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  #1  
Old 01-13-2007, 12:02 AM
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CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
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Default Items Needed in a Deluxe Starter Set

This thread is meant to focus on the contents of a Deluxe model rocketry starter set, covering topics such as "What kit do we want to see?" and "What type of launch pad should it have?", as well as "What do we want the printed material to include?"

To this point, we have an opinion that as a premium item, such a set would contain a copy of The Handbook, to enlighten the newbie about what model rocketry is, how they can gain more enjoyment from the hobby, and the degree to which they can get involved in the science of the hobby.

It has been suggested that a more robust tripod-style launch pad be included, instead of the low-to-the-ground plastic designs that currently get stuffed into the present-generation of starter sets.

A better, more-reliable launch controller would be in order. To what degree do we need to re-engineer this simple yet important piece of equipment?

What other items should a starter set contain? This is what we need to know. The floor is now open for comment.
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2007, 07:27 PM
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I would suggest a CD version of instructions, with maybe some flash animations of how rockets work etc. Today's kids (and lots of us old folks) are very computer centric.

Check these out, used for airguns but some of the same sort of "style" that I think would be interesting on the CD.
http://www.arld1.com/


The launch controller, make it "ultimately safe" and "cool looking". I'm a huge fan of the retro series and maybe a launch controller that looks retro but yet James Bondish would be "cool.


I think if it's a deluxe kit, then yeah a tripod would be great. Make is something useful, that can accept a variety of rods rods and MAYBE a rail at some point.

I would personally love to see an retro launch tower and rocket at some point.
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  #3  
Old 01-13-2007, 09:16 PM
snaquin snaquin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPMcGraw
This thread is meant to focus on the contents of a Deluxe model rocketry starter set, covering topics such as "What kit do we want to see?" and "What type of launch pad should it have?", as well as "What do we want the printed material to include?"

To this point, we have an opinion that as a premium item, such a set would contain a copy of The Handbook, to enlighten the newbie about what model rocketry is, how they can gain more enjoyment from the hobby, and the degree to which they can get involved in the science of the hobby.


Maybe as a premium item, include The Handbook. In the standard starter set at least a coupon to on online retailer to direct the new rocketeer and let him/her know it exists. It took me a while after I first got started to realize The Handbook was even available to check out of the library. Presently the only two hobby stores in the New Orleans area that have reopened since Hurricane Katrina don't even handle books on rocketry and the local news stand doesn't handle Sport Rocketry. I like the idea Craig Swinson had about putting a CD in the box and I'd like to add a few more suggestions for that. Add links to EMRR on the CD as well as all the Semroc RockSim files and the demo version of RockSim. Put a big label on the box that says free demo version of RockSim design software included with your purchase. Also include an application for the NAR or a link to the NAR website. I think the CD is a great idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPMcGraw
It has been suggested that a more robust tripod-style launch pad be included, instead of the low-to-the-ground plastic designs that currently get stuffed into the present-generation of starter sets.

A better, more-reliable launch controller would be in order. To what degree do we need to re-engineer this simple yet important piece of equipment?

What other items should a starter set contain? This is what we need to know. The floor is now open for comment.


Personally, I like the "design" of the Pratt Hobbies GO BOX.

http://www.pratthobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GO%2D12

Later in the hobby I upgraded my standard Estes launch controllers for the FSI "professional firing panel".

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rock...79/79fsi16.html

It was the same design with the exception that it didn't have a safety key. I never liked that about it and it really doesn't meet safety code without a removable key. It was however a very robust system and I had it for over twenty years and passed it down to a buddy starting in the hobby and he is still using it today. Great system.

I also owned two of the FSI steel pads (also passed down to a friend that is still using them). No larger than the Estes pads but made to last. Perhaps as Craig mentioned have it adaptable to used a larger rod or single rail section. Have a larger hole in the pad to begin with and toss an adapter in the box for 1/8", 3/16" and have the rail have a 1/4" post on the bottom to adapt it directly into the pad.

What do you guys think?

