this technical material to the USPS and have negotiated blanket letters for themselves and their distributors. They have to provide a complete list of all these distributors to the USPS each year in order to maintain this authorization. USPS requirements for shipping small rocket motors are that the motors be in individual sealed packaging, well-cushioned from shock inside an outer package; that the outer package be strong and securely sealed fiberboard, no more than 25 pounds in weight; and that the package be marked ÒToy Propellant Devices, Handle With CareÓ and ÒSurface Mail OnlyÓ with no HAZMAT labels. The Surface Mail requirement means that the motors must be shipped by Parcel Post, not Priority Mail or Express Mail. There is no surcharge for sending HAZMAT. If you are willing to go through the effort of getting the letter of authorization, this is the easiest and cheapest way to ship small sport rocket motors. |
#25
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Basically what all these regs. say is that it an absolute nuisance for individuals to try to ship rocket motors/ engines and don't even try it.
I have NEVER myself tried to ship rocket motors, and never will unless the hazmat requirements for shipping them even by ground are dropped (not ever likely)....waaaaayyyyy too much hassle. That being said, several motors have been shipped to me by what I would assume were individuals from another forum that used to auction motors. All of these were below the 30g/grain and 62.5gr total so were model (not hi-power) rocket engines. I assume they had filled out the proper USPS paperwork....they were labelled ground-only properly on the boxes. Personally I think the hazmat fees shippers are allowed to charge for various items deemed by DOT as hazardous result in little more than a way for the shippers to pad their profit margin for doing very close to nothing. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the shippers FORCED to take the hazard shipments while DISALLOWING them to pass any charge onto the customer. They should have to EAT IT out of their profit margin as a COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!! Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't ! Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY. ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC ! Last edited by ghrocketman : 11-29-2007 at 12:18 PM. |
#26
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Quote:
In regards to this I live by the Nike slogan.
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Scott D. Hansen Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe! Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies! Ye Olde Rocket Forum WOOSH NAR Section #558 |
#27
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Scott,
I like your statement. I NEVER ship them, but I do not question those that send them to me as the responsibility lies with the shippER, not the one the engines are delivered too.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!! Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't ! Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY. ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC ! |
#28
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How it turned out...
After posting my question about the value of old engines, several people approached me with offers to buy. A few very enterprising collectors offered to send relatives or friends by car to pick up the collection, either in Toronto or nearby. A deal was struck, and the engines were purchased by a very lucky collector! |
#29
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What about crossing back into the US? I hope that the border agents don't hassle them.
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#30
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Wow, Brian! Thanks for posting that information! I will be taking a copy of it to the post office if I ever need to ship any engines. After all these years of being told by postal authorities that black powder rocket engines could not be shipped through the mails under ANY circumstances, it turns out that there is a way to legally ship them within Canada! What's most amazing about this is that for once Canadian regulations are LESS stringent than those in the US. Very cool!
Joe |
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