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  #11  
Old 09-04-2021, 09:50 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Whatever is typically used to destroy a launch vehicle would be strictly controlled by ME in the vehicle UNLESS said RSO or launch facility would be repaying all costs of said destroyed vehicle.
No BUXX $$, no finger on trigger to destruct.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2021, 11:55 AM
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georgegassaway georgegassaway is offline
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Whoever OWNS the range decides whose finger is on the destruct button. If you do not like their terms, then you don’t contract to fly there.

And if it is a totally “private” launch site, they still haven’t have a means of aborting the flight to keep it from getting away from the exclusion zone (or else BIG trouble with the FAA).

The rocket was doomed anyway, and would have ended up outside the exclusion zone if not destroyed before then.

Enough of the fake bravado. B.S.
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  #13  
Old 09-05-2021, 03:31 PM
frognbuff frognbuff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
Whoever OWNS the range decides whose finger is on the destruct button. If you do not like their terms, then you don’t contract to fly there.

And if it is a totally “private” launch site, they still haven’t have a means of aborting the flight to keep it from getting away from the exclusion zone (or else BIG trouble with the FAA).

The rocket was doomed anyway, and would have ended up outside the exclusion zone if not destroyed before then.

Enough of the fake bravado. B.S.


Tip o' the hat! Well said.
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  #14  
Old 09-07-2021, 02:22 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Whatever is typically used to destroy a launch vehicle would be strictly controlled by ME in the vehicle UNLESS said RSO or launch facility would be repaying all costs of said destroyed vehicle.
No BUXX $$, no finger on trigger to destruct.
Japan's (JAXA's) Epsilon solid propellant launch vehicle (its first stage is the same motor that serves as the H-IIA's two or four large strap-on boosters) decides *itself* whether or not it is flying in a safe manner, and activates its FTS (Flight Termination System)--or not--depending on what the guidance computer perceives; I don't know if JAXA has flown an Epsilon in "self-deciding mode" yet. Also:

Astra's small "Rocket 3.X" kerolox launch vehicle is apparently small enough to not need a FTS, as with the Aerobee vehicles; radio-commanded engine(s) cutoff is all that Astra uses. In its two in-flight failures, both during first stage powered flight (they *almost* achieved orbital velocity with the second try last December [which they weren't really expecting to do--both stages and the fairing separation tests succeeded], so it wasn't a failure), the five Delphin first stage engines were merely shut down, to ensure that both vehicles fell in designated safe-impact zones.
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  #15  
Old 09-07-2021, 02:43 AM
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The coverage of the Firefly Alpha launch showed something unusual--at least to me, but first:

Scott Manley said, in his accident analysis video (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erXrnvyuhJs ), that SLC-2 (an old Thor IRBM [and Thor-based launch vehicles, such as the Delta and Delta II, and other USAF Thor-based orbital rocket] launch complex) doesn't have good cell coverage around it, which was why "Everyday Astronaut" Tim Dodd's video stream, provided by Firefly Aerospace (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HfHAazNM3Q&t=3584s ), wasn't the best. Something I saw in Tim's video before the launch looked unusual, and I wonder if anyone here might know what it was, and was for:

I noticed that just a few individual lights--and only those--on the floodlight arrays (atop the towers near the launch pad; these light towers are similar to those used at many outdoor football and baseball stadiums) were lit up green (so were two lights on the rocket's strongback), and they seemed to be flickering in a non-random way. Were those lights transmitting digital data of some kind, and if so, concerning what? (The Saturn V IU--Instrument Unit--had an optical sensor, with a mirror, that looked out to "see" a light beam directed at it before launch, from near the pad; this was used to update or calibrate [by cross-checking] the IU's position prior to launch, which is vital to inertial guidance systems--might the green lights at SLC-2 served the same purpose?)
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2021, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
Whoever OWNS the range decides whose finger is on the destruct button. If you do not like their terms, then you don’t contract to fly there.

And if it is a totally “private” launch site, they still haven’t have a means of aborting the flight to keep it from getting away from the exclusion zone (or else BIG trouble with the FAA).

The rocket was doomed anyway, and would have ended up outside the exclusion zone if not destroyed before then.

Enough of the fake bravado. B.S.
Only a range in a place like Iran or North Korea (or maybe Red China [particularly at their old Gobi desert site], if the fee/bribe from a range user was high enough) would allow a suborbital or orbital launch to be conducted with such "relaxed" (lax) range safety standards. And really, would any Western start-up *want* to launch from such a place, even if they could get around the State Department and the MTCR & ITAR regulations? (Sweden once had a satellite launched aboard a Long March at the Gobi desert site, and the Swedish crew was surprised at the low safety standards; one picture they brought back, taken during early morning fueling of the rocket by the Chinese launch crew [in which a long, ominously-dark, opaque reddish-brown cloud can be seen] had the caption: "Yes, that is nitrogen tetroxide." (!) )
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2021, 06:29 AM
frognbuff frognbuff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Japan's (JAXA's) Epsilon solid propellant launch vehicle (its first stage is the same motor that serves as the H-IIA's two or four large strap-on boosters) decides *itself* whether or not it is flying in a safe manner, and activates its FTS (Flight Termination System)--or not--depending on what the guidance computer perceives; I don't know if JAXA has flown an Epsilon in "self-deciding mode" yet. Also:

Astra's small "Rocket 3.X" kerolox launch vehicle is apparently small enough to not need a FTS, as with the Aerobee vehicles; radio-commanded engine(s) cutoff is all that Astra uses. In its two in-flight failures, both during first stage powered flight (they *almost* achieved orbital velocity with the second try last December [which they weren't really expecting to do--both stages and the fairing separation tests succeeded], so it wasn't a failure), the five Delphin first stage engines were merely shut down, to ensure that both vehicles fell in designated safe-impact zones.


It's called an Automated Flight Safety System (AFSS) and it's a requirement on US EELV-class vehicles too. Must be in service by 2025 or so. SpaceX uses one now. No need to look to Japan.

If Astra got away with having no destruct charges, it's because they flew from the bogus range at Kodiak. I say "bogus" because the user has to bring most if not all of their own Range equipment. Further, commanded engine shutdown IS a Flight Termination System. At the Cape or Vandenberg, an "ARM" command from the Range, despite its innocuous sounding name, shuts down all liquid-propellant engines and prevents all future staging events. The vehicle is then free to fall to the ocean (after all, the flight is TERMINATED). Or, they can also send the "DESTRUCT" command, and that one is self-explanatory.
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2021, 07:50 AM
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Gus Gus is offline
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The Alpha flight was delayed maybe 6 months or so awaiting the Air Force to accept the flight termination system. Firefly purchased an "off the shelf" termination system which, through no fault of their own, was held up awaiting certification. Cost them a huge amount of time and money.

One of the 5 Reaver engines quit about 15 seconds into the flight causing the underpower. Remaining 4 engines did a good job of orienting the vehicle but were not enough power.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-2021, 08:55 AM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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Firefly, Reaver...I wonder if the next booster or component will be named Serenity... or maybe an orbiting habitat with sleeping quarters named Inara.
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  #20  
Old 09-07-2021, 10:14 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Solace, Tranquility, Sedator may be good names too.

I stand by my statement of only allowing the RSO having any involvement of explosive abort if they underwrite the cost of the launch vehicle. No BUXX $$, NO control.

DEREGULATE to the point of NO regulation.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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