(Saints 27, Philadelphia 24 - Final)

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Last edited by snaquin : 01-13-2007 at 10:22 PM.
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  #4  
Old 01-13-2007, 10:22 PM
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chanstevens chanstevens is offline
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For launch system, assuming we're sticking with low-mid power, you can't beat something like the Estes Command Controller, but with a couple gell cells or rechargables.

A good pad strikes me as something that would cost more than fols would pay for until they've had a few bad pads to appreciate the value. Stuff like easy to set up camera tripods or music stands, modified to accomodate a variety of rod sizes. I bought a nice one 6 years ago for about $80, all stainless steel, packs small and sets up fast, but no way could I see something like that in a starter set.

The CD (or DVD) is a great idea. There's so much out there on the web that you could add value without much cost.
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  #5  
Old 01-13-2007, 10:43 PM
snaquin snaquin is offline
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Default Durable Launch Pads

Thoughts on three launch pads that gave me very good service .....

I don't remember what ever became of my wooden pad. I also don't remember the flight that obviously toasted one of the legs

The FSI pad I mentioned is still launching rockets three decades after I purchased it. The center part that accepted the rod was welded to three small flat steel supports and the supports and legs had holes drilled in them to accommodate three wing nuts to allow adjustment. You could leave two wing nuts tight and leave one only hand tight to allow tilting the pad. A very simple but durable design and it broke down into small pieces for transport. That's not the original blast deflector in the photo. The original hooked onto two of the legs but burned through after a while.

I flew many model rockets off the steel pad and it supported all of my model rockets and mid power rockets through G motors.

It wasn't until high power that I needed something larger than the FSI pad and used a camera tripod for HPR. A small converted camera tripod would work well with model rocketry and I do like the way the legs of the camera tripod collapse for storage.

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Last edited by snaquin : 01-13-2007 at 11:08 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-13-2007, 11:41 PM
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That middle pad looks like a good one. Break it down, store it in the box.

Another thing to consider, what about some "tools" like a fin marking guide, maybe a fin jig fixture as discussed in another thread.

I know it's a long shot but maybe include some stuff that is always listed as "you will also need". Glue, batteries, maybe some paints.

Now I understand some of the issues with shelf life etc, but it could be a cross marketing promotion with Testors, Zap, Energizer etc.

At a local hobby shop they have a beginner kit that's an Estes kit with all the "extras" in a bigger range box for like $49.
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  #7  
Old 01-14-2007, 12:22 PM
rocket_james rocket_james is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
I like the idea Craig Swinson had about putting a CD in the box and I'd like to add a few more suggestions for that. Add links to EMRR on the CD as well as all the Semroc RockSim files and the demo version of RockSim. Put a big label on the box that says free demo version of RockSim design software included with your purchase. Also include an application for the NAR or a link to the NAR website. I think the CD is a great idea.

Ditto!

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
Perhaps as Craig mentioned have it adaptable to used a larger rod or single rail section. Have a larger hole in the pad to begin with and toss an adapter in the box for 1/8", 3/16" and have the rail have a 1/4" post on the bottom to adapt it directly into the pad.

What do you guys think?

I'm all for steel. Plastic is just not durable enough. I always liked rails. These could be set up to handle the launch lugs. The old Estes rails could. I didn't like the internal joiners, external joiners are better. A standard base for the varying sizes of rails should be included in the design to fit into a standard launch pad. A "wing bolt" (don't remember the name of the bolts that have a "wing" on them) could be used to press against the rail to keep it tight in the pad. The rail holder could swivel in the base and be Y-shaped with a stop to allow a maximum 30 degrees from vertical either direction, with a wing bolt keeping the swivel base tight and also allow for horizontal let down when not in launch position - to allow kids to load on their rockets. The pad could have a collapsible center rod (think tent legs here) that allows adjustment to a desired height. This would insert into the base and then the rail base would insert into this.

Basically, the launch pad has a basic steel (or something much more sturdy than the plastic stuff) core that everything attaches too. The rails could be aluminum to save on weight. Legs could be PVC with holes in one end that snapped onto the base (think tent legs again, here) and holes on the other end to allow staking to the ground. The collapsible center rod could be heavy grade aluminum (some of those tent poles are ridiculous). If I could draw, I'd include an example!

