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  #11  
Old 08-22-2023, 10:24 PM
olDave olDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
Hmm . . . On closer inspection . . .
The entire kit . . . Is it worth $180.00 ?


I'm just a poor retiree on a fixed income. No way.

If the boss lady saw this she would peel part of my hide.
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2023, 07:45 AM
rraeford rraeford is offline
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I found this kit disappointing. The fins for stage two and three are different sizes on the actual rocket - as they are on the larger and more costly NCR kit. On this, they are the same molded units for both. I find the kit price a bit dear for what it offers. Just my opinion.
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  #13  
Old 08-25-2023, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rraeford
I found this kit disappointing. The fins for stage two and three are different sizes on the actual rocket - as they are on the larger and more costly NCR kit. On this, they are the same molded units for both. I find the kit price a bit dear for what it offers. Just my opinion.



Agreed . . .

The kit you pruchased uses the Quest Nike Smoke plastic Fin Cans and an Estes "Big Bertha" nose cone. There are only a couple of 3D-printed items used.

I also concur about the pricing . . . I feel it's over-priced.

Dave F.
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Last edited by Ez2cDave : 08-26-2023 at 08:49 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2023, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rraeford
I found this kit disappointing. The fins for stage two and three are different sizes on the actual rocket - as they are on the larger and more costly NCR kit. On this, they are the same molded units for both. I find the kit price a bit dear for what it offers. Just my opinion.

This kit was an attempt to produce a much lower cost sport-scale version of the far more expensive super-scale version that NCR spent four years creating. The major expense in the super-scale kit was the stereolithographic 3D printed fin cans and interstage parts. In order to reduce the price of this kit to roughly 1/3 that of the super scale kit, the 3-D printed fin cans were replaced by available injection molded Nike fin cans and plywood fins. The overall scale of the kit was determined by the scale of the injection molded Nike fins. The stereolithographic interstage parts and tubes were scaled to match.

I actually think the price of this kit is very fair considering the work that went into it, the scale accuracy and stereolithographic print quality of the 3-D printed parts, and the ease of creating what would otherwise be an extremely difficult prototype to scratch build.

I am personally really grateful that NCR made the effort to make a much more affordable sport-scale version of this great prototype.

Last edited by Gus : 08-26-2023 at 01:19 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2023, 09:04 AM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Gus
The overall scale of the kit was determined by the scale of the injection molded Nike fins. The stereolithographic interstage parts and tubes were scaled to match.


Interesting, since the Quest Nike Smoke fins are FAR from accurate scale. Plus Nike Smoke fins are different from those used on the Argo D-4 Javelin, both in size, and attachment method.

So, NCR then proceeded to produce inaccurate, high-quality 3D-printed components to pair up with the inaccurate, low-quality, injection-molded Quest fin cans ? They also used a commercially-available nose cone and non-airfoiled plywood, Honest John fins and then slapped a $180 price tag on it ( $220, if you buy it from Apogee ).

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Model...Argo-D4-Javelin

Last edited by Ez2cDave : 08-26-2023 at 10:39 PM.
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  #16  
Old 08-28-2023, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
I am personally really grateful that NCR made the effort to make a much more affordable sport-scale version of this great prototype.

Agreed. NCR never claimed that this kit was an accurate scale kit. Saying it was "sport scale" is, for me, like saying "semi-scale." And y'all know that the only objective criteria in "sport scale"is "similarity of outline," which the Nike fin cans do achieve on this prototype.
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  #17  
Old 08-28-2023, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
Agreed. NCR never claimed that this kit was an accurate scale kit. Saying it was "sport scale" is, for me, like saying "semi-scale." And y'all know that the only objective criteria in "sport scale"is "similarity of outline," which the Nike fin cans do achieve on this prototype.


51 SPORT SCALE

51.1 Scope

Sport Scale comprises three events open to any entry that closely resembles an existing or historical guided missile, rocket vehicle, or space vehicle, that has flown under rocket power. The purpose of this competition is to produce an accurate, flying replica of a real rocket powered vehicle that is judged for craftsmanship in construction, finish, and flight performance. Sport Scale differs from Scale in that the dimensions of the entry are not measured.

2 - 11, not included, for brevity.

51.12 Static Judging

51.12.1 Similarity of Outline: 100 points

The competitor is required to submit data to substantiate his/her entry’s visual resemblance to the prototype.

Minimum allowable data consists of:

• A line, tone, or color drawing; or

• One or more clear photographs, halftones, or photo-reproductions of the prototype, sufficient to show the outline and general configuration of the prototype modeled.

51.12.2 Finish, Color, and Markings: 200 points

The competitor should submit data to substantiate his/her model’s fidelity to the prototype. Such as:

• One or more clear photographs, halftones, or photo-reproductions, including at least one in color. The number of these submitted should be sufficient to substantiate additional views of the model on which the color pattern and markings differ significantly.

• Other published pictorial representations, such as a color painting, or a drawing from a magazine.

• A detailed written description and/or drawing (which may be created by the competitor), from verifiable source, of the color scheme and markings, accompanied by a drawing of the prototype on which the color scheme and markings described have been included.

Any entry not accompanied by data substantiating the finish, color, and markings of the prototype must be given zero points for Finish, Color and Markings.

51.12.3 Degree of Difficulty: 200 points

Points must be awarded according to the difficulty experienced by the competitor in building the model and adapting it for flight. Consideration should be given to whether the entry was built from a kit. Points should be awarded for parts and details that were individually constructed by the competitor. To facilitate judging, the competitor should point out difficult assemblies or construction problems in his/her data.

51.12.4 Craftsmanship: 300 points

Points will be awarded for neatness, care in construction, craftsmanship of details, and quality of finish. Consideration should be given to the invisibility of body seams and wood grain, and the accurate reproduction of curved lines and edges. The finish should be free of fingerprints, brush strokes, runs, or other unintentional blemishes, and the paint pattern should be well defined.

13- 15 omitted for brevity

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  #18  
Old 08-28-2023, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
51 SPORT SCALE

etc, etc, etc.



51.1 says that models are not MEASURED . . .

51.10 It does not indicate that they are not SCRUTINIZED.

51.12 "Similarity of Outline" . . . If the photo shows airfoiled Honest John fins and you have "slab fins", you should be docked points. Airfoil shape is a visible "outline". If the "outline" ( size / shape ) of the fins is visibly different from the substantiating data, you should be docked points.

51.2.3 Degree of Difficulty - "Points must be awarded according to the difficulty experienced by the competitor in building the model and adapting it for flight. Consideration should be given to whether the entry was built from a kit."

No "difficulty" for the Fin Cans, you should be docked points for "pre-fab" major components . Because it's a "kit" you should be docked points.

************************************************** *********************

No model, exhibiting characteristics similar to the NCR Javelins ( "pre-fab" ), should be awarded "full points", for the reasons cited above. Note that I said ALL MODELS, no matter whom the manufacturer of the parts / components, and / or "Kits" is.

At the prices NCR is asking for these models, they should, at least, includes a Scale Data packet with each kit, or have that resource downloadable from their website !

Personally, if I were using this model, in Sport Scale competition, I would use the Rocksim outline, since it depicts no "surafce details", plus a "distant photo", for color substantion, for the same reasons ( see images below ).

Dave F.
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Last edited by Ez2cDave : 08-28-2023 at 10:42 AM.
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