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  #11  
Old 01-23-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
Before sticking your nose in this hornet's nest, I would advise caution and contacting the manufacturers first. and maybe the NAR secondly.

If the manufacturers of BP propellant wanted more lenient postal shipping regulations, they would have long ago applied for such. I am talking here specifically about Estes E motors .



I suspect he is not thinking on behalf of motor manufacturers, but for private individuals or small vendors who may want to mail motors. And it is the labeling and permission part he wants to change - no mention in the original post about the hazmat fee. The big guys already have the proper paperwork, so it ceases to be a big deal for them.

That said, I too think this may be an exercise in futility. Mailing and shipping regulations will continue to get stricter, not looser, especially after the latest round of foiled attacks using toner cartridges. Once they implement screening of parcels in air transport, expect many big fines imposed on those who mail motors illegally, either intentionally or out of ignorance of the law.

Some things will never return to the way they were. We used to be able to order guns out of the Sears catalog and have them mailed to us. Never again.


Bill
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  #12  
Old 01-23-2011, 12:35 PM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
If the manufacturers of BP propellant wanted more lenient postal shipping regulations, they would have long ago applied for such. I am talking here specifically about Estes E motors .
Barry specifically said in his exclusive YORF interview that he tried to get ORM-D or some other more lenient classification to no avail. He described the interaction as insect meets large wall.

However he did not have the lawsuit outcome arrow in his quiver either. Also the USPS is a jurisdiction all to itself and can do pretty much whatever it wants and is warranted by a safety record and protocol.

Having everything exempt up to 2KG per unit, 75# per box (or 50), and 1000 LB per "shipment".

DOT should be encouraged to sign onto that treaty as well as NARCAN, HSE, and EU.

International shipping of a consumer commodity with a near perfect safety record should not be a problem. We (users, dealers, vendors) need to be whitelisted.

Jerry
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  #13  
Old 01-23-2011, 12:40 PM
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Oh, and this http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf is what NAR says about the subject.


Bill
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  #14  
Old 01-23-2011, 04:36 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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The most important aspect of shiping motrs is to have the proper identification, packaging and most importanly GROUND TRANSPORTATION ONLY, motors cannot be put onto any aircraft.
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2011, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
The most important aspect of shiping motrs is to have the proper identification, packaging and most importanly GROUND TRANSPORTATION ONLY, motors cannot be put onto any aircraft.
That is partially correct--motors cannot be shipped on *passenger* aircraft. As Bill surmised above, I am only interested in getting the motor-mailing postal regulations that affect individuals and vendors loosened (back to what they were before 9/11).

As explained here (see: http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf -- Thank you, Bill!), motor manufacturers already have blanket permission letters from the Manager of Mailing Standards for shipping motors to vendors and individual buyers, while vendors and individuals have to obtain such a permission letter (which is good for only one year) for *every* shipment of motors they wish to make. I think getting this requirement for individuals and vendors eliminated is a very "do-able" proposition. Regarding the notion that "the regulations will only get stricter and there is nothing we can do to roll them back," I am glad that the Founding Fathers did not share such a fatalistic view in the face of ever-tightening business regulations and taxes that were being imposed by the British government.
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Last edited by blackshire : 01-23-2011 at 09:00 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2011, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
motors cannot be put onto any aircraft.
That's not true. You can put UN-0186 Rocket Motors on aircraft.

Jerry
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  #17  
Old 01-23-2011, 08:53 PM
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I also wanted to add that I was prompted to take action on this motor-mailing issue by what I read in the latest issue of Stuart Lodge's Interspace... (Issue #70) that I received from him this week. (This free e-mail newsletter about European model rocketry activities [with an emphasis of FAI competition model rocketry] is available from Stuart, who could justifiably be called the "G. Harry Stine" of the UK because he almost single-handedly got model rocketry legalized there! Since I don't know if he would want his e-mail address posted on a public forum, I will happily relay the e-mail addresses of any YORF members who would like to subscribe to Interspace... to him--just "PM" me.) In Interspace... #70, Stuart wrote the following about motor shipping regulations:


Grass roots in the Western World

The 11th of September 2001 changed the World as we know it. The terrorist outrages on the World Trade Centre in New York and elsewhere, has had a knock-on effect that we are feeling in Space Modelling--especially 'fly for fun' hobby shop model rocketry--to this very day.

More legislation, especially in the United States, has restricted how rocketry-related products can be transported, which has made life difficult, even for domestic markets in the USA. Exporting hobby shop products like Estes and Quest kits & motors is more difficult and the price of these things in the UK and EU countries has risen to very high levels indeed. The global economic recession has forced EU consumer prices higher still and for the first time, there is a real danger that the activity may end in several countries. Summed up..

Threat.. Unless this situation improves drastically, model rocketry stuff is likely to disappear from the hobby shops, in the UK and other European countries, indirectly hampering the growth of FAI Space Modelling in these lands.
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  #18  
Old 01-23-2011, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
I am only interested in getting the motor-mailing postal regulations that affect individuals and vendors loosened (back to what they were before 9/11).
Or better!!
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  #19  
Old 01-23-2011, 09:27 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Or better!!
Indeed--the shipping regulations for hobby rocket motors should be no more restrictive than the pre-1968 gun laws. Like the leftists, my tactic is one of incrementalism, gradually working toward the desired goal...
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
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  #20  
Old 01-23-2011, 10:00 PM
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Blackshire- I'm behind you 100% and appreciate you making the effort; the other folks that ask you not kick up a hornets' nest have a point too, though, and it's very hard to pick sides. I had a recent exchange with our own illustrious TSA officials regarding the implication of my nephews' transporting flown-models (with BP residue) through the airport as checked-baggage, which resulted in a much dimmer holiday- the family all agreed, given the scattershot response (which was a form letter regarding explosives in general- I'll post if I can find it in my inbox) that it'd be better safe than sorry, so each nephew got a bunch of kits that they had to wait to build until they got back, and we went out and blasted off my own stuff.

That said, it really tweaks my nose to anxiously await my shipment of $200 worth of MPR reloads only to see it labeled as "Toy Propellant Devices"... The mail carrier must think I just LOVE shooting dildos into the neighboring houses!! (Maybe I'm sick, but that's always what I think of when I see that sticker).

However, I'm glad the "Guvament" sees what we do as a "toy hobby"; I recall with horror the discussion of a few years ago about requiring LEUP from BATF to store motors (APCP only I think, although I'm ill-informed)...and if having my hobby classified along with such classic "toys" as the stacking colored rings and teething devices means that I can actually order, receive and participate, I'm willing to look the other way (besides, once I bring it into the house I can always pretend that stupid "toy" label says, "Atmostpheric Research Combustibles"). I guess the point of my reply is that, "Eh, I can see both sides!". Albeit, I have that luxury because, to my knowledge, most of the consumables used in our beloved hobby are produced state-side. Several of the texts I've acquired (all from the early-to-mid '90s) mention the state of the hobby over in Europe, and it seems that our regulations (even post 9/11) are paltry compared to what you guys face...is that true?
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