Chan mentioned the Command Control Launcher. I'm all for something like that. I'm not in favor of carrying 12-volt car batteries around.
James
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  #8  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:50 PM
snaquin snaquin is offline
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Default Rockets Included In Deluxe Starter Set?

If The Handbook is included as a premium item in the Deluxe model rocket starter set, it won't take long to read enough of the book to figure out that rockets with a special purpose like the ability to fly payloads are a pretty cool idea ......

Just throwing some ideas out here but how about include two or maybe three rockets like the Centuri Arsenal Rocketry Outfit in the Semroc Deluxe set? Centuri had a basic beginners kit (Javelin), a payload kit (Payloader II) and a two stage kit (Arcon-Hi). I'm not saying a Deluxe set *must* have three rockets, but what about two?

The two I have in mind for suggestion would of course have to be Semroc original kits. One large kit (Semroc Vega) and one payload kit (Semroc Lune R-1). A first flight with a B6-4 in the Vega only puts it to about 300'. A first flight with a A8-3 in the Lune R-1 to about 200'. You can include A, B and C motors in the set since with both rockets you could fly the full range.

Another thought. Make a special self adhesive foil printed wrap for payload section of the Lune R-1 to make it special, different from the standard kit sold by Semroc. Something similar to the wrap on the Estes A-20 Demon. The wrap could have a cool Semroc logo and design printed on the foil. A special edition rocket that is only available in the Deluxe model rocket starter set. Just like when Estes offered the Viper as the exclusive rocket for EAC members. Perhaps even design a program similar to the EAC and these two rockets in the Deluxe starter set are the first two designs to progress you through the program onto staged or clustered models.

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  #9  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:03 PM
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CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
If The Handbook is included as a premium item in the Deluxe model rocket starter set, it won't take long to read enough of the book to figure out that rockets with a special purpose like the ability to fly payloads are a pretty cool idea ......


The other printed literature needs to have direct references to the Handbook showing the solutions or answers to several "often-asked" questions, and have illustrations using the parts of the set to show how those "problems" are solved in a real-world environment...

Quote:
Just throwing some ideas out here but how about include two or maybe three rockets like the Centuri Arsenal Rocketry Outfit in the Semroc Deluxe set? Centuri had a basic beginners kit (Javelin), a payload kit (Payloader II) and a two stage kit (Arcon-Hi). I'm not saying a Deluxe set *must* have three rockets, but what about two?


Simplification of this idea -- include the plans and parts list, but let the buyer decide if he/she wants to build it. Just make sure all the required parts needed are included in the set...

Quote:
Another thought. Make a special self adhesive foil printed wrap for payload section of the Lune R-1 to make it special, different from the standard kit sold by Semroc. Something similar to the wrap on the Estes A-20 Demon. The wrap could have a cool Semroc logo and design printed on the foil. A special edition rocket that is only available in the Deluxe model rocket starter set. Just like when Estes offered the Viper as the exclusive rocket for EAC members. Perhaps even design a program similar to the EAC and these two rockets in the Deluxe starter set are the first two designs to progress you through the program onto staged or clustered models.


You can get that special printable self-adhesive foil through Papilio, BTW...
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  #10  
Old 01-21-2007, 06:42 PM
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Default Deluxe Starter Kit

Have you give any thought on the initial cost for the deluxe starter kit? Being labeled a starter kit, I think that you would want to keep it affordable to most newcomers entering into model rocketry. This may limit how fancy of a launch pad and ignition system you could include.

Launch Pad - I think it should be at least 18"-24" off the ground to make it easier to attach the wires to the igniters. It should also have legs that either fold up or that could be disassembled quickly. It should also have the ability to tilt the 30 degrees. It would be nice to have the ability to tilt the rod horizontally for loading rockets. Maybe include a tube with end caps on it to hold a couple of different rods in when they are not in use.

Ignition system - This would depend greatly on whether you plan on using materials that are available stock or if you are planning on making your own custom controller. If going custom, then you would have to see what the available budget is for tooling. If you keep it simple and square, you could probable have a pretty cheap mold made to produce the parts. Would be cool to have one with a key switch along with some toggle switches, buttons and lights (and make it look like something NASA would use.)
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