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  #11  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
I've appreciated Peter's work, and purchased it.

But I'm going to flip the property right question around, and ask the good rocketeers of YORF - if sharing out of print Peter Alway pages is wrong, please explain how Ye Olde Rocket Plans is different.

He got permission.
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  #12  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:40 PM
BARGeezer BARGeezer is offline
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Lots of stuff that people are doing is not legal. That is a matter for their own conscious and ethics. Ranges from downloading torrents of books/films/tv shows, scanlated manga, jaywalking, fudging tips on income taxes, not buckling up, yadda, yadda.
Most of us obey the law. Unfortunately there are a few that do not. If they are caught they should suffer the consequences. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.
BTW a moderator has come down with the hammer on TRF. If the offending party does it again he will be banned. As it should be. Hope the same thing happens here.
As far as old plans on YORP or JimZ's, probably Scott or Jim could best reply with their insights.
There may be mitigating circumstances, IDK.
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:45 PM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
He got permission.


Are you sure?

Quote from the plans page:
We specialize in archiving the plans for some of the lesser-known rocket companies. If you have a gem that has been sitting in your closet or basement for years, why not scan the plans and share it with others?

And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.

The rights to many, most, maybe almost all - of those plans were owned by Carl McLawhorn, and now, Randy Boadway. There are no plans as far as I know for "enforcing" those rights. And we all know what Carl's feeling on this were.

So that's what the difference is.

It's rocketry folks putting Peter's work into a digital format and distributing it, presumably, for other rocketry folks. So let's not pretend that.... oh... gee whiz... the internet is soooo big ..... and like ..... there's nothing at all that we can do about this. This isn't the same as trying to stop child pornography - we're a small community.
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2020, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
Are you sure?

Quote from the plans page:
We specialize in archiving the plans for some of the lesser-known rocket companies. If you have a gem that has been sitting in your closet or basement for years, why not scan the plans and share it with others?

And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.

Yes. For example, we can go all the way back to 2006 when Scott posted that he had finally been given permission by Bill Stine to post OOP Quest kit plans.

https://oldrocketforum.com/showpost...98&postcount=81


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  #16  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:40 PM
aeppel_cpm aeppel_cpm is offline
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Wonderful.

Given that there's an open invitation to contribute, but no obvious 'posted with permission of', I hope you can see that this topic had the -appearance- of being a glass house.

I did scan through a number of the companies, and few of them do have 'rights reserved by...' notices.

So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.
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  #17  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.

Somehow, you're disclosure that "...it's nice..." seems hollow to me, especially right after you attempted to muddy the issue by attacking the old rocket plans. As if the only way that we can help Peter Alway out is if we first must show that we are all pure as the newly driven snow.

Shame on you.
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  #18  
Old 02-12-2020, 07:55 PM
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But I'm going to flip the property right question around, and ask the good rocketeers of YORF - if sharing out of print Peter Alway pages is wrong, please explain how Ye Olde Rocket Plans is different.
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Charles,

Great question. The follow-up question is: to what is Estes/Centuri/Enerjet asserting a IP right? The names? The designs? The illustrations for the instructions?

Here's a fun example:

The Arcas name is not protected, it being the name for the Little Dipper by way of Greek mythology (part of the original werewolf story).

The sounding rocket design itself belonged to the Atlantic Research Corporation which still exists as far as I know. (correction: now part of AeroJet)

I could be wrong but I seem to recall the design for the model was submitted by someone in a Design of the Month contest and cleaned up and turned into a kit, K-26 Arcas.

So what exactly is Estes'es?

And is the IP a copyright, a patent or a trademark?

Obviously, some of the other kits don't have so many problems, but you see what I'm getting at.
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  #19  
Old 02-13-2020, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeppel_cpm
Wonderful.

Given that there's an open invitation to contribute, but no obvious 'posted with permission of', I hope you can see that this topic had the -appearance- of being a glass house.

I did scan through a number of the companies, and few of them do have 'rights reserved by...' notices.

So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.


Spin it. Sure you aren't a politician? Can't stand to be wrong so you splash dirty water on it?

Scott is a stand up guy. He pays for this forum out of his own pocket. He's helped the hobby and all that come here. Estes Industries has a big presence here. You can bet your apple cider that they would come down on him if he didn't have permission. Please stop deflecting an obvious wrong by pointing fingers at others. That's elementary school playground tactics.



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  #20  
Old 02-13-2020, 08:06 AM
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Aren't the bulk of these old plans abandoned copyrights?
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