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  #21  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
Ah - so there IS one on the core - just not visible in that first photo!

Possibly, but I've seen some shots without one on the core and some with no cans on any of the boosters, like the one George posted.
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:45 PM
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It plugs in to one of these service modules (no clue to the actual name for it). I'm not sure if the crumpled one at the bottom is identical to the one in good condition. It seems to be placed a tad closer to the front edge of that subsection, but it could look that way due to crumpling.

https://img.17qq.com/images/npmdmlc...refresh26966549


I'm almost tempted to think the can could be a filter for stuff going into the boosters, like moisture filters on airbrushes. However, the hose on the bottom of the can doesn't seem to have any fittings to attach to anything, so I've abandoned that idea.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:50 PM
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Maybe we’re over thinking this (yeah I know, hard to believe). Maybe the buckets are just for putting “Remove Before Flight” items into after they’re removed.

OR

Maybe they’re part of the LES system—just in case they have to “bail”.
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2021, 03:53 PM
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The buckets contain sand and a really big plastic scoop.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2021, 04:00 PM
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It's a BIG BUKKET of something alright....
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  #26  
Old 04-09-2021, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
The US program's most famous (easily visible) verniers were on the Atlas, but also on the Thor. They were used to control roll because the main engine could only control pitch and yaw. The Soyuz verniers control everything.


Interestingly, on the Atlas, the verniers really were "verniers", for fine adjustment. The Atlas shut down the main engine a tiny bit early, before the intended final velocity was achieved. So the verniers kept firing to achieve exactly the velocity desired ot hit the target.

So, yeah, when I called those "small gimbaled engines" on the Soyuz verniers.....that was not being precise because they only serve for steering, not final velocity control. It is something many of us are familiar with from the Altas heritage.

Actually.....come to think of it..... it *IS* possible that for the original single stage (OK, stage-and-a-half) R-7 Semyorka ICBM version, the center core stage could have shut down the main 4-engine chambered engine first, and kept the little ones going as precision velocity verniers. But, I think that those little steering engines used the same main turbopump as the main engine, in which case that would not have allowed them to be used that way. No time to look it up but I'm more than 90% sure it was all or nothing (all running or none running).
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  #27  
Old 04-09-2021, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
Interestingly, on the Atlas, the verniers really were "verniers", for fine adjustment. The Atlas shut down the main engine a tiny bit early, before the intended final velocity was achieved. So the verniers kept firing to achieve exactly the velocity desired ot hit the target.

So, yeah, when I called those "small gimbaled engines" on the Soyuz verniers.....that was not being precise because they only serve for steering, not final velocity control. It is something many of us are familiar with from the Altas heritage.

Actually.....come to think of it..... it *IS* possible that for the original single stage (OK, stage-and-a-half) R-7 Semyorka ICBM version, the center core stage could have shut down the main 4-engine chambered engine first, and kept the little ones going as precision velocity verniers. But, I think that those little steering engines used the same main turbopump as the main engine, in which case that would not have allowed them to be used that way. No time to look it up but I'm more than 90% sure it was all or nothing (all running or none running).


China did this too for the CZ-2-series space launchers. The second stage uses a single, large, fixed engine and a four-chamber Vernier engine, on which the nozzles are hinged. The main engine shuts down early and the verniers continue firing to fine tune the orbit insertion. No doubt the same is done on the CSS-4 ICBM (same set up), where careful release of the RV enhances accuracy.
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  #28  
Old 04-09-2021, 07:02 PM
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BTW- the Atlas verniers WERE gimbaled for pitch/yaw/roll control. They had to be, because after the main engine shut down before final velocity, and the verniers kept firing to achieve the desired velocity, they had to control all three axes.

Also, the Atlas' outer two "booster" motors, did gimbal. So they provided the primary steering control for the Atlas until later in the launch when the two outer booster engines and the tail section they were mounted to dropped away (by that point the Altas had used up enough fuel that it could fly the rest of the way using just the non-gimbaled center engine's thrust). It is interesting that in old footage of Atlas launches, you could often see the Verniers gimbal many degrees for a moment during launch.

Here's a link about the Atlas Verniers, there's more info out there for however much one wants to google.

http://heroicrelics.org/info/lr-101/lr-101.html

BTW - as for the red "buckets", I didn't say it outright, but now I will. I'm pretty sure those were removed before flight. I am curious as to what purpose they do serve , though not enough to go on a deep dive to google or go on a group on say NasaSpaceFlight Forum to ask....the OP could just as easily do that.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2021, 10:34 AM
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George - nobody is saying a Vernier CAN'T gimbal - just that the ones on Soyuz and Long March do not, they are hinged.

We established the "remove before flight" status several posts ago. TBZEP pointed out the color (red = remove), and the handles are also a dead giveaway! JeffyJeep agreed too. Then TBZEP found the mounting right on the core nozzles. No way you fly with something mounted there!

As for what the heck they are - a desiccant is another possibility. If that were the case, however, you'd expect to see them in Kourou too.
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  #30  
Old 04-11-2021, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
What are the buckets for on the outboard boosters?
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/...e8182e15_o.jpeg


Seems to be something for when the rocket is horizontal on the transporter/railway car. They may get detached before the rocket flies. (hey, sorry for being obvious, but I just got here)
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