I appreciate your observations, soopirV. Hobby rocket motors being "thought below contempt" by being considered mere "Toy Propellant Devices" is a good thing, in my view. Also, since I hold the average bureaucrat in contempt, I couldn't care less what they think about my favorite hobby as long as they leave me alone to enjoy it.

I would also be interested in what shipping hurdles European model rocketeers have to jump over to engage in the hobby. As far as the end user is concerned, the German government seems to have a very laissez-faire attitude toward model rocketry. As I've seen in YouTube videos from Germany (and Leo Nutz has confirmed), Weco--a German firework manufacturer that also makes 18 mm black powder model rocket motors as a "side product line"--sells their model rocket motors with *fuses*, which many model rocketeers there use instead of electrical igniters.

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

In Europe you get approvals country by country and some simply accept for example UK-HSE and CE marking as evidence of jumping through hoops. The only approval process is that, and there is no NAR/TRA/CAR/UKRA loop at all to stifle competition or add unnecessary restrictions to product design or deployment. That would be an excellent model here in the USA as we had three willing motor makers when Aerotech caught fire and burned down but all were delayed or banned from the market by TRA TMT to give AT "a leg up". Only CTI overcame all the hurdles of TRA in that era, but did so by getting CAR certifications on motors tested at their own shop!

That should never again be a layer of miscreant behavior in the USA by an alleged "gatekeeper".

Jerry

Hmmm...have you ever considered running for NAR or TRA President? If you or ghrocketman were at the helm of either organization, I'm sure the tone would be libertarian.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

The current NAR President is perhaps the most libertarian (constitutionalist) in my lifetime. I was born the same year as NAR.

TRA has a history of being an "outlaw" or "scofflaw" organization based on their actual policies and actions, and I would not trust them to keep to a policy good for all. They tend to be very selfish and self-centered.

I did my bit by bringing theories to the lawsuit which made it in, and to the federal legislative effort which made it into the final "good draft", which should be revived. I give comments to members of NAR and the NFPA committee in the dim hopes they are listening and understand the leverage value of the ideas.

My ideas have a history of being implemented. The FAA 125g vs 113g limit, and the 1500g vs 453g liftoff limit, and of course NAR adopting HPR itself. It took a while in each case, but occasionally reason superceeds the personalities involved. Not often enough. There is always a political and personal cost to the person suggesting "outlandish" ideas, such as that APCP is not an explosive because as used for its common and intended purpose it CANNOT explode. Now settled federal precedent. Thank goodness.

That ruling should immediately be applied to other "regulators". Price is no object.

Jerry

The regs seem pretty reasonable to me with exception of that permission letter. If that requirement were dropped, consumer motor shipments via USPS would be pretty simple. I don't see what value the permission letter brings to the process or what would be lost if it were eliminated. So good luck .... I hope someone listens!

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Tim Wilson

Thank you. I have received several motor orders by mail in the last few months (as has "The Red Couch" store next door to my apartment building), and all of the parcels were packed in exactly the same ways as I always packed motors--in ordinary "sandwiched interior-corrugated pasteboard" boxes with either styrofoam "peanuts," plastic bubble wrap, or simply wadded-up newspapers used as the cushioning materials. It's totally ridiculous that when Estes and Quest mail motors packed in these ways it is considered safe, but if you or I or a hobby shop mail motors packed in the very same ways with the same notice labels it is considered unsafe. (I could understand this distinction if motor parcels required some special, chemically exotic cushioning material that only professional freight-packers could package properly.) If nothing else, it is an example of "nanny-state" thinking that smacks of discrimination based on status.

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Did you meet with the congresscritter? Did anything come of it?

I'm late to the discussion, but I too applaud your efforts on this topic.

Darn tootin' it would be Libertarian if I was at the helm.
Regulations would only exist in the minimum and only to prevent immediate likely threat to permanent boldily harm or to keep bureaucrats at bay.

Certification process would be like the old days if at all...once you certified with an H or above, you can buy and fly ANYTHING including all EX.
If it crashes and burns, it crashes and burns....tough luck, build another.
Fliers and spectators would have to sign iron-clad waivers signing off all rights to sue even if ANY and ALL precautions for safety are blatently ignored.
If ya can't handle that kind of heat, keep yer butt out of our kitchen.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, TURMOIL, FIASCOS, and HAVOC !

While I have no complaints about the current NAR President, I would be pleased if *you* held that office in the future. I for one would not be upset if you brought back the lead NAR Standard Payload.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Thank you, Jeff. In February I met with Congressman Don Young's State Director and with his Fairbanks Office Manager (whom a disabled Vietnam combat veteran friend of mine and I have gotten to know pretty well, as I have helped him with his Social Security Disability Insurance [SSDI] case).

In addition to a prepared "talking points letter" with print-outs of the relevant U.S. Postal Service regulations that govern the mailing of hobbyist rocket motors, I gave them an assembled Estes Dragonite, a Semroc Start kit, and several loose Estes motors. I explained the pre-9/11 and post-9/11 motor mailing regulations, and they heartily agreed that the current motor-mailing regulations are ridiculous and a prototypical example of burdensome government regulations that unnecessarily stifle commerce--which is also an issue that interests Rep. Young. It also helped that Rep. Young's State Director was familiar with model rocketry, having built and flown an Estes Alpha when he was a boy (he initially thought the Semroc Start [which looks like an Alpha] was an Alpha)!

At one point he picked up one of the loose Estes motors, smiled, and said to the Fairbanks Office Manager: "Maybe we should send one of these to Don Young using the frank [the Congressional mail service] to prove the point?" That day I was there with my Vietnam veteran friend regarding his SSDI case, and I brought up the motor-mailing issue after we had discussed his case.

Because my friend's SSDI case has taken several years to slowly wind its way through the arcane administrative "machinery" (which has taken up a lot of the Fairbanks Office Manager's time with research, writing letters to the Social Security Administration on his behalf, etc. [leading up to Congressional hearings on this issue, which affects many veterans]), I have waited to follow up on the motor-mailing issue. She did say, however, that she was having a (previously-scheduled) meeting with the Postmaster General and that she would bring up the motor-mailing issue with him. I will touch base with her this week and see what's up with it.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR