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  #11  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:28 PM
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Teleflite's books ("Building Your Own Rocket Motors" and "Amateur Rocket Motor Construction") are concerned with black powder motors. David Sleeter, the owner of the Teleflite Corporation, wrote both books. His sugar rocket pamphlet was called "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket," and the Microsond 1 rocket plans and instructions were provided with it. "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket" pamphlet is online here (see: http://balloons.space.edu/ndra/nickle.html and http://www.alphalink.com.au/~brucej/nickle.htm ). Also, speaking of sugar rockets:

An amateur rocketry project group called "Sugar Shot to Space" ("SS2S," see: http://sugarshot.org/ ) is developing a space-capable sounding rocket that is powered by sugar propellant (as they refer to it, "The first amateur rocket with amateur propellant to reach space"), and they have test-flown a large sub-scale test vehicle. The relatively low ISP (specific impulse) of the sugar propellant (which has the advantages of being cheap and relatively safe to prepare and handle) is evidenced by the large size of the space-capable rocket, as is shown in the comparative sizes drawing on their web site.

At the risk of being excommunicated from the NAR and one day finding myself pulling coal wagons in a very warm place, I think building small, home-made sugar rockets of the type covered in "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket" is a safe and educational activity for individual children and youth groups such as Scout troops, 4-H Clubs, and Industrial Arts classes, as long as it is done under adult supervision. Such an activity teaches children about chemistry, materials, making & using tools, following detailed directions, factory mass production techniques (making multiple motors at one time is covered in the pamphlet), how to organize a workshop for efficient utilization of space and materials, and safety procedures. Equally important (especially in this instant-gratification, short-attention span "twittering-and-texting age"), children who make and use sugar propellant rockets learn patience, the joys of delayed gratification, and the satisfaction of making and flying something that they made from scratch, using their own hands and minds.
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Last edited by blackshire : 06-03-2011 at 05:57 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Teleflite's book (called either "Making Your Own Rocket Motors" or "How to Make Your Own Rocket Motors") is concerned with black powder motors. Their sugar rocket pamphlet was called "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket," and the Microsond 1 rocket plans and instructions were provided with it. "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket" pamphlet is online here (see: http://balloons.space.edu/ndra/nickle.html and http://www.alphalink.com.au/~brucej/nickle.htm ). Also, speaking of sugar rockets:

An amateur rocketry project group called "Sugar Shot to Space" (see: http://sugarshot.org/ ) is working on a space-capable sounding rocket that is powered by sugar propellant, and they have test-flown a large sub-scale test vehicle. The relatively low ISP (specific impulse) of the sugar propellant (which has the advantages of being cheap and relatively safe to prepare and handle) is evidenced by the large size of the space-capable rocket, as shown in the comparative sizes drawing on their web site.



Oh yeah, that's right I forgot. The book is dedicated to Black powder...
That's right then, I don't have the sugar rocket manual as a certainty. There you go, as you now have a well documented source!
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Raygun
Oh yeah, that's right I forgot. The book is dedicated to Black powder...
That's right then, I don't have the sugar rocket manual as a certainty. There you go, as you now have a well documented source!
I was dissuaded from trying home-made black powder motors when I read "Making Your Own Rocket Motors," as Step 1 involved fabricating a thick steel plate explosion shield to be installed above the hand-ramming press! The sugar rocket propellant is much more benign. It is mixed moist, and as long as it is hand-mixed (not using an electric blender) in a plastic tub with a plastic spatula, it can be safely mixed, handled, and loaded into the rocket motor cases (which are made of rolled, gummed paper packing tape) at one's kitchen table. The finished and loaded sugar rocket motors are approximately the size of 13 mm mini motors.
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All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Last edited by blackshire : 06-03-2011 at 06:18 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2011, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygun
Terry,
I am not aware there existed a specific comprehensive manual for 'the five cent rocket'. I do own the How to make your own sugar rocket book by Teleflite Corp. ,dedicated to low-to-mid power sugar rocket engines and their construction. This is book is about engine construction and propellant formula only and no mention of rocket vehicles other than ' the 5 cent' on my separate leaflet which I posted. I think earlier in the post there was a reference to a pamphlet(?)--Are you sure this is what you are looking for?
Kevin


Not sure what I meant actually. I have a text file, taken from an online source here:


http://balloons.space.edu/ndra/nickle.html

I thought this was either a manual or pamphlet ...

And he also had another book/manual...? Not 2004's Amateur Rocket Motor Construction

back in the late 1970's early 80's?

http://www.amazon.com/Building-Your...s/dp/B000IY6F20

http://estesrocketsstoreok.co.cc/Te...ration-the.html

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  #15  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
At the risk of being excommunicated from the NAR and one day finding myself pulling coal wagons in a very warm place, I think building small, home-made sugar rockets of the type covered in "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket" is a safe and educational activity for individual children and youth groups such as Scout troops, 4-H Clubs, and Industrial Arts classes, as long as it is done under adult supervision. Such an activity teaches children about chemistry, materials, making & using tools, following detailed directions, factory mass production techniques (making multiple motors at one time is covered in the pamphlet), how to organize a workshop for efficient utilization of space and materials, and safety procedures. Equally important (especially in this instant-gratification, short-attention span "twittering-and-texting age"), children who make and use sugar propellant rockets learn patience, the joys of delayed gratification, and the satisfaction of making and flying something that they made from scratch, using their own hands and minds.



The powers-that-be at NAR, at least when Bunny was president (I do not know about Trip Barber), has always said, "If you have a desire for NAR to support motor making, write up a detailed proposal and submit it to the board. We will give it due consideration. But it had better be well thought out."

Given some of today's concerns, preventing wildfire is as important a consideration as avoiding injury and property damage. One thing NAR will be concerned about which the TRA Research Code is silent on is safe practices for the propellant making process itself, not just the flying and static testing of the resulting motors.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it...


Bill
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2011, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
The powers-that-be at NAR, at least when Bunny was president (I do not know about Trip Barber), has always said, "If you have a desire for NAR to support motor making, write up a detailed proposal and submit it to the board. We will give it due consideration. But it had better be well thought out."

Given some of today's concerns, preventing wildfire is as important a consideration as avoiding injury and property damage. One thing NAR will be concerned about which the TRA Research Code is silent on is safe practices for the propellant making process itself, not just the flying and static testing of the resulting motors.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it...


Bill
I wasn't even -entertaining- the idea of trying to get the NAR to officially sanction motor making of any kind by individuals or groups. If a teacher, a Scout troop leader, or a 4-H Club leader is interested in making sugar rocket motors as a project, he or she need not get permission from the NAR. I was just referring to the probability that the NAR takes a dim view of *any* motor making (even involving only sugar motors), and that they would likely not be pleased for NAR members such as myself to be positively disposed toward motor making.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Last edited by blackshire : 06-05-2011 at 01:18 AM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
I wasn't even -entertaining- the idea of trying to get the NAR to officially sanction motor making of any kind by individuals or groups. If a teacher, a Scout troop leader, or a 4-H Club leader is interested in making sugar rocket motors as a project, he or she need not get permission from the NAR. I was just referring to the probability that the NAR takes a dim view of *any* motor making (even involving only sugar motors), and that they would likely not be pleased for NAR members such as myself to be positively disposed toward motor making.



Totally not true. At least one member of the NAR board is an avid EXer.

If NAR sanctioned the making of sugar motors, then those can be flown at NAR club launches and may become more popular. Also, said teacher, scout or 4-H leader may have an easier time getting a place to fly with NAR landowner insurance available.

NAR currently has a volunteer problem. They do not have enough people to do all they would like to do, so they are leaving alone those things they do not feel are essential or one of the current volunteers has a personal interest. EXers within NAR so far are happy to do it with TRA sanction. Hence my thought that if someone interested in a NAR sanction for making sugar motors would do the thorough legwork needed to make it happen, the odds of getting it are significantly better than the current zero.


Bill
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: countdown begin cr dup . 1- ?dup 0= until cr ." Launch!" cr ;

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  #18  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
EXers within NAR so far are happy to do it with TRA sanction.
I think that's one of the keys to NAR not being into EX...er...research Supply and demand. Right now, I think, at the national level, there's not enough demand to justify a 2nd large organization supporting that aspect of the hobby.

In truth, what's even more important is local support, regardless of national sanction. It seems that having some others to share recipes, techniques, safety procedures, equipment, etc, is more important than whether the NAR supports it. I think that's the real key.

Dwelling on that, it seems to me that most of the accidents I hear about happen to loners. Seems to me it's best to have someone to help you, if for no other reason, than to extinguish your pants after you blow the garage door off the house

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Old 06-05-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill
If NAR sanctioned the making of sugar motors, then those can be flown at NAR club launches and may become more popular.

Agreed.

That said, if the NAR ever sanctioned research, my guess is they'd do APCP first, since it seems to be the safest of all the common propellant types (not to mention the most potent).

Doug

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  #20  
Old 06-05-2011, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
Totally not true. At least one member of the NAR board is an avid EXer.
That is good to know. However, having a few EXers or pro-EXers on the NAR board can't change the organization's official policy toward making motors if their views are minority views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
If NAR sanctioned the making of sugar motors, then those can be flown at NAR club launches and may become more popular. Also, said teacher, scout or 4-H leader may have an easier time getting a place to fly with NAR landowner insurance available.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
NAR currently has a volunteer problem. They do not have enough people to do all they would like to do, so they are leaving alone those things they do not feel are essential or one of the current volunteers has a personal interest. EXers within NAR so far are happy to do it with TRA sanction. Hence my thought that if someone interested in a NAR sanction for making sugar motors would do the thorough legwork needed to make it happen, the odds of getting it are significantly better than the current zero.


Bill
Also agreed, but for health, stamina, and financial reasons, I am not the one to do this. My thoughts regarding sugar rocket building & flying projects were along the lines of what the Girl Scouts are doing here in Fairbanks with regard to rifle competitions:

The Boy Scouts have a rifle marksmanship merit badge program, and our local Girl Scouts also wanted to be able to earn marksmanship badges, but the national Girl Scouts organization doesn't have such a merit badge program for political reasons. The local Girl Scout outpost got together with a local firearms safety instructor who also teaches a concealed-carry handgun course, and they formulated an unofficial (as far as the national Girl Scouts organization is concerned) Girl Scouts rifle marksmanship merit badge program.

A sugar rocket building & flying youth program for Scouts, 4-H Clubs, and schools could be handled similarly outside of the NAR. I know (as Doug Sams posted above) that making composite propellant motors is also an option--in fact, I've read about a motor-making school called "Rocket Ranch" where the students make their own composite motors (I believe the article was in "Air & Space Smithsonian" magazine). Making composite motors is likely more appropriate for older (Explorer or Eagle) Scouts, while younger Scouts could safely (and cheaply) make sugar propellant motors, particularly the mini motor-size ones in "The Incredible Five Cent Sugar Rocket" pamphlet.
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Last edited by blackshire : 06-05-2011 at 09:39 PM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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